Breadcrumbs

Elias Lanz & Sean Lunsford
Breadcrumbs

Elias and Sean grew up together overseas before studying engineering in Germany and the US respectively. Breadcrumbs is their weekly chat about things past, present, and future.

  1. 06/16/2021

    Neanderthal Nostalgia Trip

    Sean spends a week in a (very nice) cave and recounts his exploration of Cappadocia/Kapadokya. Links and Show Notes Rock-cut architecture of Cappadocia - Wikipedia Tuff - Wikipedia Göreme Open Air Museum Churches of Göreme - Wikipedia Apse - Wikipedia Transept - Wikipedia Nave - Wikipedia Derinkuyu underground city - Wikipedia Basilica Cistern - Wikipedia Aynalı Church Photo Gallery by Dick Osseman at pbase.com Transcript Sean: So remember how we joked that time about me pretending to record in a cave? Elias: Yeah. It was when we were talking about my trip to Wilhemshaven, and I was walking with all the background noise, and you were mimicking that. You did a great job on that in post. And then when we re-released the episode as a shorter version, it was the darling we couldn’t cut, but probably should have. Sean: So, I actually am coming to you from a cave this time, sort of. Elias: Okay. So like a cave cave? Like I’m either picturing some fancy hotel, which tries to be a cave, or like some neanderthal nostalgia kind of trip that you’re on. But it’s probably the first, because I don’t think you’re wearing a loincloth and going hunting game and sitting around a fire in a damp, cold cave. Sean: No, tempting, but no. Megan and I are staying in a cave hotel. This is five levels carved into the hillside. Reception’s actually on top and then you have these levels of rooms terraced down to the valley floor. So we’re on the fourth of those. Elias: Okay. Impressive. But of course the most important question is, does it come with cave acoustics? Otherwise you can just forget it. Sean: Yeah. So if I pick up my laptop and my mic here, I walk back into our bathroom, which is pretty recessed into the hill, and particularly back here in our shower—yeah, there’s a lot of echo here and I’m not doing it in post. Elias: Yeah, that sounds impressive. I mean, not just the natural reverb, but the whole fact that you’re staying in a cave and it’s a cave hotel and that, so are these all new things carved into the rock side, or are they old caves that are now being remodeled? Sean: No ours is new. Most of the hotels are new or that there’ve been some remodeled from older things. And the hotels themselves are all patterned after much, much older caves. And those were not hotels. Those were churches or monasteries or homes and, some even like whole underground cities. But yeah, these cave hotels—we’re in one of easily dozens that are an iconic part of this region of central Turkey called Cappadocia. This is Breadcrumbs. I’m Sean. Elias: And I’m Elias. Sean and I grew up abroad and still enjoy seeing new places and thinking about how different cultures interact. Sean: Today, I’m sharing about what I’ve seen, experienced, and learned about the historical caves of Cappadocia. So both of us were on the road when we recorded that intro. But that was a couple of weeks ago. We’re back home now. I’m recording from my studio again with considerably less reverb. But anyway, how familiar are you with Cappadocia? Elias: Well, the first thing that comes to mind is the address in 1 Peter, the letter in the New Testament. It’s a region in what’s modern day Turkey, that Peter wrote this letter to, and as far as I know, I don’t think Paul ever made it there. But that’s my context to Cappado-kia, -chia? This is a good question. So I’ve always known it as Cappado-chia. Sean: Yeah. I had always called it Cappado-shia before coming here. But then since being here we’ve taken on the Turkish—so the Turkish spelling is Kapadokya, and that’s how it’s pronounced, even though I continue to spell it the English way most of the time. But anyway, so this region is a major tourist destination. It’s known for, again, as we talked about its cave hotels, but also balloon rides and rock formations. But it was also a major center of Christianity back in the Roman and Byzantine eras, going back to that church you mentioned in 1 Peter, and what’s really interesting to see today is how that history intersects with the geography of the region, specifically like you have these dwellings for monks and hermits and you have churches and you have even entire underground cities carved into the living rock. Elias: So I’m trying to wrap my head around this, that I’m sure I heard what you said right. Okay, hotels and other things, but like underground cities and all carved into rock? How am I supposed to picture this? What’s this rock like, that you’re not building a house next to the mountain, but into the mountain? Sean: Yeah, so I had to look this up while we were there because we wondered that too. It’s actually this volcanic rock known as tuff—T-U-F-F—made of ash that’s lithified. It is a very gritty kind of texture, almost like rough concrete