Echoes Underground

Echoes Underground
Echoes Underground

Do you ever look up from your desk and wonder what on earth is going on? Do you yearn to pierce the veil but find yourself trapped by the mundane? You are not alone. Join our hosts (two respectable professionals) as they leave the banal light of the everyday. For the truth is not to be found above, it is to be found below. Expect excavations into the bedrock of narrative and consciousness. We talk of music, mycelium, the Royal Navy, and Terry Pratchett. And when we’ve finished arguing about evolutionary psychology and pretending to know more about physics than we do, we sometimes - sometimes - unearth something worthwhile. Follow us underground. Also follow us on Twitter: x.com/echoesundergrnd

  1. On Pontius Pilate

    4D AGO

    On Pontius Pilate

    Why is Pilate the only normal human being to be mentioned in the Nicean Creed? It’s an interesting selection of detail in a short and technical statement of theological belief to focus on the colonial governor who, under substantial local pressure, sentenced Jesus to death by crucifixion. For 1,700 years, Christians the world over have repeated every Sunday the words “crucified under Pontius Pilate”. A solid explanation is dating. Rather than using numbers to construct a timeline, Romans dated events through reference to who was in the locally important office that year. This reference in the Creed to Pilate can therefore be seen to situate Christ’s Passion firmly in the historical timeline - both the precise date, and the more general fact that this took place in the historical timeline at all, in the world of men. This isn’t abstract theology, this actually happened. More importantly for ritual purposes, however, this reference also sucks us into the narrative. It places us at the moment where Pilate has to make a difficult decision, where matters of spirit have suddenly intruded on his daily struggles in matters of state. It’s clear that Pilate did not want to execute Jesus - he did his best to come to a compromise, give Jesus a way out, pass on responsibility, and generally fudge the issue. In the end, though, killing Jesus was the easy option, preventing a rebellion in a generally difficult imperial province, maintaining relationships with local power structures, avoiding failure in Tiberius’ eyes. To help understand the situation Pilate faced, we dig into the evidence for his period as Prefect of Judea under Tiberius - the Pilate Stone, coins, references in Roman texts - and try to think through the events of the Gospels from a Roman point of view. Pilate comes across as a military man, both a result of his position in what was certainly a military post and due to his nickname Pilatus, meaning “skilled with a javelin”. We know he initially intended to rule with an iron fist in the manner Tiberius would expect before coming face to face with the Judeans’ stubbornness and thereafter having to take a more crafty and pragmatic approach. He was in post for ten years, a long time indicating a high degree of competence, before being recalled to Rome having brutally put down a rebellion. Albeit reluctantly, Pilate ended up putting temporal concerns above the spiritual. He took the easy, pragmatic way out, kept the peace, but committed an enormity at the same time. Who among us can say with confidence that we would have done differently?

    56 min
  2. In Praise of Shadows

    APR 14

    In Praise of Shadows

    In Praise of Shadows is an essay on aesthetics by a Japanese man of letters, Junichiro Tanizaki. This was written in 1933 between the Meiji Revolution and the Second World War - the old Japan is still there, with the new Japan growing on top of it but not yet reaching its fiery apotheosis. He starts with the loo, and how great old Japanese lavatories are, wooden and outside, in nature, places of reflection and harmony and, above all, darkness. This is contrasted with the Western aesthetic of sparkling white porcelain, painfully bright and sterile, and is the jumping off point for an exploration of the differences between Japanese and Western aesthetics and a lamentation of the necessity of having adopted Western technology because the West got there first. While Japan chose to adopt Western technology, they did so on their own terms. They proactively adopted it, mastered it, and ironically in doing so they retained their cultural distinctiveness in a way that no other culture quite achieved. Japanese culture is revered around the world, it’s a major export, and you get some people in the West who are completely obsessed with Japan. This demonstrates an extreme level of clear-sightedness. Knowing when you are outmatched and adopting the new technology at speed is something we could all learn from. And we could learn even more from the Japanese love of darkness. In Japan this was largely a product of necessity - Japanese architecture is heavy and dark as a result of building materials and the climate, in contrast to the large glass windows and narrow eaves of the West. But we could use it here. We should all be cleverer with light and materials. We should reintroduce varied light and shadow to our homes to create intentional aesthetics. We should fight against the blandness of Western modernity, we should fight to return shadows to our homes - and also to our minds.

