Communion & Shalom David Frank and TJ Espinoza

Transformation is a tricky word in Christian circles, particularly when we’re talking about sexuality. What does it mean to be “transformed”? For a gay man, does it mean “no longer gay”? And what does that mean??
We talked with Nate Oyloe and Luca Jo Groppoli from Agape First Ministries, an organization dedicated to discipling and seeking God’s transformation. In our framing on this podcast, we would call their organization “side X”—that is, generally pursuing and seeing the good in people becoming “ex gay.” Since this isn’t a position we (David and TJ) hold, we were eager to have a conversation about our similarities and differences: personal stories, theological and pastoral approaches, and what the heck transformation could mean. It’s a tough one.
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About Our Guests
Pastor Nate Oyloe is the founder and director of Agape First Ministries. Nate has ministered to the sexually and relationally broken since 2000. He has taught nationally on issues of gender and the redemptive power of God. He and his wife, two sons, and daughter live in Minneapolis, MN.
Luca Jo Groppoli is an ordained graduate of Christ for the Nation's Bible College. Luca serves as the associate director with Agape First Ministries and is passionate about disciple making and sharing that Jesus can and does, in fact, transform people, sharing her own story of living as a transgender male for over three decades.
www.agapefirstministries.org
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Note: This episode uses the terms “Side X” and “Side B” (and others) as shorthand quite a bit. If you’re new to the conversation, you might find it helpful to check out Communion & Shalom episode #3, where we talk through the four “sides”: ⁠#3 - A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality⁠
Timestamps
(00:46) Introducing Nate and Luca
(08:09) What has finding freedom meant to you?
(10:59) Why Agape First? What is it you do?
(17:04) What's the nature of same-sex attraction: psychological, traumatic, biological, spiritual?
(36:10) Transformation: shifting away from same-sex attraction?
(57:06) Praying for healing: over disabilities, over sexuality?
(01:01:52) Statistics and experience: does being "ex-gay" actually stick?
(01:09:58) Is side B more dangerous than side A?
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If you like this podcast, please consider…
→ Sharing feedback or questions! communionandshalom@gmail.com
→ Supporting us on Patreon! patreon.com/communionandshalom
→ Following us on Instagram! @communionandshalom
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Credits
Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza
Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson (www.carlswensonmusic.com)
Podcast Manager: Elena


This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit communionshalom.substack.com

Join us for a special in-person episode where we, TJ and David, share highlights and insights from our time at the Revoice Conference. We discuss the conference's mission, our personal experiences, and key takeaways on fostering community and kinship within the church. Honestly, words utterly fail to express all that Revoice meant for us and the other 500+ who attended.
Highlights mentioned:
* Times of Worship
* Worship Leader Wes
* Misty Irons and David Bennet
* Affinity Groups
* Breakout engagement
* Hospitality and overall conference schedule
* Connecting with incredible people
A few other highlights not mentioned:
* Multicultural leadership
* Multilingual and ASL representation
* Breakout by Sister Heather Kristine
* Brenna Blain’s Francis Chan vibes

- Link to Revoice Conference videos (free for one year!): https://revoicelibrary.sardius.live/


This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit communionshalom.substack.com

