Fund the People: A Podcast with Rusty Stahl Fund the People

Welcome to a very special final episode of Season Four!

In this episode, you’ll learn how one foundation built the internal political will to make internal reforms so they can provide grants that better serve their grantees and their communities. Host Rusty Stahl sits down with Kenneth Jones, Chief Operating Officer and Chief Equity Officer of one of America’s major foundations, The John D. and Catherine T. MacArthur Foundation. They discuss why and how MacArthur Foundation has increased the amount of money in their grants for “indirect costs” from 15% to 29%, nearly double and one of the highest rates we know about.

This is the fourth installment of our special series, Smashing the Overhead Myth Once and for All! Be sure to check out the first installment (S4E3 with Rodney Christopher of BDO), which sets the context, provides the backstory, and defines terms for the entire series. You can binge the whole series in this Spotify playlist or find them spread across Season Four on the podcast page on our website. Go to the ⁠Show Notes Page⁠ on our website for a transcript of this episode, links to the resources discussed in the episode, guest bio, and more. You can find all the episodes of this podcast plus our blog, toolkit and other resources on our website, ⁠fundthepeople.org⁠. And we invite you to learn from all the amazing past guests of Fund the People - A Podcast with Rusty Stahl at fundthepeople.org/ftp_podcast.

We’ll be taking a podcasting break during summer 2023. We will return this fall with Season Five. We’ll amplify more great guests, transformative ideas, and practical tips for investing in the nonprofit workforce.

In this episode, you’ll get an insider’s view of The Annie E. Casey Foundation’s journey to contribute to the full costs of grantees in an adequate and equitable fashion. Our guest is Katie Tetrault, the Foundation’s Vice President of Finance and Grants Management. Tetrault manages all of the Foundation’s budgeting, accounting, financial, and grantmaking policies and operations. Katie shares how and why the Foundation’s recently changed from paying only 10% toward “indirect costs” on project and program grants, and why they created a three-tiered policy that now pays up to 25%.

This is the third installment of Smashing the Overhead Myth Once and for All, an ongoing special series throughout Season 4! You can find all the episodes in this series in this Spotify playlist. Go to the ⁠Show Notes Page⁠ on our website for a transcript of this episode, links to the resources discussed in the episode, guest bio, and more. You can find all the episodes of this podcast plus our blog, toolkit and other resources on our website, ⁠fundthepeople.org⁠. And we invite you to learn from all the amazing past guests of Fund the People - A Podcast with Rusty Stahl at fundthepeople.org/ftp_podcast.

In this episode, you’ll gain an understanding of how bias commonly plays out in the hiring process, and how organizations can better recruit and retain a powerful, diverse workforce that expands opportunity across lines of race and gender.

Our guests are Trina C. Olson and Alfonso T. Wenker, co-leaders of the consultancy Team Dynamics and co-authors of Hiring Revolution: A Guide to Disrupt Racism and Sexism in Hiring. In this conversation, they share powerful, practical approaches to the hiring process – from preparation through salary negotiation. They also share a plethora of resources that they make available at no cost to the field. Listeners gain ideas for interrupting bias and embedding equity in employment processes, including:


Preparation for hiring


Recruitment and search


The hiring process itself


Paying, supporting, and managing employees in today’s nonprofit environment



Alfonso and Trina bring extensive experience in nonprofits and philanthropy. Through their work at Team Dynamics, they’ve gained deep knowledge of how organizations and companies can address diversity and equity in the recruitment, hiring, and retention processes.

Go to the ⁠Show Notes Page⁠ on our website for a transcript of the episode, links to the resources discussed in the episode, guest bio, and more. You can find all the episodes of this podcast plus our blog, toolkit and other resources on our website, ⁠fundthepeople.org⁠. And we invite you to learn from all the amazing past guests of Fund the People - A Podcast with Rusty Stahl at fundthepeople.org/ftp_podcast.

Over half of mid-level nonprofit staff in Western New York State don’t make enough to support themselves or their families. This number grows to 68% for those who work at nonprofits with budgets of less than a million dollars. This is one of many powerful findings in new research about the wellbeing of the nonprofit workforce. How does it relate to what’s happening in your nonprofit community?