    54 min
  3. APR 7

    On Sacrifice

    What was it like to live in a culture where blood sacrifice was a part of everyday life? Sacrifice was ubiquitous across all human cultures until very recently, but we have lost that visceral knowledge of how it felt and what it meant and as a result have a gap in our models of how people in the past experienced the world. Why were people in the ancient world cutting the throats of bulls, digging into their guts, catching their blood? Nobody sacrifices fish or dogs - it’s always a domestic animal, a cow, an ox or a goat, bonus points for it being a magnificent specimen in its prime. You wash it, decorate it then lead it to the altar in a procession. The altar is in front of the temple, whose doors are open so the god can see. There will be a priest, perhaps a flute player, some burly attendants who maneuver the animal, a butcher and perhaps an augur. You throw some grains over the head of the animal, cut some hair from its head and throw it on the fire. Finally, you need the beast’s consent, so you pour some water over its head so it nods. Then you’re ready. An attendant bashes it over the head, a priest removes a small knife from its hiding place in a bushel of wheat, and he cuts the victim’s throat the women in attendance ululate. The blood is caught in a bowl, some is thrown on the fire along with the entrails and the thigh bones smeared with fat - the god’s share. The meat is boiled, and shared among all those present. We don’t do this anymore, but it is interesting that the word “sacrifice” comes up quite often in the contemporary discourse beyond the weaker meaning of “giving up something now in return for a future benefit”. When we talk about the sacrifice made by the young during the COVID lockdowns, or the ultimate sacrifice made by so many young men during the Great War, when something is serious, extreme, we consciously or unconsciously find ourselves tying it back to the tradition of blood sacrifice. They died so that we might live. The central insight of all mystical traditions is that life is death and death is life, and the ritual that represents this insight into the true nature of reality is sacrifice. It allows you to experience the union of life and death, and without experience, without embodied knowledge, your understanding of anything is no better than if you had taken a correspondence course. “We establish a connection with the unknown through the act of giving something and, paradoxically, the act of destroying something.” So writes Roberto Calasso in the Ruin of Kasch. What you destroy in a blood sacrifice is life itself. You are sacrificing the cow, but the cow is you - representing the surplus that sustains your life. Through his crucifixion, the willing sacrifice of literally a God, Christ completed the sacrifice quest for mankind. With focused intellectual engagement, the ritual of the Eucharist takes the congregation through the ritual of blood sacrifice. But Christianity’s grip on Western culture has been loosened, and for those not going to church regularly there is a sacrifice-shaped hole in their psyche. That visceral understanding that life is death has been lost, and without it we are flapping in the wind. We refer to the Stalingrad Madonna - see it here, it’s worth a minute of your time.

    1h 7m
  4. On Self-Promotion

    MAR 31

    On Self-Promotion

    This is our 26th episode, and we have not taken a single step to promote this podcast. These things are quite a lot of effort to record, edit and release to the public, we created an entire website and brand pack - why can’t we bring ourselves to tweet about it, or to generally hustle to bring in numbers? What’s going on with that psychologically? We both have an absolute horror at promoting ourselves. It’s vulgar, it’s embarrassing. We enjoy The Rest Is History but cringe when they’re asking us to join the Rest Is History Club and reading out those terrible adverts. At least on television and radio the adverts and promotion are dissociated from the programmes themselves, allowing us to separate the two things in our heads. There’s something quite humiliating about the actual talent having to debase themselves with tawdry commercial matters. But there’s more to it than self-respect (since that’s how we characterise this cowardice to ourselves). After all, we did not start this podcast for money - we thought it would be fun and interesting. We didn’t want to get famous - anonymity would be a poor choice if we wanted that, and in fact we actively don’t want our identities associated with these thoughts and words. Basically we enjoy it. We enjoy the conversations, we enjoy the extra thinking it encourages us to do, and we find the craft of making it sound professional very satisfying (see our episode on Audio Engineering). In fact we enjoy every aspect of creating this podcast, but would not enjoy tweeting about it. So we won’t. And anyway, it’s called Echoes Underground. It should be hidden. Obviously this makes it seem odd that we publish it at all, but it needs to be published. Publishing it makes it real, turns it into an artefact, consummates the act of creation. We take some comfort that, despite our modest listener figures, the data is at least being ingested by AI models as part of their training, and our thinking will forever live on in ChatGPT and our eventual AI overlords.

