Sea Change Radio Alex Wise

This week on Sea Change Radio we speak to Lisa Song of ProPublica about her recent work spotlighting efforts by the plastics industry to make its fossil fuel-based products seem benign. We examine how plastic recycling falls short in many areas, look at the problems surrounding a relatively new plastic recycling process called pyrolysis, and then discuss her trip to Ottawa, Canada where she attended a UN conference which purported to be plastic-free.

Narrator | 00:02 - This is Sea Change Radio covering the shift to sustainability. I'm Alex Wise.

Lisa Song (LS) | 00:28 - The first big lesson is just that pyrolysis is very inefficient. If you start out with a hundred pounds of plastic waste that you feed into the pyrolysis process, by the end, only 15 or 20 pounds of that original trash becomes a new plastic product.

Narrator | 00:50 - This week on Sea Change Radio, we speak to Lisa Song of ProPublica about her recent work, spotlighting efforts by the plastics industry to make its fossil fuel-based products seem benign. We examine how plastic recycling falls short in many areas, look at the problem surrounding a relatively new plastic recycling process called Pyrolysis, and then discuss her trip to Ottawa, Canada where she attended a UN conference, which purported to be plastic-free.

Alex Wise (AW) | 01:37 - I am joined now on Sea Change Radio by Lisa Song. Lisa is a reporter at ProPublica. Lisa, welcome back to Sea Change Radio.

Lisa Song (LS) | 01:45 - Thanks for having me.

Alex Wise (AW) | 01:47 - Always a pleasure to have you on the show. You've been doing some important work in the plastic space. Recently covered a quote unquote plastic free conference up in Ottawa, Canada. And then you've written a really well researched piece called Selling a Mirage about the problems with plastic recycling. Why don't we first start with that, this new pyrolysis technology, which ExxonMobil has called the circularity of plastic. I like that. Why is plastic not as circular as ExxonMobil might want it to seem?

Lisa Song (LS) | 02:24 - Yeah, so the story I wrote was about a particular form of chemical recycling and chemical recycling, or what the industry likes to call advanced recycling is this whole collection of ways to recycle hard to recycle plastic. And the most popular form of chemical recycling is called pyrolysis. And so that's what my story was about. Pyrolysis basically means you take a bunch of plastic trash and you heat it up at very high temperatures until you break all of the chemical bonds and you end up with the molecular building blocks of plastic, and then you use those to make new plastic. So the plastics industry has been marketing pyrolysis and chemical recycling for a while now, and they're really touting it as this kind of miracle cure because with pyrolysis, you can recycle things like plastic bags and a lot of food packaging and, and think of the sort of flimsy plastic that we use every day in, in packaging or, um, to, uh, as containers for, um, crackers and chips and cookies that you buy from the grocery store. Those kinds of things. You can't really recycle in your regular blue recycling bin. And pyrolysis is supposed to be the solution to that. 

Alex Wise (AW) | 03:47 - And it's kind of the holy grail for plastic recyclers. I can imagine. Where you wouldn't want to be as beholden to dividing up all the plastics is that one of the advantages is that on paper you would be able to take a milk jug or a plastic detergent container and then some plastic wrap, and then throw it all into a big bin and melt it down, and then voila, you've got a whole new substrate to work with. Is that the basic concept? 

LS | 04:18 - Yeah. So one of the ways that it's been marketed is that pyrolysis can take a bunch of the messy, dirty mixed plastic waste that you can't recycle normally, and it will turn it all into brand new pristine plastic that's so clean. You could use it as food packaging. Um,

No matter what your current stance may be on the upcoming presidential election, the past few weeks of debate debacles and failed assassination attempts have definitely demonstrated that unforeseen events can happen. We still have several months between now and November, during which time the plot may continue to twist and turn. This week on Sea Change Radio, we speak with John Stoehr of The Editorial Board to get his insights into the calls for Democrats to replace President Biden on the ticket. In this free-flowing conversation, we unpack the problem with what Stoehr describes as a "customer service approach" to politics, learn why he believes third parties are a scam, and question polling data that have so many undecided voters in an election between two well-known quantities.

