Deviate Unknown

“My parents passed away and it created this sense of recklessness in me, but in a positive way: I wanted to create a travel experience and push myself and learn about myself. Because you never know how long you’re gonna be around for.”
–Daniel Troia
In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Daniel talk about why Daniel chose to bicycle across America with no money or food, the privileges that set him apart from people who have to do it out of necessity, and how this kind of journey is a time-honored undertaking for people experiencing grief (2:00); the kinds of people Daniel met on the trip, how his vulnerability put him into contact with new and unfamiliar people and communities, and how visiting places in person increases empathy with the people who live here (12:30); what Daniel discovered while “dumpster diving,” and other surprises he found on the road (24:30); what it was like to self-document the trip DIY style with camera glasses, a GoPro, and a drone, and what experiences didn’t make it into the film (30:30); the lessons that Daniel brought home from the trip, where he plans to travel next, and his advice for people who want to create their own bike journey (44:00); and an “Easter Egg” about Daniel’s experiences in Kansas (49:00).
Daniel Troia (@the_travelin_dude) is the director of We Are All in This Together, which documents his cross-country USA bicycle journey with no food and no money, in search of human connection.
Notable Links:

The Kindness of Strangers, by Mike McIntyre (book)
The Epic of Gilgamesh (ancient Mesopotamian epic poem)
Wild: From Lost to Found on the Pacific Crest Trail, by Cheryl Strayed (memoir)
The Way (2010 Martin Sheen movie)
Dumpster diving (method of gathering discarded food)
Dude Making a Difference, by Robin Greenfield
Aldi (multinational discount supermarket chain)
Tom’s Cartoons (art by unhoused person in Arcata, CA)
Camera glasses (wearable camera)
GoPro (action camera)
East St. Louis (city in Illinois)
Two Wheels To Freedom, by Daniel Troia (film)
Paterson (city in New Jersey)

The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber.
Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

“The parent’s job as teacher on the road is to just create surface area between your kid and yourself and the world.”  –Julie Frieder
In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Julie talk about what a “Wonder Year” is, how she got involved with family travel, and why traveling with children is possible and enriching for everyone involved (1:30); how to get started planning a family vagabonding journey, where to go, how long to go, how to save money, and why travel is good for your mental health (14:00); how to involve your kids in planning a travel journey, why being open to serendipity can wok better than micromanaging activities, what “worldschooling” is, and how to plan education activities on the road (27:00); how parents can learn alongside their kids on the road, and how to deal with challenges like homesickness and culture shock (39:30); the task of returning home after a long journey, and how travel makes us better parents (46:00).
Julie Frieder is the coauthor (along with Angela Heisten and Annika Paradise) of Wonder Year: A Guide to Long-Term Family Travel and Worldschooling.
Notable Links:

The Vagabond’s Way, by Rolf Potts (book)
Hydrogeology (geology focusing on groundwater)
Temple Grandin (animal behaviorist)
“Awe Is Good for Your Brain,” by Florence Williams (Outside article)
WWOOF (World Wide Opportunities on Organic Farms)
Unschooling (experiential learning method)
HSLDA (homeschooling resource website)
Worldschoolers (Facebook group)
Lands of Lost Borders , by Kate Harris (book)

The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber.
Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

“Look at any photo from a moment of supposed zeitgeist in American history, and it will be clear that not everyone in that moment represented the cutting-edge of culture.”
–Rolf Potts
In this essay episode of Deviate, Rolf talks about why he enjoys listening to Rob Harvilla’s podcast 60 Songs That Explain the ’90s at double-speed, but that he’s disappointed Rob has never alluded to Rolf’s own 1990s grunge band, Swizzlefish (1:45); Rolf describes his move from Kansas to the Pacific Northwest in the year 1990, at a very specific moment in America’s cultural zeitgeist (10:30); the origins of Swizzlefish, and how its formation with Rolf’s friends Ryan and Steve was compromised by the fact that Rolf and Steve were in no way musical virtuosos (18:30); the circumstances of the first Swizzlefish live show, and how it caused an immediate controversy on Rolf’s small Christian college campus (30:00); what Portland’s indie-rock scene was like in early 1993, and what kinds of bands Rolf and his friends saw there (35:00); how the second Swizzlefish concert resulted in the band getting banned from playing on its own college campus (42:00); Swizzlefish’s spring 1993 performance at Portland’s X-Ray Cafe, and how the middle-class normalcy of its fans evoked something true about grunge music (49:00); Rolf’s eventual move to Seattle to work as a landscaper, his experiences at a 1993 Nirvana show there, and the curiously enduring legacy of Swizzlefish more than 30 years later (57:30); and Rolf talks to music journalist Rob Harvilla about Rolf’s brief appearance in the 1992 horror movie Dr. Giggles, their respective experiences with 1990s music, and whether or not Kurt Cobain would have liked them (1:06:25).
The 1993 Swizzlefish album Big Time Loser is available for streaming on Spotify, Apple Music, and YouTube Music.
Rob Harvilla (@harvilla) is the creator of 60 Songs That Explain the ’90s, a book and a podcast that explore the pop culture of the decade through music.
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Bands, musicians, and songs mentioned:

