As someone who knows tech giants like Elon Musk more deeply than most reporters, Kara Swisher doesn’t have a ton of patience for them. But that doesn’t mean she doesn’t have empathy. Reflecting at this pivotal moment, she’s stripping away the facades of these powerful men to reveal their true characters (typically, cringeworthy pretenders). She and I share an energetic back-and-forth about what makes these disruptive innovators tick, what worries her about that, and what, despite it all, still manages to make her feel hopeful.

Follow me on Instagram at @davidduchovny. Stay up to date with Lemonada on Twitter, Facebook and Instagram at @LemonadaMedia.

Joining Lemonada Premium is a great way to support our shows and get bonus content. Subscribe today on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts.

For a list of current sponsors and discount codes for this and every other Lemonada show, go to lemonadamedia.com/sponsors.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.