unSeminary Podcast

Rich Birch
  • 4.7 (110)
  • Christianity
  • Updated Biweekly

stuff you wish they taught in seminary.

  1. 4d ago

    Why Gifted Pastors Still Crash: Four Honest Conversations About the Inner Life of a Leader

    Leadership failures rarely happen overnight. More often, they begin with unseen pressures, unresolved pain, and unhealthy patterns that slowly erode a leader from the inside out. In this special compilation episode, we bring together four candid conversations with experienced church leaders who openly share the personal struggles that nearly derailed their ministries. Rather than focusing on leadership strategies or organizational systems, this episode explores the inner life of church leaders. From burnout and unprocessed grief to stress management, character formation, and radical honesty before God, don’t miss the lessons that can help you build healthier, more sustainable ministries. Use these conversations as discussion starters with your teams, asking not simply how the ministry is doing, but how the leaders themselves are doing. Unprocessed Loss Eventually Takes Its Toll Bob Riedy reflects on the burnout that brought his ministry to a halt and the painful realization that decades of accumulated loss had never been properly grieved. The death of a family member, staff transitions, declining attendance after COVID, fractured relationships, and personal shame all compounded over time because he kept pushing forward instead of processing what he had experienced. His story is a powerful reminder that even successful leaders are vulnerable when they ignore the emotional weight of ministry. Key Takeaway // Pastors experience constant loss, but simply “moving on” isn’t resilience. Healthy leaders intentionally process grief with God before it silently grows into burnout, anxiety, or shame. Listen to the Full Episode // Burnout, Breakthrough, and the Road to a Healthier Ministry with Bob Riedy (May 29, 2025) Simple Practices Build Long-Term Resilience Charles Stone shares practical neuroscience-backed habits that help leaders reduce stress and remain emotionally healthy. Rather than offering complicated solutions, he begins with something every leader can practice immediately: intentional breathing. By slowing the body’s stress response through simple breathing exercises, pastors can create space to think clearly, regulate emotions, and respond wisely during difficult seasons. Key Takeaway // Resilience isn’t built during a crisis. It’s developed through consistent daily practices. Simple rhythms like intentional breathing can help pastors lower stress before it becomes overwhelming. Listen to the Full Episode // Leading Through Stress Without Burning Out with Charles Stone (July 3, 2025) Crisis Reveals Character Allen Holmes explains that gifted leaders often reach a defining crossroads when crisis exposes weaknesses beneath their talent and experience. Every leader eventually faces a moment when they must decide whether to hide behind their abilities or allow God to shape their character through hardship. Churches that embrace this perspective create cultures where leaders remain, grow, and mature instead of running from difficult seasons. Key Takeaway // Leadership development isn’t primarily about improving skills. Rather, it’s about allowing God to form character. Crisis often becomes the catalyst that moves leaders toward deeper maturity and lasting influence. Listen to the Full Episode // Why Gifted Leaders Still Fail: Lessons from 25 Years of Ministry with Allen Holmes (March 5, 2026) Honesty Before God Leads to Healing Scott Landry vulnerably recounts one of the darkest moments of his life after personal failure left him isolated, angry, and questioning God. Rather than meeting condemnation, he encountered God’s presence in the middle of his raw honesty. His story illustrates that true healing begins when leaders stop pretending, acknowledge what’s really happening inside, and allow God to meet them in their deepest pain. Key Takeaway // God doesn’t meet the version of us we project to others—He meets the person we truly are. Healing begins when leaders stop hiding and bring their deepest struggles honestly before Him. Listen to the Full Episode // Leading After You Lose Everything: Redemption, Honesty & The Fight with Scott Landry (December 18, 2025) This compilation reminds us that leadership health begins long before visible success or failure. Healthy churches are built by healthy leaders, and healthy leaders cultivate habits that address the condition of their hearts, not just the effectiveness of their ministries. Whether you’re leading through growth, challenge, or personal struggle, these conversations invite you to slow down, examine your inner life, and take intentional steps toward long-term faithfulness in ministry. Thank You for Tuning In! There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I’m grateful for that. If you enjoyed today’s show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they’re extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally! Episode Transcript Rich Birch — Hey friends, welcome to the unSeminary Podcast. So glad that you’ve decided to tune in. You know, the subtitle of our podcast is Stuff You Wish They Taught in Seminary. Rich Birch — And today I wish there was like a big underline under that word wish. I wish this conversation was a robust conversation when I was in school. Today we’re listening in on four senior leaders talking about really stuff that was going on on the inside when nobody was watching. Rich Birch — This is a good time of year for you and I as executive leaders to pull back and to think deeply about the kind of structures we’re building as an organization that really create a flourishing environment for our people. You know, we asked earlier in the year what your greatest fears were for this year and 24.8% of you indicated that staff health, structure, morale, succession were your top fear this year. And so today’s conversation, what we’re doing is listening in on four senior pastors who get really honest on the show about what was happening on the inside of them. Rich Birch — One of the churches that I was an executive pastor at, about a decade after I left, the senior leader made tragic decisions in their own personal life that ended up burning the church down, literally to the place where that organization doesn’t exist anymore. And from my understanding, actually the building is going to be demolished. Literally there’s nothing left. Rich Birch — A ministry that impacted tens of thousands of people doesn’t exist today because of the decisions of a senior leader. And so at this time of year, in the summertime, I want to challenge us to listen carefully to some leaders that have been through some horrific moments and have come out the other side more healthy. And I want us to learn from these moments and say, hey, what can we do to structure our ministry so that we can be the healthiest possible environments we can possibly be? Rich Birch — So up first, we’ve got Bob Riedy at Church of the Open Door, who hit a wall on a Sunday morning a few years ago, and he learned about ungrieved losses that took 40 years of ministry to see. So let’s listen in to Bob and see what you and I can learn as we think about the future. [Clip 1 Begins] Bob Riedy — I really do think that loss, and especially not properly processing and grieving loss, was a big part of what was behind all of this. In 2018, I lost my brother, my younger brother, who was really my wingman in so many ways. That was a loss that I think in some ways I’m still wrestling with. Bob Riedy — During the pandemic, we lost, pick a number, a lot of loss as far as attendance and stuff. At first, we were off for about four months, but then when we came back, people began to trickle in, and it was clear to me that we lost hundreds of people as well from our church during that time. That was probably a profound thing for me. Bob Riedy — We lost some key staff members as well during that time. We lost some friends because of the politics and some of the difficulty of that. And so I think loss was a big part of that. Bob Riedy — My counselor has really helped me a lot with that, not properly grieving loss. Terry Wardle is one who said that ministry is a series of ungrieved losses. And I found that I really wasn’t doing that good. I was shaking it off and just moving forward, shaking it off and moving forward, and not really grieving it and bringing God into it and surrendering it to Him. Bob Riedy — And I think part of what happened with that as well was I was concerned about what people thought. We were this powerhouse of a church, growing like crazy, and all of a sudden, like every other church, we were struggling. Bob Riedy — And I remember the day that I burned out. That afternoon my children all came to our apartment. My wife and I were living downtown, and my daughter reminded me of this the other day. And she said, Dad, do you know what you said to me that day? And I said, no. She said, Dad, you said to me, what are people going to think of me that this happened to me? Bob Riedy — And that was a loss that I wasn’t able to really properly wrap my head around. I was more concerned about how this was going to look with me as a Christian leader in our community. And then I think one of the places that the anxiety came from as well was shame. Bob Riedy — One of the things the enemy, I think, came after me with was like, you’ve been telling people here in York how to live for the last 15 years, and you let this happen to you. And wow, I wrestled with that as well. So I think that loss a