In this episode, you’ll get important new data on the health of the nonprofit workforce. Drawn from the survey responses of over 700 local nonprofit workers, interviews, and focus groups in Western New York State, the research reinforces what many across the country already know - that the lack of investment in nonprofit compensation, HR, and other staff support systems is an existential and growing threat to the sector.

We’re joined by Todd Butler, CEO of Causewave Community Partners, and Caitlin Fisher, who leads Causewave’s Nonprofit Talent Pipeline Project. Go to the Show Notes Page on our website for a transcript of the episode, links to the resources discussed in the episode, guest bio, and more. You can find all the episodes of this podcast plus our blog, toolkit and other resources on our website, fundthepeople.org.

So many nonprofits right now are experiencing challenges with recruitment, burnout, retention, and internal conflict around issues of equity and compensation. Sometimes we don’t know where to start. Sometimes we don’t have a vision for where to go on these issues. So we’ve got an important, helpful, and mind-expanding conversation for you today.

The brilliant consultant and thought-leader Mala Nagarajan returns to our podcast to share six practices that nonprofits can use to de-link privilege (or, on the other side of the coin, marginalization) from salaries, and reconstruct compensation in a way that is more equitable than it has traditionally been in our sector.

These practices are drawn from the Compensation Scale Equity Process and Calculator™ developed by Vega Mala Consulting, of which our guest is Cofounder and Principal. We introduce this resource in the episode, and discuss how nonprofits and other consultants can utilize it. We also discuss what nonprofits can do right away even if they are unable to work with consultants to address equity in their compensation structure.

From Fund the People’s 8 Practices of Talent-Investing, this episode explores Practice #2: Lead with Respect, Practice #3: Build People-Systems, and Practice #4: Advance Talent Justice. To learn about these, and all 8 Practices of Talent-Investing, listen to Season 4 Episode 1.

Go to the Show Notes Page on our website for a transcript of the episode, links to the resources discussed in the episode, guest bio, and more. You can find all the episodes of this podcast plus our blog, toolkit and other resources on our website, fundthepeople.org

To hear Mala’s previous appearance on the show, listen to Season 3 Episode 9, where she discusses what it means for nonprofits to develop a “compensation philosophy.”

In this second installment of our series, Smashing the Overhead Myth Ones and For All, you’ll get an insider’s view of how things are changing inside the Ford Foundation, one of the largest private funders in the world, as their team seeks to provide more equitable and effective grants to the organizations they support in the U.S. and around the world.

Our guests today are the ones making challenging operational decisions, guiding changes to organizational policy, practice and culture, and executing important internal change management at the Ford Foundation.

Tiffanie De Gannes is Senior Manager of Operations at Ford Foundation. She serves as lead on complex projects and initiatives, as well as bridging the gap between operations and program teams to ensure alignment on organizational priorities.

Jim Gallagher is Director of Grants Management at the Foundation, where he oversees Ford’s grant managers in the US and around the world. Jim has 20+ years of nonprofit and philanthropic management experience and expertise in domestic and international grantmaking, organizational capacity building, financial planning, team building, and systems implementation. 

Tiffanie and Jim were both part of the Ford Foundation team engaged in the Funders for Real Cost, Real Change learning collaborative. We spoke at length about that effort In the first installment of this series, Season 4 Episode 3 with Rodney Christopher. If you want to go in order, pause this episode, listen to Season 4 Episode 3, then start this one again.

This episode touches on the practices of talent-investing related to Respect and Root Causes – Respecting nonprofit workers and addressing the Root Causes of the deficit of investment in the nonprofit workforce. To learn about the Eight Practices of Talent-Investing, listen to Episode One of this season. And we invite you to learn from all the amazing past guests of Fund the People - A Podcast with Rusty Stahl. All resources & links mentioned in the show can be found on our episode show notes page or at fundthepeople.org/ftp_podcast. Find all the episodes of this podcast plus our blog, toolkit and other resources on our website, fundthepeople.org.