    48 min
  5. On the Phantom Time Hypothesis

    MAR 24

    On the Phantom Time Hypothesis

    How do we know that the fall of Rome in 479 AD was 1,546 years ago? Empires have risen and fallen since then, a dark age took place, historical records are fragmentary, not continuous, and they are often politically motivated or even fabricated. Do we really have any confidence that the Earth has gone round the Sun 1,546 times since Rome fell? Can we really trust the historical timeline? There are some compelling arguments that there are a couple of hundred to even a thousand extra years in our timeline - years that didn’t actually exist. One version is that Holy Roman Emperor Otto III and Pope Sylvester II conspired to add 279 years to the Anno Domini dating system in order to place themselves in the year 1,000 AD and strengthen Otto’s claim to the throne. The more interesting version, however, comes from Anatoly Fomenko, a Russian professor of mathematics who wrote History: Fiction or Science? He argues that the known physics of the moon orbiting the Earth disagrees with the historical timeline’s account of when solar eclipses happened (which imply a position of the moon at that moment in time). For example, the series of three eclipses that take place during the Sicilian Campaign according to Thucydides could only have happened nine centuries ago, not the 2,400 years ago the standard timeline places this event at. Physics and the historical record can only be reconciled if you accept that the historical timeline has hundreds of extra years added - either by accident and inaccuracy or via a grand papal conspiracy. We go over Fomenko’s main arguments, and the obvious defences of the status quo - radiocarbon dating and dendrochronology, Occam’s Razor, or an analysis of who benefits geopolitically from the promulgation of this theory. But there’s enough uncertainty to leave a non-zero chance that perhaps there is something badly wrong with our understanding of the historical record. And even if it is rubbish, it’s an interesting idea to play with. Conspiracy theories, even at their worst, force us to examine the foundation stones our knowledge systems are built on, and it’s worth investing some time every now and then to check that they are indeed sound.

    1h 5m
  6. What is Money?

    MAR 17

    What is Money?

    We have our first guest! Artem is a philosopher of corporate ethics with an academic background in economics, and he’s helping us explore what money is. How do we even go about answering this question? Money is magic, it’s invisible, Marx spoke of the “alchemy of money”. We can trace the history of money, but to do that we already need a theory of what money is so that we can identify it in the historical record. A better approach is to think about the function of money - people when they cooperate face a coordination problem, and they require a technology to solve this. The standard theory is that money arose from barter, which eventually got intermediated for convenience by an easily-transportable non-perishable good like gold or salt. This, however, does not explain a lot of what money does. Take the American trade deficit - the world sends goods to America, and America sends dollars in return. Everyone wants some dollars in their pocket, not just to spend but to have, and they are happy to work hard to get them. So in effect, Americans can import stuff for free, just issuing bits of paper or numbers on a database to grateful foreigners in exchange. Or take the Maria Theresa thaler, a silver coin issued by Austria-Hungary in the eighteenth century. Vienna used these coins to pay Ethiopia for its massive coffee imports, and around the Red Sea these coins became popular as they had a reliably high silver content and were difficult to forge. Long after Europe had moved onto the gold standard and they stopped being legal tender, and in the face of concerted efforts to replace them, these coins remained essential to trade between Persia, the Red Sea and the Horn of Africa. The credit theory of how money came can help explain these case studies. This has money as a form of IOU, solving the problem of intertemporal production (you will have a good to trade next week, but need something to eat this week), and an IOU from someone everyone trusts to be good for it is worth a lot more than an IOU from some random. Artem breaks new ground by giving an intuitive story based in an archipelago of fishing villages of how money as credit could have come about in a state of nature, and how it became abstracted into the form we experience today. If you want to read more about this, we’ve put a reading list on our website. And in the name of honesty, we should confess that we were wrong on one thing - the Persians did have a coin, and it had a picture of a king on it.