  2. Jul 23

    Don’t Let Your Building Become a Lid on Your Growth with Aaron Stanski

    Welcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re joined by Aaron Stanski, founder and CEO of Risepointe. For more than 15 years, Aaron and his team have partnered with growing churches and Christian schools across North America, helping them design facilities that remove barriers to growth and create environments where more people can encounter Jesus. In this conversation, Aaron shares some of the most common (and costly!) mistakes churches make during construction projects, along with practical strategies to avoid them. Don’t build today’s problem into tomorrow’s building. // One of the most common mistakes Aaron sees is phasing projects incorrectly. Churches may be tempted to build a larger auditorium while postponing essential components like increased parking, children’s space, or student ministry areas, assuming they’ll complete them in a future phase. Unfortunately, that second phase often gets delayed for years, leaving the church with a building that limits growth from day one. Instead of designing around what leaders hope they’ll afford later, Aaron encourages churches to build a complete project that fully supports their next season of ministry, even if that means reducing the overall size of the expansion. Create a long-term plan first. // Before drawing floor plans or establishing budgets, churches should develop a long-range vision for their campus. A master plan doesn’t mean building everything immediately. It simply provides clarity about where the church is heading. Once that long-term vision is established, leaders can determine the next right step that fits their current budget and ministry needs. Without that roadmap, churches can solve one immediate problem only to create another one a few years later. Short-term savings can become long-term expenses. // Budget pressure may lead churches to remove features or simplify systems in order to reduce construction costs. Aaron cautions that these decisions frequently create much larger operational expenses over the life of the building. Whether it’s HVAC controls, building systems, or maintenance-related decisions, saving a small amount during construction can result in years of higher operating costs. Churches need to evaluate every cost-saving measure through the lens of long-term stewardship rather than immediate affordability. Your facility should serve your mission—not become your mission. // Buildings are simply tools for ministry. The goal isn’t completing a construction project; it’s creating environments that help people take steps toward Jesus. Once the ribbon-cutting ceremony is over, the real work begins. Healthy churches continually evaluate guest experience, signage, gathering spaces, children’s environments, and overall functionality. Facilities should continue evolving alongside ministry rather than remaining frozen in time. Plan for growth before it arrives. // One surprising reality Aaron sees is that solving a facility constraint often produces immediate attendance growth. Sometimes this comes from new guests, but often it’s because existing attenders begin attending more consistently once parking, seating, or children’s capacity improves. Churches that don’t anticipate this surge can quickly find themselves facing another capacity challenge. Planning for success means considering what happens if the project works exactly as intended. Know when to start the conversation. // Aaron recommends churches begin facility planning long before they’re completely full. His general guideline is simple: when your largest service consistently reaches about 80 percent capacity, it’s time to begin exploring your options. That doesn’t mean starting construction immediately, but it does mean beginning strategic conversations, gathering data, and creating a long-term plan before your building becomes a lid on ministry growth. Courage is part of every construction project. // Building projects can feel intimidating because they involve significant financial commitments and countless unknowns. Aaron encourages leaders not to let fear drive their decisions. Throughout his career, he’s watched God repeatedly provide for churches that prayerfully stepped forward in faith while remaining focused on the mission rather than the building itself. The goal isn’t constructing impressive facilities—it’s creating spaces that help more people hear the gospel and experience life change. To learn more about Risepointe and download their free guide, Top 10 Mistakes Churches Make in Construction Projects, visit risepointe.com/unseminary. You can also schedule a free “Ask the Architect” conversation to discuss your church’s facility needs and long-term strategy. Thank You for Tuning In! There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I’m grateful for that. If you enjoyed today’s show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they’re extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally! Episode Transcript Rich Birch — Hey friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. So glad that you have decided to tune in Listen, I know that today’s episode is going to be particularly helpful to a lot of churches. I am consistently interacting with churches, asking questions about the things that we’re talking about today. It’s a real pain point that I know many of you are leaning in on. You’re going to want to stay tuned right to the the end.Rich Birch — Excited to have my friend and really an incredible leader and expert in this whole area of developing our facilities and using them to ultimately see people take steps closer to you, really leveraging architecture, interior design, graphic design, branding, all of that stuff.Rich Birch — Aaron Stanski is the founder and CEO of Risepointe. With 15 plus years of church design, leadership, and project management experience. He works not not only with churches, but also schools and nonprofits in a wide variety of contexts. Excited to have you on the show, Aaron. Welcome back.Aaron Stanski — Thank you, Rich. Excited to be back, man. This is fun.Rich Birch — Yeah, so good to see you again. And I wanted to get you back on because I feel like, man, this is a conversation that we’ve got to keep in front of people and keep thinking about these things. But for folks that don’t know, give us a picture of Risepointe and maybe particularly the types of churches that you help when you’re like, hey, here’s the kind of churches. Aaron Stanski — Yeah. Rich Birch — How do you think about that?Aaron Stanski — Yeah, I mean, Risepointe, I mean, we’re we’re an architecture and design firm. So we have architects, interior designers, graphic designers that work directly for us. And we work with churches and Christian schools um all across the U.S. and Canada. And for us, I mean, the typical churches or schools that we work with, are ones that are about growth and are about um what we call like the you know personal ownership of evangelism.Aaron Stanski — They are churches that are like, hey, it’s not about us. It’s about it’s about people who aren’t at our church yet. It’s not even necessarily about our students and raising up those students, but it’s about families that are considering what would it look like to you know grow up their their child in Christian education. And so yeah, for us, it’s about churches and schools that are growing and wanting to have an impact on the kingdom. So.Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s so good. And I know, you know, our facilities are such a key part of what we do. You know, it’s a critical piece of the puzzle. And, you know, it’s it’s not, it can be an accelerant. It can be, or or it can hold us back. It can be the kind of thing that can help us reach more people, connect more guests, or the kind of thing that hinder us from that.Rich Birch — And you’ve been doing this for 15 plus years. When a church first comes to you, let’s say they’re wrestling with these issues. What do most leaders think, not realize that they’re walking into? Aaron Stanski — Oooh. Rich Birch — Like they’re they’re like, hey, I think we got to like do something here to fix this. What what do they what do they stumble on that’s like, hey, maybe they they’re not aware of?Aaron Stanski — Oh, interesting. That’s a great question, Rich. I mean, I think most churches, like when they call Risepointe, I mean, they understand they’re talking to an architect. They understand that construction is going to be difficult or pricing and budgeting.Aaron Stanski — And we’re going to get into a lot of that here in the podcast. I think one of the things that they might not realize when they’re first starting is, you know, just the mental load that it’s going to take to carry a project through to completion.Rich Birch — that’s good.Aaron Stanski — I mean, it’s easy to think about, oh, yeah, we’re going to have some extra meetings or, oh, yeah, Risepointe is going to be running some things. But there’s just going to be an extra load when it comes to decisions that have to be made, conversations that have to be made with your congregation, your leaders, your staff.Aaron Stanski — And that that mental load over time can take a toll and it can certainly add to the stress if you’re not careful. So.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s good. I don’t know what the stat is, but I remember hearing that there’s some just a giant number of percentage of lead pastors, particularly or senior leaders who transition after… Aaron Stanski — Ye