or something, so it is very different from a lot of other rock. And so apparently in Cappadocia, there were eruptions from several volcanoes in the region over centuries in prehistoric times, and these blanketed the whole region. After that, you had flowing water eroding that rock away and carving out these iconic spires that the area’s known for now. Despite its name, tuff seems to be a pretty soft rock to dig into, which is why the hillsides and all those rock formations that make up the landscape are dotted with caves—only a handful of which are natural. Elias: So I get the idea that the rock is soft enough that you can cut into it, but it doesn’t completely fall apart. And of course, right away, I’m thinking this must have incredible architectural consequences, so these must look very different than your normal run-of-the-mill house or dwelling or anything, really, just because of the way that they’re made by basically subtracting stuff, rather than adding stuff to where there isn’t anything. Yeah, so like, what are the caves like? Sean: Yeah. it’s a little bit of a two-edged sword because it’s so easily carved and eroded, a lot of the definition of those shapes is pretty rounded off. So I feel like, yeah, there may have been a time when you had sharper edges and you could have had a better sense of what things looked like, but you basically have a whole range of shapes and sizes here. We saw a lot of these in what they call the Open Air Museum, which is this whole settlement full of hermitages and monasteries and churches. There’s a big spire, when you first come in, that’s just peppered with holes on every side and going all the way up. And they say this was like a nunnery or something. And then there are a bunch of other cliff faces and rocks with all these other caves in them. A lot of these are just little one or two room dwellings. And so, like you said more subtractive: you had beds or shelves just carved into the walls, or you had holes dug into the floor that could have a fire or a wine press or whatever. And then one particular interesting feature we saw was: a number of the bigger rooms had this kind of raised platform with these long round troughs cut into it—basically the shape of a race track, if you can picture that. And it took us a while to figure out that these were actually dining tables for a large group of people. Like you could easily fit 20 people around this. And so you end up sitting around the edge of this with your feet dangling into the trough and the negative space in the middle of this racetrack was the table. But we, we did wonder like how does this work if someone’s on that back wall and needs to get out in the middle of the meal? Do they go all the way around? Do they have to crawl across the table? I don’t know. Elias: Yeah. So this is, this is fun also thinking of that modern problem that we all know so well and how they might’ve dealt with that, or I dunno, if it even was a problem. But of course, what I’m way more interested in here is like that table design, like, oh my goodness. Like, yes, it wouldn’t have won some, I don’t know, Red Dot or iF Design Award or whatever, but it’s brilliant. It’s so cool because it’s a novel way to think of what a table even is. The first thing that came to my mind was this thing that we had in an engineering class, which was actually one of the few design classes we had. It was about how to come up with ideas, and so you take what you’re making or what you’re kind of trying to come up with, an element of it, and then you basically go through the different extremes, like the different types or ways or shapes that you could make it, or simply just the number. And one of the examples there was the table and how many legs you could have on the table. And you can picture this: a table with one leg and then a table with, well, two legs can be fastened on the wall; table with three legs is less common, but four, you can see, and five and six and whatever, if it’s longer. And then of course, just because you got to go to the extremes, you think of a table with zero legs and then you, you know, hang it with chains on the roof. And it’s kind of, I don’t know, it’s just with zero legs, and then you can basically work at this table and you can, I don’t know, raise it or lower it, or you can swing it back and forth, and might be useful to be able to sweep underneath easily. I’d never thought about this though. And I think that’s always cool, when you think of like, oh, I’ve actually used my system to think of every possible table in the world. Yeah, and then you visit Cappadocia, or your friend does, and you see that people made a table that your system didn’t come up with. So I guess my question here now is really important. Is this a table with one leg or is this a table with infinite legs? Sean: Yeah, I definitely, I think I saw you going to the infinite legs, as you’re extrapolating here, because it does kind of feel like that—they all merge into one or something, right? Elias: So now that