Narrator | 00:02 - This is Sea Change Radio, covering the shift to sustainability. I'm Alex Wise.

John Stoehr (JS) | 00:23 -  I don't know what to say to people who are like, I need to be enthusiastic. That, that, again is the customer service attitude toward politics. It's like, thrill me, get me excited, then I'll make a decision. It's like, "no."

Narrator | 00:35 - No matter what your current stance may be on the upcoming presidential election, the past few weeks of debate debacle and failed assassination attempts have definitely demonstrated that unforeseen events can happen. We still have several months between now and November, during which time the plot may continue to twist and turn. This week on Sea Change Radio, we speak with John Stoehr of The Editorial Board to get his insights into the calls for Democrats to replace President Biden on the ticket. In this free-flowing conversation, we unpack the problem with what Stoehr describes as a customer service approach to politics, learn why he believes third parties are a scam and question polling data that have so many undecided voters in an election between two well-known quantities.

Alex Wise (AW) | 01:39 - I am joined now on Sea Change Radio by John Stoehr. He is the founder and editor of The Editorial Board. John, welcome back to Sea Change Radio.

John Stoehr (JS) | 01:47 - Thanks for having me back, Alex.

Alex Wise (AW) | 01:49 - Really good to speak to you. I've been kind of putting this discussion off as long as possible so that it would hold up. Why don't you first summarize what your thought process has been since the debate, the evolution of your thoughts, if you can.

JS | 02:05 - Well, I should guess I should start with how I experienced the, the debate pretty much like everybody else did. You know, I was, there was a lot of shock, like, whoa, where, who is this Biden? I haven't seen this Biden before. You know, I don't think that was a consequence of previously having been in denial. I pay attention to the President, um, pretty closely. And, he broke his foot. I knew that, and so that's why he shuffles a bit. He's 81. I chalked up a lot of his behavior to age and so on, and I didn't have any sense of, of, of cognitive decline. And then, you know, I saw the debate and I start, I, myself was like, maybe I'm missing something for sure. But, you know, then as somebody who believes like, well, he does have the best shot of defeating Trump, and Trump is an existential threat to democracy, you know, the stakes are very high, and if anybody's going to do it, it's going to be him. So I, I watched that North Carolina rally very closely. I was looking for reasons to think, you know, was this just a one-off? Are his excuses true? You know, his excuses were, I was sick and, and, and so on. To me, the excuses seemed like pretty valid. I understand that a lot of that's not enough for a lot of people. I think what's going on right now is that the president's priorities are to get his people in line as quickly as possible, because without his base, he's got nothing. And he's going to have to worry about undecided people as we get closer to the election. And because,

The environmental movement has made something clear: For the health of the planet, humans need to stop using so much fossil fuel. Period. Many efforts to reduce fossil fuel use focus on consumer behavior -- CAFE standards, electric vehicle subsidies, and the like are designed to lessen demand for these polluting fuels. Meanwhile, billions upon billions of dollars are being invested right now in new fossil fuel extraction projects across the globe. This week on Sea Change Radio, we speak with one of the environmental leaders working to stem the supply side of the equation. Today we are speaking with Tzeporah Berman of Stand.earth, and the Fossil Fuel Nonproliferation Treaty Initiative, about the work she and her colleagues are doing to keep fossil fuels in the ground. We examine the current state of pipeline projects in North America, discuss how fossil fuel companies are dealing with slimming profit margins, and look at how changing market realities are affecting the business.

Narrator | 00:02 - This is Sea Change Radio covering the shift to sustainability. I'm Alex Wise.

Tzeporah Berman (TB) | 00:16 - We are going to need to stop expanding fossil fuels and fossil fuel infrastructure and wind it down if we're gonna keep the earth safe, because we can argue all we want about the solutions to climate change. But the atmosphere doesn't negotiate.