  3. Jul 16

    “Daddy, Why Are You Here?” The Question That Exposed Burnout with Alvin Sanders

    Welcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re joined by Alvin Sanders, President and CEO of World Impact, an organization committed to equipping leaders to build healthy churches in every community experiencing poverty. After decades in pastoral ministry and leadership development, Alvin has become passionate about helping ministry leaders avoid one of the greatest threats to long-term effectiveness: burnout. Are you serving faithfully but feeling increasingly exhausted? Wondering how to sustain ministry for the long haul without sacrificing your health, family, or relationship with God? In this conversation, Alvin shares the personal lessons that transformed his own leadership after experiencing burnout. Tune in as he offers a practical framework for building a ministry that lasts. When work becomes worship. // Ministry itself can quietly become an idol. He didn’t intentionally choose work over God, but somewhere along the way, serving Christ replaced walking with Christ. Spiritual disciplines gave way to ministry responsibilities. Prayer, Sabbath, retreat, fasting, and personal communion with God slowly disappeared beneath endless demands. The result was a ministry that looked productive on the outside while becoming spiritually unsustainable on the inside. Return to the basics of spiritual formation. // Rather than searching for complicated solutions, Alvin returned to the foundational practices Christians have embraced for centuries. Prayer, engaging Scripture, fasting, Sabbath, retreat, generosity, commitment to the Church body, and intentional spiritual rhythms are not optional extras for ministry leaders. They are essential practices that sustain healthy leadership. Just as championship football teams return to blocking and tackling when they lose, pastors must continually return to the spiritual basics that anchor their lives. Pay attention to the warning signs. // In hindsight, Alvin sees numerous warning lights he ignored. His daughter once looked at him during dinner and innocently asked, “Daddy, why are you here?” because she had grown so accustomed to his absence. He gained significant weight, neglected his physical health, ignored emotional exhaustion, and consistently placed ministry ahead of family. None of these issues appeared overnight, but together they revealed a leader drifting toward collapse. Burnout is often less about one dramatic event and more about a thousand small compromises over time. Healthy leaders steward their whole person. // Pastors often underestimate the importance of caring for their physical and emotional health. Exercise is no longer something he squeezes into his schedule. Now, it is part of his workday because caring for his body directly affects his ministry. Likewise, emotional health is not separate from spiritual maturity. Leaders who fail to process stress, trauma, criticism, and disappointment eventually carry those burdens into every aspect of ministry. Healthy ministry begins with healthy people. A three-legged stool for sustainable ministry. // At World Impact, staff health is built around three interconnected priorities: spiritual formation, engaging stressors, and leadership development. Spiritual formation keeps leaders rooted in Christ. Engaging stressors helps them process trauma, maintain healthy boundaries, and avoid adopting a “savior mentality.” Skill development—including emotional intelligence, leadership growth, and contextual ministry effectiveness—equips leaders to serve wisely. Remove any one of these three “legs,” and long-term ministry becomes unstable. If you’re approaching burnout, don’t ignore it. // Alvin closes with practical encouragement for leaders who recognize themselves in his story. First, honestly acknowledge where you are instead of pretending everything is fine. Second, intentionally rest by embracing Sabbath, vacations, and healthy rhythms. Finally, if the burden runs deeper, don’t hesitate to seek help from a trusted counselor. Burnout isn’t a badge of honor—it is a warning that something needs attention. To learn more about Alvin or World Impact, visit worldimpact.org or connect with Alvin on LinkedIn. You can find his expanded book Redemptive Poverty Work on Amazon and his recent webinar on redemptive poverty work here. Thank You for Tuning In! There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I’m grateful for that. If you enjoyed today’s show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they’re extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally! Thank You to This Episode’s Sponsor: TouchPoint As your church reaches more people, one of the biggest challenges is making sure no one slips through the cracks along the way.TouchPoint Church Management Software is an all-in-one ecosystem built for churches that want to elevate discipleship by providing clear data, strong engagement tools, and dependable workflows that scale as you grow. TouchPoint is trusted by some of the fastest-growing and largest churches in the country because it helps teams stay aligned, understand who they’re reaching, and make confident ministry decisions week after week. If you’ve been wondering whether your current system can carry your next season of growth, it may be time to explore what TouchPoint can do for you. You can evaluate TouchPoint during a free, no-pressure one-hour demo at TouchPointSoftware.com/demo. Episode Transcript Rich Birch — Hey, friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. So glad that you have decided to tune in. Listen, I know you’ve got a million things going on this week. In fact, if you’ve got a lot of things going on, you really need to set aside the next half an hour or so to lean in on this conversation because I really think this is going to be helpful for you. I know it’s the kind of thing that you and your team is wrestling with plus we have a return guest on the podcast which what that indicates to you is this a person I want you to hear from. Honored to have Reverend Dr. Alvin Sanders with us he is the president and CEO of World Impact which empowers leaders to build healthy churches in communities of diversity and poverty. When urban leaders so when urban leaders are empowered that to own and lead their own ministry, individuals, families, and neighborhoods ultimately flourish. Super excited to have him with us. Enjoyed his episode from maybe a couple years ago and honored to have you back today. Alvin, welcome to the show. So glad you’re here.Alvin Sanders — Glad to be here, Rich, and thanks for having me back.Rich Birch — Oh, it’s great to connect a little bit. Why don’t you bring us up to speed? Tell us a little bit about yourself, about World Impact. Give us some context if people don’t remember.Alvin Sanders — Yeah, so President, CEO World Impact – our vision is a healthy church in every community experiencing poverty. We’re working to solve the problem that 95% of the world’s pastors have no formal ministry training whatsoever.Alvin Sanders — So we we try to bring that training to them and make it affordable and accessible. I don’t know if you’re paying attention to what’s going on in the Christian educational world right now in terms of universities, but it’s ugly out there. Rich Birch — Yes.Alvin Sanders — So we are really trying to make sure that people are equipped and they can be able to do ministry in the in the context that they’re called to do it.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s cool. Yeah. And I really, friends, I would commend you to to, if you don’t know World Impact, you should get to know them. You know, all them and the team do such good good work here. Well, we I want us I want you to take us back to 2007, so almost 20 years ago, which is insane to say that that’s 20 years ago, because it doesn’t feel like 20 years ago. It feels like just yesterday.Rich Birch — What was going on in your ministry and life? Yeah, kind of bring us into that part of the story. Let’s start there.Alvin Sanders — Yeah. So in 2007, I was wrapping up a 10-year project of planting and starting a church in inner city Cincinnati. And the denomination that I was a part of, the Evangelical Free Church of America, had offered me a position to leave the pastorate and to come work for them and run what’s called our “all people initiative”.Alvin Sanders — So me and my wife prayed, thought about it and said, yep, you know what? It’s time to make a good transition. And we made that transition. Yet for the first six months after that transition, we were, it was really a weird dynamic in the fact that when we would run into other people, people would say, hey, you guys look so much better than…, I mean, they didn’t say it this directly… Rich Birch — Right. Alvin Sanders — …but essentially what they were saying is you look so much better now that you’re out of the pastorate.Rich Birch — Right. What happened? You look great.Alvin Sanders — Yeah. What happened? You look good. Did you, did you lose weight? Did you, you know, glasses, whatever, you know?Rich Birch — Oh, no. You’re like, thank you, I think.Alvin Sanders — Yeah, and Rich, this wasn’t like a small amount of people. It was like every time we ran into people. So after about six months of this, we were like, okay, so what’s going on? And then we when we looked back in hindsight, felt like the last year or so of being in the pastorate, we had burned out.Alvin Sanders — And up until that point, I really didn’t know what burnout was. You kind of s