“Love Buzz” (Shocking Blue song covered on Nirvana’s Bleach)
Elliott Smith (singer-songwriter from Portland, Oregon)
Heatmiser (Portland indie rock band)
“Smells Like Teen Spirit” (Nirvana song)
Jane’s Addiction (alternative rock band from LA)
Mother Love Bone (Seattle rock band)
Kurt Cobain (lead-singer of Nirvana)
Jackyl (American hair-metal band)
“Princess in a Cobweb” (song by Drunk at Abi’s)
Sprinkler (Portland indie-rock band)
“Should I Stay or Should I Go” (song by The Clash)
Carrie Brownstein (musician and comedian)
Bikini Kill (pioneering “riot grrrl” punk band)
Big Daddy Meat Straw (Portland indie-rock band)
“Smells Like Nirvana” (parody song by Weird Al Yankovic)
“Holiday of Sparks” (song by Dimbulb)
“Rock Collection” (song by Pond)
Everclear (Portland rock band)
Mia Zapata (Seattle punk singer murdered in 1993)
“Scentless Apprentice” (1993 Nirvana song)
Kim Deal (Ohio-born musician for The Pixies and The Breeders)
Dookie (1994 Green Day album)
924 Gilman Street (all-ages punk-rock club in Berkeley)
Rancid (Berkeley punk band)
Avail (melodic hardcore punk band from Virginia)

Other links:

Malcolm McLaren (promoter and manager of the Sex Pistols)
Hype! (1996 music documentary directed by Doug Pray)
Twin Peaks (TV drama created by David Lynch)
Grunge (alternative rock genre known as “Seattle sound”)
George Fox College (pre-1996 name of George Fox University)
Jumping freight trains in the Pacific NW (Deviate episode)
Van Life before #VanLife (Deviate episode)
Brian Epstein (manager of The Beatles from 1962-1967)
Sub Pop (Seattle-based indie-rock record label)
X-Ray Cafe (1990s all-ages venue in Portland)
Rap rock (hybrid music genre)
Hardcore (punk rock subgenre)
Portlandia (sketch-comedy TV show from the 2010s)
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“Something about the motion of walking is conducive to generating both ideas and conversation. You can empty your mind and open your mind at the same time.”
—Kevin Kelly
In this episode of Deviate, Rolf reports from a “Walk and Talk” across northern Thailand. Interviewees and conversation topics are listed by time-code below. Participant write-ups about (or alluding to) the 2023 Thailand Walk and Talk include:

The Walk and Talk: Everything We Know, by Craig Mod
Walk and Talk: Everything We Know (PDF document), by Kevin Kelly
Walking the Heck out of Thailand, by Craig Mod
Walk and Talk, by Derek Sivers
Expanding Home, by Liz Danzico
Where Do You Call Home?, by Jason Kottke
2023: Walking, by Dan Wang
Why Not Pay Teachers $100,000 a Year?, by Daniel Pink

Kevin Kelly (4:00-15:00)
Kevin Kelly (@kevin2kelly) is a photographer, writer, and futurist, with much of his work centering on Asian and digital culture. His newest book is Excellent Advice for Living: Wisdom I Wish I’d Known Earlier.

Travel can be a way to see the future (Deviate episode)
Kevin Kelly on the lost world of 1970s Asia (Deviate episode)
Wired (technology magazine)
The Cotswolds (region in central Southwest England)

Liz Danzico (15:00-27:45)
Liz Danzico is VP of Design at Microsoft, and the Founding Chair of the MFA Interaction Design Program at the School of Visual Arts.

Long-distance hiking at home (Deviate episode)
The Death and Life of Great American Cities, by Jane Jacobs (book)
Lets Drift (Kenyan hiking club)
Hoka (brand of walking shoes)

Silvia Lindtner (27:45-46:00)
Silvia Lindtner is a writer, ethnographer, and Associate Professor at the University of Michigan. Her book Prototype Nation: China and the Contested Promise of Innovation was published by Princeton University Press in 2020.

Seeking rural places (Deviate episode)
Jiangxi (Chinese province)
Guangdong (Chinese province)
Yunnan (Chinese province)
Salzburg (city in Austria)
The Vulnerable Observer, by Ruth Behar (book)
Anna Greenspan (media professor)
Communitas (unstructured community of equals)

Daniel Pink (46:00-52:00)
Daniel Pink is a best-selling author of books on work, business, and life. His “Why Not?” project in collaboration with the Washington Post to aims to jolt America’s imagination about possibilities.

When: The Scientific Secrets of Perfect Timing, by Daniel Pink (book)
Drive: The Surprising Truth About What Motivates Us, by Daniel Pink (book)
The Power of Regret, by Daniel Pink (book)

Craig Mod (52:00-69:00)
Craig Mod is an author and photographer who has written and photographed about his walks across Japan, his love of pizza toast, and his life in Japan.