Narrator | 00:35 - The environmental movement has made something clear: For the health of the planet, humans need to stop using so much fossil fuel. Period. Many efforts to reduce fossil fuel use focus on consumer behavior -- CAFE standards, electric vehicle subsidies, and the like are designed to lessen demand for these polluting fuels. Meanwhile, billions upon billions of dollars are being invested right now in new fossil fuel extraction projects across the globe. This week on Sea Change Radio, we speak with one of the environmental leaders working to stem the supply side of the equation. Today we are speaking with Tzeporah Berman of Stand.earth, and the Fossil Fuel Nonproliferation Treaty Initiative, about the work she and her colleagues are doing to keep fossil fuels in the ground. We examine the current state of pipeline projects in North America, discuss how fossil fuel companies are dealing with slimming profit margins, and look at how changing market realities are affecting the business.

Alex Wise (AW) | 01:55 - I'm joined now on Sea Change Radio by Tzeporah Berman. She's the chairperson of the Fossil Fuel Non-Proliferation Treaty. And the International program director for Stand.Earth Tzeporah. Welcome back to Sea Change Radio.

Tzeporah Berman (TB) | 02:06 - Hi. Thanks for having me.

Alex Wise (AW) | 02:07 - So, when we spoke to you last five years ago, you were purely working for Stand.Earth, but you, you've also expanded your role and started this fossil fuel non-proliferation treaty organization. Why don't you explain what it is and also catch us up with some of the work you've been doing at Stand.Earth, if you can. 

TB | 02:27 - Sure. The Fossil Fuel Treaty actually grew out of the work that I was doing at Stand.Earth. I think like many people in North America, I spent a bunch of years trying to understand, uh, how to stop, uh, new pipelines and oil drilling and fracking that is expanding in North America. And every time we stopped a pipeline, the oil industry proposed a new one somewhere else. You know, this is one of the most powerful industries on earth. And stopping one pipeline or stopping one oil or coil project, given the extent of the climate impacts of the oil and gas industry, really isn't good enough. And it felt like some terrible game of whack-a-mole. You know, we do all this work, we do all these legal challenges and work in communities to, to support communities and their opposition to these, to these big pieces of infrastructure to try and convince our governments to use the money for cleaner, safer infrastructure. And we'd often win.

Although indigenous people are responsible for a significant proportion of sustainable land stewardship across the planet, they are often overlooked and seldom invited to the table when policy decisions are made. This week on Sea Change Radio, we are pleased to welcome indigenous economist Rebecca Adamson to discuss her pioneering work in the sustainable development space. We examine the tribal investment model she helped create, look at how increasing transparency in natural resource extraction can better protect indigenous communities, and talk about the impact she has made as a board member for both nonprofits and corporate America.

Narrator | 00:02 - This is Sea Change Radio covering the shift to sustainability. I'm Alex Wise. 

Rebecca Adamson (RA) | 00:16 - What we have to do is get back to a place where our values are, what is driving the economy. This system can be reformed. 

Narrator | 00:27 - Although indigenous people are responsible for a significant proportion of sustainable land stewardship across the planet, they're often overlooked and seldom invited to the table when policy decisions are made. This week on Sea Change Radio, we're pleased to welcome indigenous economist, Rebecca Adamson, to discuss her pioneering work in the sustainable development space. We examine the tribal investment model she helped create, look at how increasing transparency and natural resource extraction can better protect indigenous communities, and talk about the impact she's made as a board member for both nonprofits and corporate America.

Alex Wise (AW) | 01:25 - I am joined now on Sea Change Radio by Rebecca Adamson. She is an indigenous economist, an indigenous rights activist, a serial social entrepreneur who focuses on connecting capital markets to community. Rebecca, welcome to Sea Change. Radio. 

Rebecca Adamson (RA) | 01:39 - Thank you. Thank you, Alex.

Alex Wise (AW) | 01:41 - It's a real pleasure to have you. First, why don't you explain what an indigenous economist is, and at the same time, if you can summarize your work in that space. 