  4. Jul 9

    You Will Multiply Who You Are and What You Do with Dave Ferguson

    Welcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re joined by Dave Ferguson, co-founder of Exponential, co-founder of Community Christian Church, and author of Multiplier: How Healthy Leaders Create Lasting Impact. For decades, Dave has championed one central conviction: the Church will never fulfill its mission through addition alone. In this conversation, he challenges church leaders to rethink success, embrace multiplication, and cultivate the kind of personal health that sustains lasting kingdom impact. Are you building a church that grows, or a movement that multiplies? Wondering how your leadership today shapes generations of ministry tomorrow? Dave offers a compelling vision for creating influence that extends far beyond your own church. Multiplication changes everything. // Dave believes many church leaders are asking the wrong question. Instead of waking up each day asking, “How can I grow my church?” he challenges leaders to ask, “How can we multiply God’s Kingdom?” That subtle shift transforms every leadership decision, from staffing and budgeting to leadership development and church planting. Growth focuses on adding people to one church. Multiplication focuses on reproducing disciples, leaders, churches, and networks that reach beyond one church long after the original leader steps away. The Church needs a new scorecard. // Only a small percentage of churches in the United States are actively reproducing new churches. Through Exponential’s “16% Mission,” the goal is to move enough churches toward multiplication that reproducing churches become the cultural norm rather than the exception. Reaching this tipping point would fundamentally reshape how churches think about mission and influence. Culture beats strategy every time. // Multiplication doesn’t begin with a sermon series or a strategic initiative—it begins with culture. Dave encourages leaders to model multiplication long before they publicly announce it. Whether leading a small group, mentoring an apprentice, or developing future leaders, pastors must demonstrate the behaviors they hope to reproduce. People adopt what leaders consistently practice far more readily than what they merely promote. Health fuels multiplication—not hustle. // While multiplication requires intentional effort, Dave warns against building ministry on relentless hustle. Instead, healthy multiplication grows out of healthy leaders. Churches don’t simply reproduce strategies. They reproduce the character, priorities, and habits of their leaders. If leaders neglect their own well-being, they will unintentionally reproduce that same dysfunction throughout the organization. Watch the four gauges. // At the heart of Dave’s new book, Multiplier: How Healthy Leaders Create Lasting Impact, is a simple daily framework for preventing leadership drift. He encourages leaders to evaluate four areas every day: relational health, physical health, mental health, and spiritual health. By honestly assessing these four “gauges,” leaders can recognize unhealthy patterns before they become major failures. Rather than waking up years later wondering how they drifted so far, leaders make small course corrections every day. Even better, Dave encourages processing these areas with trusted community, since accountability helps combat self-deception. Think beyond your lifetime. // Ultimately, Dave invites leaders to adopt a longer horizon for ministry. Buildings, attendance, and personal accomplishments eventually fade, but investing in people creates lasting kingdom influence. When leaders intentionally multiply healthy disciples and healthy leaders, their ministry continues bearing fruit long after they’re gone. That, Dave believes, is the kind of legacy worth pursuing. To learn more about Dave Ferguson, Exponential, and his new book Multiplier: How Healthy Leaders Create Lasting Impact, visit exponential.org/multiplier or daveferguson.org. Email Dave directly to get bulk copies of his book. Thank You for Tuning In! There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I’m grateful for that. If you enjoyed today’s show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they’re extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally! Episode Transcript Rich Birch — Hey friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. So glad that you have decided to tune in. You’re in for a real treat today. Today is a leader, you know, you have those leaders in your life. You’re like, man, I wish everybody could be exposed to this person and would follow along. And you feel like you’re introducing a friend to friends. That’s what today’s conversation is. And I hope at the same time, it’ll challenge you and encourage you as we think about the future. Rich Birch — Excited to have Dave Ferguson back on the podcast from Exponential. It is a growing community of leaders committed to accelerating multiplication of healthy, reproducing faith communities. They equip multipliers through a variety of resources. You might know their big event, Exponential, but that’s not all they do. They do a lot of other stuff as well.Rich Birch — Dave also was the co-founder of Community Christian in Chicagoland and New Thing. We actually had Ted on recently for a follow-up episode, which is fantastic. So these will this will come out at a similar time. Dave also wrote a book recently that I want you to pick up. It’s called Multiplier: How Healthy Leaders Create Lasting Impact. Dave, welcome to the show.Dave Ferguson — Hey, thanks, Rich. Good to be with you. Rich Birch — Yeah, so glad you’re you’re here. Why don’t you fill in the story for folks that don’t know or maybe aren’t following along. Maybe give us fill out the bio a little bit. Tell us a little bit about your background.Dave Ferguson — Long story short yeah, in my early mid-20s I planted a church in Chicago with a whole bunch of friends. God was very very kind to it; it grew had pretty large, and we had locations across the city and the suburbs. Out of that, then we started planting churches. Our first one was in Denver, then Southern California, and then Detroit, then New York, then Boston. And pretty soon we made a shift that we went from not only reproducing new churches, but helping reproduce networks of new churches. And that turned out to be a bigger deal than and we realized.Dave Ferguson — And we got opportunities then to do that in Europe and then in Africa. And next thing you know, fast forward 15, 20 years, and we were in 69 countries. And this will sound better than it is, but we got to help plant over 35,000 churches. Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s incredible. Dave Ferguson — And at the same time, we also started Exponential. And so all three of those things had seemed to have God’s favor on it, grew. And in the last year, I apprenticed a new lead pastor, Ted Coniaris, that you referenced, who is, I guess, recently on the podcast… Rich Birch — Yes, yes. Dave Ferguson — …and who’s doing a great job at Community.Dave Ferguson — And then then on top of that, we moved New Thing underneath Exponential. So Exponential actually acquired New Thing. And for us, that feels really good. It was pretty, pretty easy transition, but feels really good because we have something we call the 16% mission that we’re going after. And it’s starting to feel actually achievable now. Rich Birch — Yeah, it’s so cool. Dave Ferguson — So I think I think that’s all that’s all the things.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s that’s it. Just that’s it. Yeah, that’s amazing. It’s so good. And, you know, there’s a lot I respect about you and your leadership. But one of the core things I love is you’ve really given your life to multiplication. You’re focused on this idea, helping us think about and then really in the best sort of way, poking and prodding and pushing us to come back to this idea. Rich Birch — I think for many of us, the word multiplication is the kind of thing we can hear it so many times. We can kind of tune it out or it like, what does that actually mean? Aren’t we all committed to multiplication? Isn’t it, isn’t that just what it means? So why does it still matter to the church today? Really lay it on thick here. Why is multiplication such a big deal?Dave Ferguson — Yeah. I mean, two things real quick. I mean, one for every one of your listeners, if they’re involved in ministry, I mean, they want, they they’re trading their life and they want to make the greatest impact they can. And I’m telling you, when you don’t invest in multiplication, you’re short selling yourself. You’re not going to, you’re not going to get to make the kind of impact that God intended for you to, or you possibly could.Dave Ferguson — So, I mean, Let me give you a quick example, so it becomes real tangible.Dave Ferguson — So two weeks ago, I was in Long Beach, California, and I ran into Matt Larson. Matt’s a guy who did a leadership residency with us probably, man, it’s been a long time ago now, 15 years ago. So he basically came, spent a year with us at Community, really sharp leader, but he didn’t really understand how to multiply. And we kind of helped him understand how to do that. Dave Ferguson — So he does that, goes back to Ventura, California, plants Anthem Church, and they’ve planted 15 churches. Rich Birch — Wow. Wow. Dave Ferguson — So think about this and this this. And I don’t know how you keep score, but this is how I keep score with my own, how am I making a d