    20 min
  2. 03/02/2021

    The Calculus of Detergent Choices

    Taking a page from a different genre of podcast to try something new, Elias and Sean look at the economics of budget airlines. Links and Show Notes Transcript Elias: So in my time traveling around Europe and all, I’ve actually flown Ryanair quite a lot. The detergent they use on the airplanes between flights is just nasty stuff. So I ended up getting into the habit of putting something into my bag, like a deodorant stick or toothpaste or something that would smell strong and I could rub below my nose so I wouldn’t be so overwhelmed by whatever this detergent smell is. I can’t even quite describe it. Sean: So why use a, uh, detergent that you have to overpower with a stick of deodorant? Elias: Yeah. I mean, I think—okay. Ryanair is a budget airline and maybe they’re just saying, okay, well, everyone’s paying less so they can buy their own deodorant sticks and survive the plane. I don’t know for sure. We did actually get a brief intro and business model of budget airlines in a design class, but that didn’t cover the calculus of detergent choices. So my guess is because it’s cheap and it has a quick drying time. This is kind of just me trying to put myself into some person’s shoes, making this decision. Maybe there’s even something with the application—like they have some machine or something that makes it time-saving and it only works with this detergent. I mean, Ryanair definitely has less layover time. So, you know, every minute counts and there’s probably something. It’s probably more the time savings actually than the cost savings, but of course, time savings are cost savings. Sean: Well, I don’t know. I guess as long as everyone just brings their deodorant along, hopefully that’s worth it. Elias: Yeah. I mean, perhaps everyone else is olfactorily wired differently than me, and this detergent is a sweet-smelling perfume to them, but I think it’s more probable that people fly just because it’s cheap. Ryanair’s a budget around after all, so they can kind of get away with that. But I mean, budget is in the name and it’s true. The cheapest flight I ever booked was from Basel to London for 12 euros. This is Breadcrumbs. I’m Elias. Sean: And I’m Sean. Elias and I have been podcasting together for more than four years now. We’re trying a new format here. Elias: Today, we’re talking about budget airlines and sharing some of our travel stories along the way. Sean: See, I haven’t been on these as much as it sounds like you have—budget airlines, that is. My impression is they are more of a European thing, though I have flown something like a budget airline in the States. So they’re maybe starting to catch on a bit there. When I think of flying budget airlines, most of that has been between Europe and Turkey: a couple of times visiting you and on the way to visit my parents here before moving. Besides even less leg room, I remember having to pay for each piece of luggage, snack, sandwich, drink, all that, but then the base ticket was pretty cheap, so I guess, again, it was worth it. Of course, that said, most of my flights since then have been Turkish Airlines, transatlantic, and it’s a very different experience: nice service and good meals and in-flight entertainment and everything. You get what you pay for, I guess. But you mentioned that you did hear somebody explain kind of the business model of budget airlines and how they turn a profit for so cheap. Elias: Yeah, we had a bit of a class where it was one of the examples that the guy gave, just to help us to think differently about how to approach a business model, how to think about customers and the offering that you have. And it was very good in a design kind of way to take a bit of a different perspective on things. Of course, you know me, I always like to take a bit of a step back when I explain things. So you need to start by asking just what a flight is. Sean: Like a plane with a bunch of people on it? Elias: Yes. Yes. Of what service is the flight to each person? Sean: I guess they have somewhere they want to go and the plane is how they get there. Elias: Yeah. Yes. I mean, all of these, all of these things are true. The flight is a way to get from A to B. It’s not the only way to get from A to B. Before Ryanair and EasyJet and all those came along flying was different. And when it started, it was more of a luxury. It meant there was no economy class and flight was an experience, and it was marketed as such. And of course not to say people didn’t get from A to B, but it was kind of like a package deal, and part of that was the pleasantries and that’s what flying meant. So, thinking of past flights, can you recreate that moment of decision? What led you to purchase the flight and how did you go about that? Sean: I mean, the last flights I booked were going back to the States after I’d been here a year. So I’d kind of already planned on making that trip even before leaving. I kinda just figured after I’d been here, I’d want to go back and see some people again. So I do remember it