KickBack - The Global Anticorruption Podcast KickBack

We welcome one of the most important voices in the academic (anti-)corruption field: Michael Johnston, Professor Emeritus of Political Science at Colgate University, who has written numerous books on corruption. (https://www.colgate.edu/about/directory/mjohnston).

The interview covers Michael’s journey of becoming a corruption research pioneer, his conceptual framework of syndromes of corruption and how they might inform anti-corruption policies.
Matthew and Michael discuss the developments of the anti-corruption “industry” over the past decades and Michael shares his views on the tools most useful to fight corruption: Politics and social networks.
The interview ends with Michael candidly sharing which views about corruption he has changed his mind about and some advice for (young) anti-corruption scholars and practitioners.

Further links:
Michael’s most recent book (with Scott A. Fritzen) “The Conundrum of Corruption” can be found here: https://www.routledge.com/The-Conundrum-of-Corruption-Reform-for-Social-Justice/Johnston-Fritzen/p/book/9780367224547

Michael refers to research by Lawrence Lessig on institutional corruption, you can find more about it: https://hls.harvard.edu/faculty/directory/10519/Lessig

We welcome Peter Y. Solmssen who serves as the Chairman of the Non-trial Resolutions Subcommittee of the International Bar Association.

The interview covers his unique role in serving as the general counsel after the allegations of foreign bribery against Siemens surfaced. Peter shares his views on the Siemens case in general and weighs in on why a successful and large company like Siemens developed systematic bribery schemes in the first place. Matthew and Peter discuss the benefits and challenges of administering penalties of foreign bribery not only to companies but also to individuals. Peter describes his wishlist of changes to the FCPA and how bribery schemes increasingly span across national borders need to be combatted.

For more info on the Siemens scandal: https://www.nytimes.com/2008/12/21/business/worldbusiness/21siemens.html

To find out more about Peter and his involvement in negotiating “the first internationally coordinated settlement of multiple foreign bribery prosecutions”, check out his Wikipedia article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Y._Solmssen.

For a fascinating read about his family’s roots in Germany check out this Die Zeit article (in German): https://www.zeit.de/2010/37/Siemens-Vorstand-Solmssen/komplettansicht

In March 2017, Peter co-authored the Report “On Combating Corruption and Fostering Integrity “ to the Secretary General of the OECD: https://www.oecd.org/corruption/HLAG-Corruption-Integrity-SG-Report-March-2017.pdf

Together with Prof. Tina Soreide (https://www.nhh.no/en/employees/faculty/tina-soreide/), Peter has founded and coordinated “The Recommendation 6 Network” a working group consisting academics, lawyers, corporate officers and NGOs: https://www.nhh.no/en/research-centres/corporate-compliance-and-enforcement/about/guidelines-for-non-trial-resolutions/

We welcome Will Fitzgibbon (@WillFitzgibbon) to talk about the largest collaborative journalistic efforts on the Pandora Papers, revealing “inner workings of a shadow economy that benefits the wealthy and well-connected at the expense of everyone else.”

More information on Pandora Papers: https://www.icij.org/investigations/pandora-papers/global-investigation-tax-havens-offshore/

Will mentions previous data leaks:
For more of our content on data leaks, check out our episodes with Frederik Obermaier on the
Panama Papers https://soundcloud.com/kickback-gap/6-episode-frederik-obermaier?si=a0c379172d884b3bb74a986cafa5c3dd
and the FinCen Files https://soundcloud.com/kickback-gap/39-frederik-obermaier-on-the-fincen-files-revealing-global-money-laundering-systems?si=40fc582fab9b43069087aa87fa4384dd

Learn how in his work for ICIJ, Will uses artificial intelligence to sift through the massive databases. Will also describes how the impact of data leaks is measured and how the public response to data leaks can spur policy changes. He mentions the protests in Iceland following the Panama Papers:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Icelandic_anti-government_protests.