  5. Jul 2

    Following a 31-Year Pastor and Growing Faster Than Ever with Eric Holmstrom

    Welcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re joined by Eric Holmstrom, Lead Pastor of Purpose Church in Pomona, California. Founded more than 150 years ago, Purpose Church has a rich legacy of ministry and is currently experiencing significant growth following a healthy leadership transition. In this conversation, Eric shares lessons from succeeding a beloved long-tenured pastor, building on an existing culture, and leading a historic church into a new season of impact. Are you preparing for a succession transition—or wondering how to lead after a highly respected predecessor? Eric offers practical wisdom on navigating change with humility, honoring the past, and creating momentum for the future. Following a beloved predecessor. // Succeeding a pastor who led for 31 years can feel intimidating, and Eric is refreshingly honest about the insecurities he faced. During the transition process, he wrestled with feelings of inadequacy and wondered whether he was the right person for the role. Yet he found confidence not in his abilities, but in God’s calling. A defining moment came on the morning of the congregational vote when he reflected on Isaiah 41:13: “I am the Lord your God who takes hold of your right hand and says to you, do not fear; I will help you.” That promise became an anchor throughout the transition. The gift of a healthy handoff. // Eric credits much of the success of the transition to the generosity and wisdom of former lead pastor Glenn Gunderson. During the public handoff, Glenn introduced Eric to the congregation as “your new lead pastor” and then added, “and my new lead pastor.” That simple statement communicated trust, unity, and support. Glenn also intentionally stepped back for several months to allow Eric to build relationships with the congregation before gradually returning to participate in ministry. The result was a transition marked by health rather than division. Focus on what only you can do. // One of Eric’s biggest adjustments was determining how to spend his time as lead pastor. He quickly realized he could be involved in almost anything, but shouldn’t be. Instead, he narrowed his focus to vision, spiritual direction, staff development, and culture. While pastoral care remains important, he sees his primary role through the lens of Ephesians 4: equipping leaders who then shepherd and disciple others throughout the church. You are not the exception—you are the example. // One of the most significant initiatives Eric introduced was an employee spiritual commitment for church staff. He noticed a tendency among ministry leaders to unintentionally exempt themselves from practices they encourage others to embrace. Reading Scripture, serving, giving, participating in groups, and pursuing spiritual growth are not just expectations for church members—they are expectations for staff as well. After months of discussion, clarification, and prayer, the entire staff committed to a shared set of spiritual standards designed to strengthen culture and integrity across the organization. Building an intentional invite culture. // Purpose Church has also seen momentum through strategic “Sunday Funday” invite events. Rather than creating dramatically different experiences, these Sundays closely resemble a normal weekend service while adding elements that make inviting easier. Eric intentionally tells the congregation exactly what will be taught and who the message is designed for, helping members identify specific people to invite. This approach has contributed to increased attendance, more baptisms, and a growing number of people taking first steps toward faith. Shepherd people where they are. // Looking back, one of Eric’s biggest lessons is the importance of meeting people where they are emotionally during a transition. Some church members were grieving the departure of a beloved pastor, while others were brand new and excited about the future. Rather than forcing everyone into the same experience, Eric sought to pastor each person according to their unique journey. This posture of empathy helped create trust during a potentially difficult season. To learn more about Purpose Church, visit purposechurch.com or follow their ministry online for resources, messages, and updates. Thank You for Tuning In! There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I’m grateful for that. If you enjoyed today’s show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they’re extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally! Lastly, don’t forget to subscribe to the podcast on iTunes, to get automatic updates every time a new episode goes live! Thank You to This Episode’s Sponsor: Risepointe Do you feel like your church’s or school’s facility could be preventing growth? Are you frustrated or possibly overwhelmed at the thought of a complicated or costly building project? Are the limitations of your building becoming obstacles in the path of expanding your ministry? Have you ever felt that you could reach more people if only the facility was better suited to the community’s needs? Well, the team over at Risepointe can help! As former ministry staff and church leaders, they understand how to prioritize and help lead you to a place where the building is a ministry multiplier. Your mission should not be held back by your building. Their team of architects, interior designers and project managers have the professional experience to incorporate creative design solutions to help move YOUR mission forward. Check them out at risepointe.com and while you’re there, schedule a FREE call to explore possibilities for your needs, vision and future…Risepointe believes that God still uses spaces…and they’re here to help. Episode Transcript Rich Birch — Hey friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. So glad you’ve decided to tune in and you’re going to be rewarded for that today. We’re having a conversation that I know there’s a whole bunch of leaders that are on the front end of this decision. And today you’re going to get a chance to kind of peek up over the horizon and see potentially where your church is going to be in a few years. You’re going to want to stick around for this entire conversation. We’ve got Eric Holmstrom with us. He is the lead pastor of Purpose Church, which is in Pomona, California. Rich Birch — It originally started as Spadra, if I’m pronouncing correct, Baptist Church 150 years ago. It’s one of the fastest growing churches in the country. It’s diverse, multi-generational of every age and stage. And Eric has been the lead pastor since 2024. Welcome to the podcast. So glad you’re here.Eric Holmstrom — Well, thank you so much, Rich, for having me. I am a huge fan of you and what you’re doing. I love how you’re supporting and helping church leaders and ministry leaders. So thanks for letting me join you today.Rich Birch — Oh, come on. That’s super kind. Glad you’re here and really looking forward to learning from you today. Why don’t you kind of give us a bit of your story and tell us a little bit about Purpose and kind of set the context for us.Eric Holmstrom — Yeah, well, Rich, that’s really cool too that you knew the name of our original church. It was Spadra Baptist, I think, was back in the day.Rich Birch — Spadra.Eric Holmstrom — And it’s actually, our church is 156 years old. So our church was started three years before the city of Pomona even became a city. And so a group of people came into this area and felt God calling them to plant a church here. And for 156 years, we’ve been in different parts of the city, but always here in Pomona, feeling called by God here. And so I am lead pastor number 19. Rich Birch — Wow.Eric Holmstrom — And so I’m just a blip on the radar here. And unless Jesus returns, Lord willing, there will be lead pastor 21, 20, or 20, 21, 22, 23. And they won’t even remember me. They won’t even know anything about me and God will continue to do a great work through this church. Eric Holmstrom — So I came here, my wife Sarah and I came here. We had one kid at the time, Charlie, and we came here 13 years ago. And you know felt like, this is a great, healthy church. The lead pastor, our our former lead pastor, Glenn Gunderson, just an amazing man of God. Him and his wife, Kimberly, and their family, they led here for 31 years as our lead pastor and just such a legacy leader.Eric Holmstrom — So when we got here, I started as the high school pastor and, I you know, wasn’t sure how long we’d be here. Loved the ministry, loved that ah there is a multi-generational, very diverse congregation here in terms of even diverse socioeconomically.Eric Holmstrom — So I love the opportunity to get to do youth ministry. That’s what I was passionate about and excited about and just wanted to faithfully follow God. I mean, that’s where my story of faith really began was going into my freshman year of high school. That’s when I got saved. That’s when I gave my life to Christ. I was at a camp, summer camp, went there looking for a girl and I found God. And my life was forever changed because of that, because of this camp and the local church that discipled me.Eric Holmstrom — And so got into youth ministry, came here, ah was a high school pastor for 10 years here, did a total of 18 years in youth ministry, and then began to sense that God was calling me and my family to step into this new season. And our lead pastor was encouraging of that. He really saw that in m