was kind of this whole big thing because I had the flights to and from the States and then a couple of domestic flights in there. And then I was also planning on renting some cars to get between some other destinations. Cause I was kind of all over the country, or at least the Eastern half of it, in about five weeks. So yeah, there was this whole puzzle going on of looking at when the different flights could go and what they would cost and where do I need to be to get from A to B to C to D in the time I have and all of that. So it was quite an operation. Elias: Yeah. So you pointed out there quite nicely how especially longer trips can get quite complicated and it’s really about getting from A to B in the most efficient, appropriate way possible. And you know, sometimes you take a rental car but for a lot of times, the trip that’s most appropriate or the thing that you need is a flight, and then it’s a question of what flight and what kind of flight. And sometimes you just need to go somewhere and sometimes you want to go somewhere. So things people need, they’re willing to spend more on. The demand is not price sensitive. If like, if you have to go somewhere, well, you know, you’re going to take the price. You might take the cheapest price available, but you’re definitely going to go there. If you want to go there, well, you’ll just have to look at what the price is and then see if it’s worth it because it’s not set. Sean: Yeah. I mean, for me, in a sense, that trip was not quite a need need, but again, it was kind of a something that I planned on doing and committed to doing and so it was going to happen. And honestly, you know, when I was crossing the ocean, like sure, I was looking for the good price as far as timing, but was happy to pay for the experience of a nicer airline, but I can certainly see where—when offered a really good deal, you might take a flight where you wouldn’t have to begin with. Elias: Yeah. I mean, that’s exactly the value proposition there and what we’re getting at now is the interior of the plane is a lot less on your mind when you’re making that decision. And so you can, you know, you can place a Lufthansa plane next to a Ryanair plane and play spot the difference, but you’re playing the wrong game and, you know, you can see their cramped seats and the advertisements on the Ryanair plane, and of course, less space for cabin luggage and all that stuff. And then you can ask yourself, well, why would anyone fly with a budget airline? But no one makes the decision while standing on the plane. And far more importantly, it’s not the thing that you think about. You don’t conjure up images and dream of sitting in a plane. I mean, you get a bit of it now with the pandemic thing and people just, you know, being nostalgic for airplane food, but like, it’s not really what the airline’s selling. They’re selling the opportunity and holidays and dreams and all those things at a low budget. And making the getting there as cheap as, like, a train ticket to the next city or as a good meal out—I could go for a good meal out or I could fly to London, you know, then you really start to think about it: “I could go to London.” So who are a budget airline’s customers primarily? Picture a pie chart. It’s completely filled in, and that represents basically all the people in the world, or let’s say all the people that reasonably could board a plane. You know how we think about stuff, like just, plant a flag at one extreme. So if we’re looking at this pie chart and now picture on that slice that represents the percentage of people who fly once a year, how big is that slice? Sean: Hm. I mean, at first I feel like it’s gotta be a lot, but I don’t know. Maybe there’s some like, not quite confirmation bias there, but you know, we think more about people that do travel than all the many, many, many people who don’t, I guess. Yeah. Elias: And also we belong to people who have traveled a lot. So it’s not a lot. Of course, how do you know this or say this? The couple very back of the envelope things I saw was like 10%, maybe 5%, somewhere around there, which I think is already quite a lot. So the question then is: if that’s what it is now, what was it like 10, 20, 30 years ago before budget airlines took off, Sean: Hm. I mean, definitely smaller. Elias: Yeah. Yeah. So it’s definitely smaller. Of course, even without budget airlines, you would assume that over time more and more people would fly because airlines do take off more, but it is noticeable that budget airlines were a big part in that. And that gets at the crux of their business model. So—I mean, I don’t think budget airline people walked into an elevator pitch with a flip chart and a pie chart on it—I love that image—but that’s the easiest way I think

    16 min

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Elias and Sean grew up together overseas before studying engineering in Germany and the US respectively. Breadcrumbs is their weekly chat about things past, present, and future.

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