Walk Japan (tour company)
Rich Roll (ultra-endurance athlete)
The Glorious Boredom of My Walk in Japan, by Craig Mod (essay)
Kissa by Kissa, by Craig Mod (book)
Things Become Other Things, by Craid Mod (book)

The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber.
Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

“We ‘massage’ the truth to make it fit the narrative we need it to fit in our lives.”  –Andrew McCarthy
In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Andrew talk about how Andrew got started in travel writing, and how writing himself on the page helped him see himself in the world (2:30); when he does and doesn’t conflate certain details in the interest of a good story, and how he balances the “micro” and the “macro” elements of a travel story (12:30); how he decides who to write about, among the many people he meets on the road, which details do and don’t drive the narrative forward, and what it’s like to meet travelers who recognize him from his acting days (23:30); how Andrew structures his travel stories, and what travel storytelling in common with his work as a TV director (31:00); how he balances his writing and non-writing work in life, and how he mixes personal details with place details in his travel writing (38:00); and how memory can be fallible, and how to best write about family members (47:00).
Andrew McCarthy (@AndrewTMcCarthy) is an actor, television director and writer of such books as The Longest Way Home and Brat. His newest book is Walking with Sam: A Father, a Son, and Five Hundred Miles Across Spain.
Notable Links:

Paris Writing Workshops (Rolf’s travel memoir classes)
Andrew McCarthy on travel (Deviate episode)
Andrew McCarthy Proust questionnaire (Deviate episode)
Paul Theroux (travel writer and novelist)
“Chasing the Black Pearl,” by Andrew McCarthy (Tahiti article)
Gustav Mahler (classical composer)
Don George (travel writer and editor)
The Snow Leopard, by Peter Matthiessen (book)
“A Slice of Paradise,” by Andrew McCarthy (Hawaii article)
“A Slice of Ireland,” by Andrew McCarthy (Ireland article)
“Steeped in Darjeeling,” by Andrew McCarthy (India article)
Osprey (species of bird)
Finisterre (peninsula in Spain)
Communitas (unstructured community of equals)
A Short History of Nearly Everything, by Bill Bryson (book)
Less than Zero (1987 film starring Andrew McCarthy)
Nut graph (journalism term)
Joan Didion (American writer)
Marco Polo Didn’t Go There, by Rolf Potts (book)
Claude Chabrol (French film director)
Henry Miller (American novelist)
Alison Steele (New York DJ known as “The Nightbird”)
Vin Scelsa (broadcaster)
Oliver Sacks (British neurologist and writer)
Rob Lowe (American “Brat Pack” actor)
“Courting Vienna,” by Andrew McCarthy (Austria article)

The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber.
Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.

“Unless we explore our neighborhood, we can’t imagine what might be right under our noses, nor be able to celebrate it, mourn its demise, or take action.” –Alastair Humphreys
In this episode of Deviate, Rolf and Alastair Humphreys discuss the concept of his new book Local: A Search for Nearby Nature and Wilderness (1:30); what Alastair found on his close-to-home adventures in England (7:00); the surprises he found in industrial and post-industrial environments (13:00); how he learned to pay better attention to the natural environment in the areas he explored (19:30); “rights of access,” and how it affects hiking in Europe; and the idea of the “big here” versus the “small here” (25:00); how Alastair sought to embrace “stillness” during his experiment (33:30); how the changing of the seasons affected his experience of the local environments (40:30); and the role that imagination plays in having adventures close to home (48:00).
Alastair Humphreys (@Al_Humphreys) is an English adventurer, author and motivational speaker. He is responsible for the rise of the idea of the microadventure – short, local, accessible adventures. His newest book, out this year, is Local: A Search for Nearby Nature and Wildness.
Notable Links:

Microadventure (local travel initiative)
Industrial farming (agriculture practice)
Souvenir, by Rolf Potts (book)
Rewilding (conservation biology)
Korean DMZ (rewilded demilitarized zone)
Seek (nature identification app)
Merlin Bird ID (birdsong identification app)
On Looking, by Alexandra Horowitz (book)
Henry David Thoreau (naturalist and essayist)
Pilgrim at Tinker Creek, by Annie Dillard (book)
Mary Oliver (naturalist and poet)
Right of way (public right to hike on private land)
A Journey Around My Room, by Xavier de Maistre (book)
Traveling in Place, by Bernd Stiegler (book)
An Attempt at Exhausting a Place in Paris, by Georges Perec (book)
Dustsceawung (Old English term for “contemplating dust”)
Black Death (14th century pandemic)

The Deviate theme music comes from the title track of Cedar Van Tassel’s 2017 album Lumber.
Note: We don’t host a “comments” section, but we’re happy to hear your questions and insights via email, at deviate@rolfpotts.com.