  6. Jun 25

    Stop Losing First-Time Guests: What’s Working at the Front Door Right Now

    If there’s one thing church leaders should be obsessed with, it’s the front door. In this special compilation episode, we’ve pulled together four conversations from leading churches and ministry organizations that are seeing success in helping first-time guests move from curious visitors to fully engaged disciples. The challenge facing churches today is different than it was even a few years ago. Guests are arriving with different motivations, different expectations, and different questions. Churches that continue using yesterday’s assimilation strategies may unintentionally lose people God is already drawing. Don’t miss the four critical lessons every church should consider as they prepare for the fall ministry season. From changing guest motivations to intentional follow-up systems, discipleship pathways, and data-driven care, each conversation offers practical insights that can help churches better connect with the people walking through their doors. People Are Coming to Church Looking for God Greg Curtis shares a remarkable shift he’s seeing among first-time guests, particularly younger adults. Where people once came primarily looking for community, support, or practical life help, many are now arriving already searching for God. In some cases, they’ve already begun reading Scripture, exploring faith, or experiencing spiritual curiosity before ever attending a service. This means churches must be prepared to engage people with greater intentionality from the moment they arrive. Key Takeaway // Many first-time guests are no longer casually checking out church. They’re arriving with genuine questions about God and faith, often after beginning a spiritual journey on their own. Churches must be prepared to meet that curiosity with intentional next steps. Listen to the Full Episode // They’re Looking for God … Don’t Miss Them: Fixing Your Church’s Assimilation Problem with Greg Curtis & Tommy Carreras (March 26, 2026) Follow-Up Can’t Be Left to Chance John Sellers explains how Journey Church creates a clear and repeatable process for helping guests take their next step. Through intentional touchpoints—including a welcoming first interaction, relational next-step environments, and a six-week follow-up process involving texts, emails, phone calls, and personal invitations—the church ensures guests don’t simply attend once and disappear. Consistent follow-up may not be flashy, but it remains one of the most effective growth strategies churches can implement. Key Takeaway // Fast-growing churches rarely rely on a single welcome interaction. They build systems that encourage guests to take multiple steps over several weeks, increasing the likelihood that visitors become connected participants. Listen to the Full Episode // From Guests to Baptisms: Building Clear Next Steps with John Sellers (November 13, 2025)  A Clear Pathway Helps People Keep Moving Ashley Lentz outlines Lutheran Church of Hope’s discipleship pathway, which helps leaders identify where people are spiritually and what their next step should be. Rather than treating every attendee the same, the church intentionally helps people move from seeker to believer, from believer to follower, and ultimately into servant leadership. The framework creates clarity for both staff and volunteers while helping people continue growing long after their first visit. Key Takeaway // People are far more likely to stay engaged when churches provide a defined pathway for spiritual growth. Clarity helps both guests and leaders understand what comes next. Listen to the Full Episode // Clarity Is Kindness: Simplifying Next Steps in a Growing Church with Ashley Lentz (September 18, 2025)  Data Is a Tool for Shepherding, Not Just Administration Ronee de Leon of TouchPoint challenges churches to view their database as more than a record-keeping system. Using her framework of Conviction, Collection, Clarity, and Care, she explains how churches can use data to proactively identify opportunities for discipleship and connection. Effective data practices ensure people do not fall through the cracks and allow churches to provide personalized care at scale. Key Takeaway // Churches cannot effectively shepherd hundreds—or thousands—of people through memory alone. Healthy systems and meaningful data help leaders identify opportunities for connection, care, and discipleship before people drift away. Listen to the Full Episode // From Data to Discipleship: The Four Cs Every Church Needs with Ronee de Leon (April 30, 2026)  This episode serves as a timely challenge for church leaders preparing for the months ahead. As more spiritually curious people walk through church doors, the question isn’t whether guests are coming. It’s whether our systems, pathways, and follow-up processes are prepared to help them stay. The churches seeing the greatest impact are not leaving assimilation to chance. They’re intentionally creating environments where people can move from a first visit to a life transformed by Jesus. Thank You for Tuning In! There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I’m grateful for that. If you enjoyed today’s show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they’re extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally! Episode Transcript Rich Birch — Friends, Rich here from the unSeminary Podcast. Thanks so much for tuning in. We’ve got a very special compilation episode for you.Rich Birch — Listen, I have heard echoes of similar things happening over the last year or so on the podcast, so we’re pulling together these episodes because I want to point out to you critical lessons for your church, particularly here in the summertime, as you think about what are some things that we should be reloading for this fall. Listen, friends, you know, and I know that you and I are a part of the local church and the local church is the only organization in the world that exists for people that are not here yet. You and I should be fanatically focused on the front door.Rich Birch — We should be first-time-guest-obsessed. And on today’s episode, I want to peek in on four discussions that talk about changing dynamics when it comes to connecting with first time guests. And no conversation around this whole area of assimilation would be complete without talking to and listening to Greg Curtis. Rich Birch — If you do not know Greg, where have you been? He’s been at Eastside Church for the last decade running their assimilation work. And he’s really seeing some interesting shifts in particularly young adults when it comes that I keep seeing across the country. And in this clip, he’s going to open up and tell you about a subtle shift that he has seen and some of the changes they’ve made around assimilating people when they come in.Rich Birch — Now, today’s conversation, we’re going to really frame around Greg’s three part model. We talk about the screen to the seat, the seat to the circle, and then the circle to the street. We want you to understand that how we’re connecting with guests today is different than what it looked like five years ago.Rich Birch — It’s definitely different than what it looked like pre-COVID. So let’s listen in first and see if we can catch what Greg is seeing and think about the dynamics that you’re seeing at your church. Listen in to what Greg’s got to say… [Clip 1 Begins]Rich Birch — People get assimilated, get connected. What have you noticed maybe something that’s maybe different in the way people are engaging right now that’s different than maybe even a year or two ago?Greg Curtis — A crescendo over the last two years has been remarkable in its shift towards—this is going to sound crazy because we’re talking to churches—they’re wanting God now. And what I mean by that is prior, we were having to sell the benefits of following Jesus – most growing churches, which there are. And I think it was a compelling thing to share with the culture.Greg Curtis — And so people were coming to church to find community, to find help with parenting, to find support in marriage or to, you know, a variety of different things. And so the draw and what was causing people to engage with church was really, what help in my life? How can I increase the quality of my life? Maybe even get some pretty powerful pain points addressed. Greg Curtis — This has shifted. I’ll put it in the terms of our young adult pastor. His name is Charles. He came to me. He said, Greg, prior to two, three years ago, maybe not even that long, he said young adults were coming, 80% of them to find friends and community, and about 20% to find God.Greg Curtis — He goes, it’s flipped. It’s flipped. Now it’s 80% God and 20% community.Greg Curtis — And that has expressed itself in some remarkable ways. I’ll just throw two out. At the end of last year, I was covering somebody, a pastor who was going to baptize somebody after the service. He had to be gone. So I said, yeah, I’ll cover it. So in our context, I’ll meet that person ahead of time and kind of show them where to sit in the service, when to come out, where the baptistry is, et cetera.Greg Curtis — And I met her. She was 28 years old, named Connie. And I said, as we’re walking through the baptistry, so, you know, I asked these typical questions: how long have you been coming to Eastside, which is my church?Greg Curtis — And she says, oh, I’ve never been to Eastside. I was like, oh, so you’re from our online campus. And she goes, no,