    1h 13m
  7. On Panspermia

    MAR 10

    On Panspermia

    Did life develop on Earth, or did it come from the stars? Is outer space actually teeming with life? One of our hosts spent the week down the Chandra Wickramasinge internet rabbithole and has some Opinions. The idea of panspermia is that life is everywhere across the universe. More specifically, if abiogenesis did happen, it probably happened elsewhere, and there is life on Earth simply because life is widespread. Fermi’s Paradox makes this feel unlikely - if there’s so much life out there, why haven’t we seen it? Well, the leading exponents of panspermia argue that in fact we have, in fact the world is being hosed down by protein chains all the time, driven across the void by the solar winds. We don’t notice them because they’re the same as the protein chains that are on Earth already. Obviously. More intense exponents - Sir Frank Hoyle and Chandra Wickramasinge - go further and argue that interstellar medium is not just filled with protein chains but is in fact riddled with bacteria and viruses. They’re everywhere, and the massive dust clouds we see in those beautiful false colour space telescope images are their desiccated corpses. Alarmingly, this seems to be backed up by spectrographic analysis (although we’re ill-placed to verify this), and high altitude weather balloons do get covered in bacteria. Now that SpaceX are getting Starship up and running and will be hitting Mars soon we might get some even stronger evidence about this soon - that will be the real test. Why are scientists so against this? It’s nothing to do with the data, apparently - this is bias, an medieval Earth-centric prejudice. We used to believe that Earth was the centre of the universe, but then the Copernican Principle emerged and we now understand that from a cosmic point of view Earth is not particularly special. Nowhere is. Why can’t we apply this idea to life itself?

    52 min
  8. On the Church of England

    MAR 3

    On the Church of England

    What’s gone wrong with the Church of England? We read a Spectator article by Marcus Walker about the process of becoming a bishop, which has become highly bureaucratic and secular - you are put on a management fast track and then hilariously have to apply for a Bishop job when it comes up. And this is what the Church of England has become - the way it is run is basically nothing to do with Christianity. An imperialistic and expanding bureaucracy infected with secular notions of management seems to sit badly with… faith. There is a major philosophical conflict between this bureaucracy and the people who actually go to church, and that’s before you get into the Church’s politics. There’s an additional tension in the Church of England between those who want to focus on the individual’s direct relationship with God and build it into their everyday life, and those who want to set aside an hour of their week in a beautiful space to refresh their souls in a curated manner and send them back out into the world to do their best. Perhaps this latter conflict is built into what religion is - is religion a revolutionary force, or a conservative one? Is it unstable or stable, informal or formal? Should our spiritual energy be untamed, or channeled? Within the Church of England, this conflict is instantiated by its two most vigorous branches - Holy Trinity Brompton-led evangelicalism and beautiful, formal Anglo-Catholicism. Basically, should we focus on the Holy Spirit or on God the Father? Well, the Trinity provides an answer: God the Son, Jesus Christ, the force that resolves this conflict and transcends the two opposites. He’s both Dionysus and Apollo, female and male, subversion and maintenance, life and death. This is Christianity’s secret sauce. So in fact we need both wings of the church - having just one will lead to its own species of error. What we don’t need is the bureaucracy, and in the conflict between Christ and the scribes/pharisees/Romans we can even see Him as an anti-bureaucratic force. We can take this lesson out into the secular world. Politics and corporate life have become bureaucratised, and while this does in its own way solve the messy conflict between revolution and conservatism, it does so in a way that destroys the benefits of both. We also wrestle with the nature of the soul, how blacksmithing works, and awkward pauses.

    53 min

    About

    Do you ever look up from your desk and wonder what on earth is going on? Do you yearn to pierce the veil but find yourself trapped by the mundane? You are not alone. Join our hosts (two respectable professionals) as they leave the banal light of the everyday. For the truth is not to be found above, it is to be found below. Expect excavations into the bedrock of narrative and consciousness. We talk of music, mycelium, the Royal Navy, and Terry Pratchett. And when we’ve finished arguing about evolutionary psychology and pretending to know more about physics than we do, we sometimes - sometimes - unearth something worthwhile. Follow us underground. Also follow us on Twitter: x.com/echoesundergrnd

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