Rebecca Adamson (RA) | 01:52 - Sure. And thank you so much for asking me about it. A lot of times the term indigenous economist just kinda shuts people down because it's like, what the heck could that be? Uh, but I think part of it started with my, my very first job and looking at indigenous schools and the rights for parents to be involved in the school. And as I went on and became a development practitioner in indigenous countries, what I was finding was the very way we looked at the world, the paradigm on how we perceived and organized ourselves was fundamentally different. And so when I began looking at both the schools where the purpose of the school was individual rights or individual progress, I was seeing Indian schools as being a social change agent within the community. And so there was a lot of peer tutoring. There was a collective sense in view of the education. As I got into development, it even got bigger. And when I began looking at what we called success in economic development sense, it didn't match our values. So if we saw a forest as successful, a beautiful living, breathing, large track of forest as successful, we weren't gonna be successful in the market unless we could measure board feet and, and come back in with a profit. So looking at the indigenous economy, I began really peeling apart the difference in what success was. And that's really what took me, uh, well, my whole career actually has been in that issue. And so in the sense of practice in the community, we got invol. I got in very involved in the Pine Ridge Reservation in South Dakota, the Lakota Nation, and looking at what would it mean there? And a lot of times economic development creates, have and have nots. And what we needed was a multiple income strategy that could create the most good and benefit for the most people, because that's the fundamental purpose of an indigenous econom...

Gallup poll data show that for the past forty years, majorities of Americans consistently perceive crime to be worse "this year" than the previous year, irrespective of the tremendous downward plunge in both property and violent crime during that same period. This week on Sea Change Radio, the second part of our discussion with former San Francisco District Attorney Chesa Boudin. In this episode, we examine why "tough on crime" legislation can have such deleterious outcomes, talk about the problems with recall elections, and look at the work Boudin has embarked on at the UC Berkeley School of Law. Then, we dig into the Sea Change Radio archives to revisit a portion of our previous conversation with Kevin Ortiz, a San Franciscan who learned firsthand how hard it can be to extricate oneself from legal entanglements.

Narrator | 00:02 - This is Sea Change Radio, covering the shift to sustainability. I'm Alex Wise.

Chesa Boudin (CB) | 00:22 - What percentage of people would vote for Joe Biden if the question put to voters were, shall Joe Biden continue to be president? Totally different question than who do you want to be the president, Joe Biden or Donald Trump?

Narrator | 00:35 - Gallup poll data show that for the past forty years, majorities of Americans consistently perceive crime to be worse "this year" than the previous year, irrespective of the tremendous downward plunge in both property and violent crime during that same period. This week on Sea Change Radio, the second part of our discussion with former San Francisco District Attorney Chesa Boudin. In this episode, we examine why "tough on crime" legislation can have such deleterious outcomes, talk about the problems with recall elections, and look at the work Boudin has embarked on at the UC Berkeley School of Law. Then, we dig into the Sea Change Radio archives to revisit a portion of our previous conversation with Kevin Ortiz, a San Franciscan who learned firsthand how hard it can be to extricate oneself from legal entanglements.

Alex Wise (AW) | 01:42 - I'm joined now on Sea Change Radio by Chesa Boudin. He is the executive director of the Criminal Law and Justice Center at the University of California Berkeley Law School. He's also the former district attorney of San Francisco. Chesa, welcome to Sea Change Radio.

Chesa Boudin (CB) | 01:57 - Great to be here with you.

Alex Wise (AW) | 01:59 - Now if we can talk about your successor, Brooke Jenkins. In 2022 convictions were up 37% under her administration. Then 2023 convictions were up 43%. This was something that they were touting putting people in jail to fight crime, but we know that that is not the solution. How do we get people to recognize that it's better to invest in solutions that are proven to work, Chesa?

Chesa Boudin (CB) | 02:26 - Yeah, I mean, here's the problem with, with those statistics in a vacuum. The problem with those statistics is that we were not seeking to maximize conviction rates when I was in office. We were seeking to maximize accountability. 