  7. Jun 18

    Hero Dependence Is a Terrible Growth Strategy with Tim Foot

    Welcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re joined by Tim Foot, CEO of Slingshot Group. With nearly three decades of ministry and leadership experience having worked with thousands of churches, Tim brings deep insight into one of the most critical drivers of church health: your team. In this conversation, we explore what separates stagnant teams from those that create real momentum and how leaders can shift from survival to remarkable impact. Why teams stall out. // After working with thousands of churches, Tim consistently sees the same patterns: unclear expectations, misaligned priorities, lack of structure, and unspoken tension. Many teams are overly task-driven but underdeveloped relationally. Others don’t fully understand how their strengths and weaknesses fit together. The danger of “hero-driven leadership.” // When a church relies too heavily on one standout leader to carry the mission it results in what Tim calls “hero-driven leadership.” While it can produce short-term results, it ultimately leads to burnout, unrealistic expectations, and fragile systems. Leaders often fall into this trap because it feels productive, and even rewarding, to be the one with all the answers. But over time, it limits team development and creates dependency instead of shared ownership. From hero to team. // The future of healthy ministry is team-based leadership. Instead of building ministries around individuals, churches must build systems and cultures where teams thrive together. This requires leaders humbly admitting they don’t have all the answers and a willingness to slow down in order to build alignment. When leaders shift from being the “hero” to developing others, they unlock far greater long-term impact. The seven “key signatures” of remarkable teams. // Tim introduces a framework of seven core areas that every healthy team must develop: conviction, message, culture, roles, systems, friction, and risk. These “key signatures” work together like elements in music, providing structure that leads to a strong, unified outcome. Conviction anchors the mission (“why we exist”), while message communicates that mission clearly. Culture shapes how people experience the team, and roles define how individuals contribute. Systems enable growth, friction drives improvement, and risk fuels breakthrough. Why friction is actually healthy. // One of the most counterintuitive ideas Tim shares is that healthy teams need friction. Many leaders try to eliminate tension, assuming harmony equals health. But in reality, the absence of friction often means important issues are being avoided. Healthy friction leads to better ideas, stronger alignment, and greater innovation. The key is ensuring it doesn’t become personal. When friction turns relationally destructive, it’s unhealthy. But when it stays focused on ideas and outcomes, it becomes a powerful driver of growth. A practical tool for leaders. // To help teams take action, Tim points leaders to a free “team awareness assessment.” This tool helps churches evaluate how they’re doing across the seven key signatures, identifying areas of strength and opportunities for growth. It’s designed to spark meaningful conversations that lead to real change. A final challenge for leaders. // Tim leaves leaders with a simple but powerful reminder: if your mission matters, your team matters more. Churches often focus heavily on the people they’re trying to reach, but neglect the health of the people they’re leading alongside. Sustainable, mission-moving ministry requires both. To learn more about Tim’s book Reaching for Remarkable: The 7 Key Signatures Behind Every Remarkable Team and take the free team assessment, visit reachingforremarkable.com or explore additional resources at slingshotgroup.org. Thank You for Tuning In! There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I’m grateful for that. If you enjoyed today’s show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they’re extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally! Thank You to This Episode’s Sponsor: TouchPoint As your church reaches more people, one of the biggest challenges is making sure no one slips through the cracks along the way.TouchPoint Church Management Software is an all-in-one ecosystem built for churches that want to elevate discipleship by providing clear data, strong engagement tools, and dependable workflows that scale as you grow. TouchPoint is trusted by some of the fastest-growing and largest churches in the country because it helps teams stay aligned, understand who they’re reaching, and make confident ministry decisions week after week. If you’ve been wondering whether your current system can carry your next season of growth, it may be time to explore what TouchPoint can do for you. You can evaluate TouchPoint during a free, no-pressure one-hour demo at TouchPointSoftware.com/demo. Episode Transcript Rich Birch — Hey friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. So glad that you have decided to tune in. Listen, listen, listen, pull in close because today’s conversation, I don’t even know your church, but I know that a large portion of your budget is being spent on the thing we talk about. In fact, lots of churches, it’s like half of their budget. And it’s an even larger portion of the outcome of your ministry. It’s incredibly important what we’re talking about today. And so you do not want to miss this. Rich Birch — And we’ve got an expert that has worked with not tens of, not hundreds of, but literally thousands of of churches like yours and wants to help you take steps forward. Excited to have Tim Foot with us. He has nearly 30 years of experience, which I’m not sure how that’s possible, such a young man, as a leader, pastor, coach, speaker, musician in both Australia and North America, bringing a diverse background to his role as the CEO and president of Slingshot Group. If you’re not aware of who Slingshot Group is, they take the guesswork out of nonprofit and church staffing. He’s recently written a book that I’m excited for you to learn more about. But Tim, welcome to the show. So glad you’re here.Tim Foot — Rich, it is so glad, it’s so great to be on with you today. I’m excited about this conversation.Rich Birch — So good. I’m I’m excited for it too. Why don’t you kind of give us a bit of the Tim Foot background? Tell us a little bit about about you and kind of give us the how do we end up here in this conversation today?Tim Foot — Yeah, it’s interesting. I often say to people, I had no idea that I’d be on the other side of the world to where I started doing what I’m doing. But this is what happens, Rich, when you say, keep saying yes to God.Tim Foot — Born and raised Tasmanian, worked as a musician and in ministry in Sydney for 10 years after moving from Tasmania, then relocated to Boulder County, Colorado in 2002, been here for 25 years now in ministry at a great church called Lifebridge Christian Church. Built ministry there for 10 years and went bivocationally started working with the Slingshot Group when there was a handful of us doing a handful of staffing and coaching work and then things exploded.Tim Foot — And I really, really hit my sweet spot and saw how God had been preparing me for so many years to work with teams, love teams, love the strategy of teams, love working with people, love the fact that placing the right leader on the right team exponentially moves the mission forward and affects culture in all kinds of ways.Rich Birch — So true.Tim Foot — And so I’ve had all kinds of roles in Slingshot over the years, now get to lead our team of amazing consultants around the US serving so many, and beyond, serving so many ministries and teams move mission forward.Rich Birch — Love it. I’m so glad that, yeah, this is going to a good conversation. You know, one of the things I want to take advantage of is the fact you’re really an expert. You know, you’ve worked with, you and Slingshot have worked with thousands of churches and organizations, and you you really get a chance to see churches at an interesting inflection point.Rich Birch — You know, often when we’re hiring a team member, bringing someone in or trying to develop our teams, you know, we’re thinking about the future and we’re, we’re taking a step back. And like you say, I do think it’s a transformative inflection point that you’re involved in. Rich Birch — So you’re sitting across the table from a lot leaders, and maybe even some leaders who their mission is stalling. Like things aren’t maybe going as well as we would hope. Are yeah there any patterns in that you’re seeing, are there things that you see time and time again in churches that might be holding us back?Tim Foot — Yeah, I immediately thought of a common question we’ll ask teams when we’re brought in when it comes to needing a new person on the team or helping coach leaders. We’re often brought in in crisis moments, moments of transition, but they’re also moments of incredible opportunity.Tim Foot — And we’ll often ask the question, hey, do you want a painkiller or do you want a vitamin? And so often the the team is thinking they want the painkiller, they want the pain to go away. They want to solve the problem, they want to fill the seat, or they want to break through whatever it is they’re struggling with. But honestly, deep down, they need to start a regimen of vitamins to help them get to a healthy place to move the missi

