How To Sell Like A Copywriter | Salesman Podcast

On this episode of the Salesman Podcast, Andrew Bolton explains what a copywriter is and how the art of copywriting can make you a much better seller.

Andrew has been a copywriter for 12 years. He’s worked with some big brands and plenty of tiny ones too. He teaches copywriting on the Creative Advertising & Creative Writing courses at the University of Lincoln and is the author of bestselling book ‘Copywriting Is: 30-or-so thoughts on thinking like a copywriter’.

You'll learn:

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Featured on this episode:

Host - Will Barron Founder of Salesman.org Guest - Andrew Bolton Experienced Copywriter

Resources

• Andrew’s LinkedIn
• Book: Copywriting Is…: 30-or-so thoughts on thinking like a copywriter
• Book: On Writing Well: The Classic Guide to Writing Nonfiction
• Book: Read Me: 10 Lessons for Writing Great Copy
• Book: A Self-Help Guide for Copywriters

Transcript

Will Barron:

Hi, my name is Will, and welcome to today's episode of the Salesman Podcast. On today's episode, we're looking at how you can sell like a copywriter. Today's guest is Andrew Boulton. Andrew's been a copywriter for 12 years. He's worked with some big brands and plenty of tiny ones as well. He teaches copywriting on the creative advertising and creative writing courses at the University of Lincoln. And he is the author of the best selling book, Copywriting Is…: 30-or-So Thoughts on Thinking Like a Copywriter. With that, Andrew, welcome to the show.

Andrew Boulton:

Hello, thanks for having me.

Will Barron:

I'm glad to have you on mate. Copywriting is something that is top of mind for me at the moment as sales people move from, I guess, 20 years ago before I was in sales. I imagine you could knock on doors, you could pick up the phone, you could… The gift of the gab and a bit of a silver tongue probably open up quite a few doors, whereas the world we live in now, whether you are emailing, texting, creating content, whatever it is to get attention in the marketplace, clearly copywriting fit into all of this.

What is Copywriting and How Can We Use It To Improve Our Sales Processes? · [01:05]

Will Barron:

So with that said, though, I think there's going to be at least a few members of the audience, Andrew, that are unfamiliar with the term. Can you tell us just to get us started what copywriting is, if there's a definition of this, and then I guess what the goal of copywriting is for a salesperson, someone who needs to generate meetings and get deals done.

Andrew Boulton:

Yeah, of course. I think there's probably going to be more than a few people who aren't necessarily immediately familiar or very familiar with the term. And you mentioned at the start, I teach on a creative advertising course and a creative writing course, people who are very much young people who are primed to kind of go into those careers where copywriting is a very big part of kind of the industry and very few of those students know what copywriting is.

“Copywriting is simply using words to drive action.” – Andrew Boulton · [02:10] 

Andrew Boulton:

So sadly, I think it's one of those things that sort of slips under the radar. I think in essence, if you ask me to kind of summarise what it is, it's the business of kind of communicating about your brand, communicating about your product, ultimately trying to persuade your audience to do the thing you want them to do. It is kind of using words to drive action.

Andrew Boulton:

So regardless of what your business is or what your brand is or how you think or what you think kind of the big drivers and the big sort of pullers are within those organisations, words, and copy and your messaging and how you present yourselves and how you kind of communicate, what makes you good and sort of worthwhile comes down to copywriting. Whether you're currently using a copywriter or not, copywriting is kind of one of those big pillars that props up the effectiveness of how your business speaks to the people that you want to turn into customers and keep as customers.

The Art and Science of Copywriting · [02:50]

Will Barron:

For sure. Okay. So when we talk about persuading in sales, there is this constant battle. And I'm flipping on this. I go from one side to another. I've got a background in science, I've got a degree in chemistry, I'm a public scientist. So if there is data, if there's science, if there's a way to systemify things, I'm all in.

Will Barron:

But persuasion a lot of the time is leaning into people's emotions. There are many uncontrollables when we're going about persuading or influencing or lodging a prospect one way or the other. So with that said, is copywriting… Again, this is cliched in sales, but I don't know if it translates to copywriting. Is copywriting a science? Is it an art? Is it somewhere down the middle? Can it be measured? How do we know… I guess what I'm asking is, is it an art, is it a science? Then can we measure the effectiveness of copywriting?

Andrew Boulton:

I suppose in the same way you ask the question about sort of sales in general, yeah, it's a combination of those things and it becomes a very sort of dangerous and self defeating business if you feel compelled to kind of pigeon hole into one thing. So if I copywrite purely based on sort of science and data and what the spreadsheet tells me is likely to persuade people, you end up with something that probably lacks a lot of the kind of the heart and the human voice, that all good kind of messaging and communication requires.

Andrew Boulton:

Equally if I sat down and wrote a poem because I'm feeling it especially somehow artistic and creative, it might be very a beautiful writing, but it's very unlikely to do the thing I needed to do. So I think if you are looking for sort of the answer to that, it's kind of one thing propped on another. And usually in the process of copywriting, you probably start with some harder evidence or somewhat kind of concrete data to lean upon, even if it's nothing more spectacular than a relatively detailed view of who your customer is and what sort of motivates them.

Andrew Boulton:

But then I suppose it is still very much a kind of creative job, even if your starting point is based on insight and based on human truth, you then have to do something with that that makes it something people are going to want to read and want to notice and feel like they recognise and appreciate the voice. Because that's the only way you're ever going to kind of land that message.

“I could have all the data and the evidence, the facts and the science I like, if I don't sort of come up with a voice and a method of communicating that data such that people are going to care about watching or listening or kind of engaging with, then all of that has kind of been a waste.” – Andrew Boulton · [04:45]

Andrew Boulton:

I could have all the data and the evidence and sort of facts and the science I like. If I don't sort of come up with a voice and a method of communicating that that people are going to care about watching or listening or kind of engaging with, then all of that has kind of been a waste. I think when we talk to the students about copywriting and persuasion in particular, you try and train them that you can't just be expected to kind of pull these answers out of your own head.

Andrew Boulton:

If you take on this sort of first person perspective and just think about what would or would not persuade or engage you, then you are giving yourself a very limited frame of reference. And I think we try and introduce them as much as possible to some of the big thinkers in terms of sort of behavioural science. Richard Shotton and Choice Factory is a huge part of what we do, is training people to be creative advertisers.

Andrew Boulton:

Thaler and sort of the whole nudge theory with stuff we introduced, what Rory Sutherland is saying and Alchemy is a particularly important book for sort of the way we teach it. So I think it's one I've given you a really long and unhelpful answer that says I don't know. I think it absolutely has to be both, but what I do know for certain