Picks of the Podcast:
Documentary by Kenyian journalists on the revelations within the Pandora Papers about President Kenyatta: https://africauncensored.substack.com/p/watch-our-pandora-papers-documentary
Washington Post Podcast on the US as a tax haven: https://www.washingtonpost.com/podcasts/post-reports/a-tax-haven-in-americas-heartland/?itid=lk_inline_manual_47
Video by Scilla Alleci (ICIJ) on environmental harms revealed in the Panama Papers https://www.icij.org/investigations/pandora-papers/solvay-italy-new-jerey-chemical-plants-offshore/

This week we welcome Fernanda Odilla (@fe_odilla) and Anwesha Chakraborty (@anwesha8984) to talk about their research on how to use technology to assist bottom-up anti-corruption efforts. You can find more about their and Alice Mattoni’s work via https://site.unibo.it/bit-act/en/team/researchers

What we cover in the podcast:
Alice Mattoni’s BIT-ACT project, find more about it in our previous podcast with Alice: https://soundcloud.com/kickback-gap/56-alice-mattoni-on-the-potential-of-digital-media-for-social-movements-against-corruption
Fernanda mentions the car wash (“Lava Jato”) scandal and its backlash, find out more about it from the lead prosecutor Deltan Dallagnol (https://soundcloud.com/kickback-gap/2-episode-deltan-dallagnol and https://soundcloud.com/kickback-gap/55-michael-mohallem-on-lava-jato-and-anti-corruption-efforts-in-brazil
7:45 Whether the hype around digital tools to fight corruption are justified
Anwesha mentions the Ipaidabribe website, you can find it here: http://www.ipaidabribe.com/
Which was founded by janaagraha, center for citizenship & democracy: https://www.janaagraha.org/home/
To find out about one of the tool that Fernanda’s does research research on, Operation love serenade, you can check out our previous episode with the founder Irio Musskopf: https://soundcloud.com/kickback-gap/33-irio-musskopf-on-using-artificial-intelligence-to-fight-corruption

18:08 on the challenge to keep citizens engaged in collective action and whether the projects use a naming and shaming approach
Fernanda mentions Operation Supervised Politics (in Portuguese): https://www.ops.net.br/

27:25 on whether reporting platforms can backfire by indicating high descriptive norms
35:19 on how corruption fights back against anti-corruption and whether the problem is bigger on the local or national level
43:19- 43:31: quote → not only transparency….
45:10: Anwesha and Fernanda sketch a utopian future how technology could help to reduce corruption
54:15 Picks of the podcast:
Fernanda: Documentary about art forgery, called Made you look https://www.netflix.com/de/title/81406333
Book about Odebrecht: https://www.livrariadavila.com.br/a-organizacao--a-odebrecht-e-o-esquema-de-corrupcao-que-chocou-o-mundo-725368/p
Anwesha: a documentary called An insignificant Man (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uk-DlWrZsMg) that plays out like a political thriller
And Bad Boy Billionaires https://www.netflix.com/de/title/80990073

We welcome Kate Bateman, @katebatemandc), senior expert in the Afghanistan program of the United States Institute of Peace (https://www.usip.org/regions/asia/afghanistan), formerly in the Lessons Learned Program at Special Inspector General for Afghanistan Reconstruction (www.sigar.mil)

Quarterly report by SIGAR: https://www.sigar.mil/quarterlyreports/index.aspx?SSR=6
Corruption lessons learned report : https://www.sigar.mil/pdf/lessonslearned/SIGAR-16-58-LL.pdf
Building the ANDSF lessons learned report: https://www.sigar.mil/pdf/lessonslearned/SIGAR-17-62-LL.pdf
most recent Lesson Learned report “What We Need to Learn,” distilling the insights of previous reports: https://www.sigar.mil/pdf/lessonslearned/SIGAR-21-46-LL.pdf

Books by Sarah Chayes: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarah_Chayes#Books_and_other_works
Previous Kickback Episode on the role of Corruption in Afghanistan: https://soundcloud.com/kickback-gap/59-jodi-vittori-on-corruption-and-the-us-military-operation-in-afghanistan

Recommended Podcast from Kate: https://www.cna.org/news/podcast Episodes 96 and 97.

We welcome Jodi Vittori, Professor of the Practice and Concentration Co-Chair for Global Politics and Security at Georgetown University and military veteran to the pod to talk about the role of corruption in Afghanistan.

Warlord Inc. Report: https://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/pdf/HNT_Report.pdf
Goldwater-Nichols Act: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goldwater-Nichols_Act

2:45: what got Jodi interested in corruption
6:53: on what went wrong in Afghanistan even though the problem of widespread corruption has been acknowledged not just by (anti-)corruption experts
15:05: Jodi provides a history of military doctrines and outlines what the doctrine for Afghanistan should have been
27:50: on whether and how it is possible to reform (foreign) governance
32:15: Jodi discusses what the ideal timing is to implement good government reforms
38:53: On whether a hands-on versus hands-off approach is better able to tackle corruption post-conflict regions
47:55: a discussion about what militaries can and cannot/should not be doing
54:30: Jodi looks ahead and summarizes the key lessons drawn about the link between corruption and security from Afghanistan.