  8. Jun 11

    74 Million People Want the Bible but Can’t Navigate It with John Plake

    Welcome back to another episode of the unSeminary podcast. Today we’re joined by John Plake, Chief Innovation Officer and Editor-in-Chief of the State of the Bible research at the American Bible Society. With decades of experience as a pastor, missionary, professor, and researcher, John brings a unique perspective on how people are actually engaging with Scripture and what we should do about it. The “movable middle” is growing. // One of the most significant insights from recent research is the rise of what John calls the “movable middle”—millions of people who are open to the Bible but not yet engaged with it. This group has grown by approximately nine million people in recent years. They are curious, interested, and even positive toward Scripture, but they lack the tools, confidence, or guidance to engage it meaningfully. This represents a massive opportunity for churches willing to step in and help. People want a guide. // Through focus groups and research, John discovered that many people in the movable middle feel intimidated by the Bible. They struggle with language, context, and navigation. But perhaps most striking is they want help. Contrary to what some leaders might assume, they are not rejecting the church as a guide. In fact, many say, “If we can’t trust the church to help us understand the Bible, what good is it?” This creates a clear invitation for churches to step into a more relational, guiding role in discipleship. A surprising discipleship gap. // One of the most sobering findings is that nearly half of weekly church attenders are not regularly engaging Scripture on their own. While churches invest heavily in preaching and programming, many people are not developing personal habits of Bible engagement. John suggests that churches often focus on delivering content rather than equipping people to engage Scripture themselves. The result is a gap between what happens on Sunday and what happens in everyday life. From teaching to equipping. // If churches want to close that gap, they must shift from being primarily content providers to equipping environments. This means helping people develop the skills, habits, and confidence to read and apply Scripture on their own. It also requires understanding the real barriers people face, like time constraints, confusion, or lack of community support, and addressing those barriers with practical solutions. A new tool for churches. // To help leaders take action, the American Bible Society has developed the “Next Step for Church” assessment. This free tool allows churches to measure spiritual health, Bible engagement, and key leadership behaviors within their congregation. Within a few weeks, leaders receive a detailed, data-driven report highlighting strengths, challenges, and suggested next steps. Data that leads to discipleship. // John emphasizes that data is not an end in itself; it’s a tool for better shepherding. By listening to their congregation at scale, leaders can identify patterns, confirm instincts, and prioritize what matters most. The assessment surfaces both what’s working and where growth is needed, giving churches a clear path forward. It also connects individuals to personalized Scripture engagement resources, helping them take their next step spiritually. Why Scripture engagement matters most. // Nothing has a greater impact on spiritual growth than a person’s relationship with the Bible. In fact, Scripture engagement accounts for a significant portion of overall spiritual health. When people consistently engage with God’s Word, transformation follows—affecting beliefs, behaviors, and relationships. Signs of hope for the future. // Despite broader cultural challenges, John sees encouraging trends, especially among younger generations. Millennials and Gen Z show increasing openness to Scripture, even if they are still exploring. While overall trends may appear flat, meaningful change is happening beneath the surface. For churches willing to engage this moment, there is real opportunity for impact. To explore the research further or access the free church assessment, visit church.nextstep.bible and begin discovering how your church can better equip people to engage Scripture every day. Thank You for Tuning In! There are a lot of podcasts you could be tuning into today, but you chose unSeminary, and I’m grateful for that. If you enjoyed today’s show, please share it by using the social media buttons you see at the left hand side of this page. Also, kindly consider taking the 60-seconds it takes to leave an honest review and rating for the podcast on iTunes, they’re extremely helpful when it comes to the ranking of the show and you can bet that I read every single one of them personally! Lastly, don’t forget to subscribe to the podcast on iTunes, to get automatic updates every time a new episode goes live! Thank You to This Episode’s Sponsor: Risepointe Do you feel like your church’s or school’s facility could be preventing growth? Are you frustrated or possibly overwhelmed at the thought of a complicated or costly building project? Are the limitations of your building becoming obstacles in the path of expanding your ministry? Have you ever felt that you could reach more people if only the facility was better suited to the community’s needs? Well, the team over at Risepointe can help! As former ministry staff and church leaders, they understand how to prioritize and help lead you to a place where the building is a ministry multiplier. Your mission should not be held back by your building. Their team of architects, interior designers and project managers have the professional experience to incorporate creative design solutions to help move YOUR mission forward. Check them out at risepointe.com and while you’re there, schedule a FREE call to explore possibilities for your needs, vision and future…Risepointe believes that God still uses spaces…and they’re here to help. Episode Transcript Rich Birch — Hey friends, welcome to the unSeminary podcast. I am so glad that you have decided to tune in today. This is one of those episodes that there’s a great resource in it that going to want to make sure you engage with. There’s super helpful content. Plus it’s about an area that I know so many of us are thinking about, we’re wondering about, we’re asking questions about. Rich Birch — So super excited to have John Plake with us today. He is the chief innovator ah innovation officer and editor-in-chief of the State of the Bible Research Series, which comes from the American Bible Society. And they’re on a mission to make the Bible available to every person in a language and format each can understand and afford so that all may experience its life-changing message. ABS has really a whole bunch of different tools and approaches, and we’re excited kind of expose a little bit more about that today. John has been in ministry over 30 years. We’ll just call it over 30 years. And it served as a pastor, missionary, professor, researcher. John, welcome to the show. So glad you’re here.John Plake — Thanks so much for having me today. It’s great to be with you.Rich Birch — Why don’t you fill in the picture a little bit? Tell us a little bit about your background. You know, what brings you to your current work?John Plake — Yeah. Closer to 40 years now. Rich Birch — Nice. Yeah, yeah. That’s great.John Plake — It’s a little uncomfortable to talk about that.Rich Birch — That’s great.John Plake — Yeah. You know, I start out like a lot of people in ministry. I grew up in a home that ministry was central. Actually, both my grandfathers were ministers. My father was a minister. Ministry is kind of the family business in a way, but I really did sense a direction from God when I was about 15 years old to to pursue full-time ministry.John Plake — There was some detail around that. Ended up going to Bible college and and then started what turned out to be about nine years of full-time pastoral service. And I hadn’t been in that for very long before I realized that everything I learned in Bible College was preparing me to serve a generation that no longer existed in a culture that was gone. John Plake — And I thought, my goodness, I know God’s word pretty well. And mean, I’m a lifelong learner of God’s word. I love the Bible. And yet, didn’t really know culture very well. And I didn’t develop those tools until just years and years of practice, some missionary service, wonderful teachers at at Wheaton College and graduate school and and just a lifelong journey of learning.John Plake — So at American Bible Society, when I got here, the State of the Bible, program or this research project was already underway. And we’d been helped out by the Barna Group, which does some wonderful foundational work. And eventually it just kind of grew up and it got to a place where we had an internal team that was running it ourselves, now in collaboration with the National Opinion Research Council or NORC at the University of Chicago. We just do, I think, what is the largest ongoing study of Americans’ relationship with the Bible and faith and the church. And we get to talk about it all the time. Rich Birch — Yeah, I love it.John Plake — So, I mean, this is the best job in the world.Rich Birch — Yeah, that’s so good. It’s it’s great research, something that I think should be on the kind of list of things that we need to be paying attention to. It’s been a gift to the church for so long and something that we should continue to to pay attention through. Now, let’s talk about you specifically. You spent three plus decades. I didn’t want to say almost 40. You know, I’m not saying that. I’m not saying that. I could say that, you know, a couple years ago, I

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About

stuff you wish they taught in seminary.

Information

  • Creator
    Rich Birch
  • Years Active
    2013 - 2026
  • Episodes
    300
  • Rating
    Clean
  • Copyright
    © unSeminary & Rich Birch
  • Show Website
    unSeminary Podcast

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