Alex Wise (AW) | 02:37 - When I put those stats out there, that can be twisted either way. She might tout that and I might be horrified by that, but…

CB | 02:44 - Yeah, but let me tell you what's problematic. If we were saying what percentage of cases that go to trial result in a conviction, that might be marginally useful to evaluate whether or not a district attorney is doing a good job choosing trial cases and presenting evidence to juries. But if you just look at overall conviction rates, what's missing that's critically important is cases that are dismissed because of successful completion of diversion or treatment programs. 

AW | 03:13 - And resources are limited. 

CB | 03:15 - Exactly. I got a phone call last night, literally last night out of the blue from a prosecutor who used to work for me, who's still in the office. And this prosecutor said to me, you know, I wasn't a true believer when you were the DA.

If you look at the data, you'll probably notice that traditional incarceration-focused criminal justice approaches are both extremely expensive and terribly ineffective. But, defying logic, they continue to be fairly popular. And when bold thinkers try to advance more sensible approaches, they sometimes get knocked down. In 2020, just days after Chesa Boudin's narrow election to become San Francisco's District Attorney (running on a platform of progressive reform), deep-pocketed out-of-state interests began the process of recalling him. The recall was successful, and in July of 2022 Boudin was unseated. His replacement, appointed by Mayor London Breed, was a member of his own prosecutorial team, Brooke Jenkins, who happened to have been one of the local leaders of the recall campaign. This week on Sea Change Radio, we welcome Chesa Boudin to the show for the first part of a two-part, far-ranging conversation to discuss his unique childhood with two incarcerated parents, evidenced-based approaches to criminal justice, and the bitter fight that nipped his promising tenure in the bud.

Narrator | 00:02 - This is Sea Change Radio covering the shift to sustainability. I'm Alex Wise.

Chesa Boudin (CB) | 00:19 - You can always, in any jurisdiction across the country, find some category of crime that in some period of time has gone up or has gone down. It's simply not an honest or effective way to think about either public safety or the role of prosecutors.

Narrator | 00:36 - If you look at the data, you'll probably notice that traditional incarceration-focused criminal justice approaches are both extremely expensive and terribly ineffective. But, defying logic, they continue to be fairly popular. And when bold thinkers try to advance more sensible approaches, they sometimes get knocked down. In 2020, just days after Chesa Boudin's narrow election to become San Francisco's District Attorney (running on a platform of progressive reform), deep-pocketed out-of-state interests began the process of recalling him. The recall was successful, and in July of 2022 Boudin was unseated. His replacement, appointed by Mayor London Breed, was a member of his own prosecutorial team, Brooke Jenkins, who happened to have been one of the local leaders of the recall campaign. This week on Sea Change Radio, we welcome Chesa Boudin to the show for the first part of a two-part, far-ranging conversation to discuss his unique childhood with two incarcerated parents, evidenced-based approaches to criminal justice, and the bitter fight that nipped his promising tenure in the bud.

Alex Wise (AW) | 01:45 - I am joined now on Sea Change Radio by Chesa Boudin. He is the executive director of the Criminal Law and Justice Center at the University of California Berkeley Law School. He's also the former district attorney of San Francisco. Chesa, welcome to Sea Change Radio.

Chesa Boudin (CB) | 02:18 - Great to be here with you.

Alex Wise (AW) | 02:20 - Why don't you first tell us about… how did your parents being incarcerated affect your path into criminal law?

Chesa Boudin (CB) | 02:28 - My parents were both arrested when I was 14 months old, and though I don't remember that day, or even when the judge sentenced my mother to 20 years to life, or when the judge sentenced my father to 75 years to life, my earliest memories as a child are waiting in lines to go through steel gates and metal detectors just to be able to see my parents, just to be able to give them hugs. I visited my parents in jails and prisons all across New York state over decades. My mom served 22 years before she was released. My father served 40 years before he was released. And so, you know, that experience was really a defining part of my childhood. Um, it's something that separated me from the other kids in my school, something that gave me a connection to a part of the American experience that I might not otherwise have had any awareness about, which is racism,