Coming in hot, folks… David Frank and TJ Espinoza reflect on sex positivity and how they see parts of the Christian Bible interacting with sexual desire, goodness, transcendence, and meaning. There’s nothing simple about the relationships between sex, marriage, having kids, pleasure, and our spiritual callings. But in those tensions, we also see goodness and fruitfulness. We hope that this discussion prompts more thinking for you all on what a comprehensive Christian sexual ethic can look like.
This episode includes content suitable for adult audiences; listener discretion is advised.
Note: This episode uses the terms “Side A” and “Side B” as shorthand quite a bit. If you’re new to the conversation, you might find it helpful to check out Communion & Shalom episode #3, where we talk through the four “sides”: ⁠#3 - A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality⁠.
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Timestamps
(03:23) What Sex Positive Usually Means
(10:48) Evangelical Churches Are Just As Pro-Sex
(16:55) Genesis, Song of Songs, Leviticus, Matthew, Revelation
(17:51) Sexual Difference in the Garden (Genesis)
(19:02) Consent Is Biblical (1st Corinthians)
(20:13) Erotic Poetry Isn't Smut (Song of Songs)
(26:04) Sex Is...Transcendent?...But NOT Worship (Leviticus)
(45:33) Jesus: Yeah, but... there's no marriage in heaven (Matthew)
(51:32) The (Sexless?) Bride of Christ (Revelation)
(53:31) Let's Hear It for... Sex Mediocrity!
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Links and References
We referenced these sections of the Bible in this episode:
* Genesis 2-3
* Songs of Songs/Solomon (whole book)
* Leviticus 15:18
* Matthew 22:30
* Revelation 19
* James 1:17
* Isaiah 56:3-5
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If you like this podcast, please consider…
→Sharing feedback or questions! communionandshalom@gmail.com
→Supporting us on Patreon! patreon.com/communionandshalom
→Following us on Instagram! @communionandshalom
—
Credits
Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza
Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson (www.carlswensonmusic.com)
Podcast Manager: Elena


This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit communionshalom.substack.com

Coming right up, some hot takes from Greg Coles on:
* Why would you call yourself gay if you’re a Christian? That’s not your identity…
* Wouldn’t it be better if you got married (to someone of the opposite sex)?
* How do I talk to [person] about [LGBTQ sexuality topic we disagree on]?
If you are gay and Christian, or know someone who’s gay and a Christian, somebody in your life is asking these questions, and a whole lot more. This episode is for you, for sharing, and for further discussion.
Background: In Spring 2024, Greg Coles talked with a group of college students and campus ministers. We thought it was such a great primer on thinking Christianly about sexuality that we wanted to share it with you, slightly echo-y room and all.
This is not the end of the conversation—please reach out with your questions, comments, and further discussion!
About Our Guest
Greg is the author of Single, Gay, Christian: A Personal Journey of Faith and Sexual Identity and No Longer Strangers: Finding Belonging in a World of Alienation. You can find most of his creative activities curated at gregorycoles.com and at The Center for Faith, Sexuality & Gender.
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Timestamps
(02:42) Greg on writing Single, Gay, Christian and his PhD
(05:01) Why use "gay" to describe yourself as a Christian?
(09:34) A vision for marriage-free abstinence and delight in the body
(17:01) Theological vs practical questions on sexuality
(20:30) Changes in sexual orientation: happens? is normative? Mixed orientation marriages?
(25:12) Marriage and singleness as complements
(30:08) How am I a gift to the body around me?
(33:16) Q&A: Straight Catholic priests can CHOOSE celibacy or marriage
(37:05) Q&A: Concerns about taking the identity of being gay
(43:13) Q&A: How do I love my lesbian sister well?
(46:53) Q&A: Discipleship convos: I can't believe in Jesus if it means THIS for LGBTQ people...
(51:46) Q&A: Sharing the gospel in an identity politics world
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Links and References
Gay and Catholic and Tenderness by Eve Tushnet
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If you like this podcast, please consider…
→Sharing feedback or questions! communionandshalom@gmail.com
→Supporting us on Patreon! patreon.com/communionandshalom
→Following us on Instagram! @communionandshalom
—
Credits
Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza
Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson (www.carlswensonmusic.com)
Podcast Manager: Elena



This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit communionshalom.substack.com

Tim Otto is a man of intentional commitments: he lives in intentional Christian community; he pastors a church in San Francisco; he’s also gay and celibate, while still affirming gay marriage (Side A). Tim talked with co-hosts TJ and David Frank about his book Oriented to Faith, compassionate approaches, “third way” communities and “disputable” theological differences, celibate partnerships, and the importance of close community living.
Tim was a kind and engaging dialogue partner and we loved having this conversation with him! No matter where you land on the faith and sexuality topics, we hope our discussion ministers to you also.
About Our Guest
Tim Otto has lived in an intentional Christian community called Church of the Sojourners for 34 years and is one of its co-pastors. He has a Master of Theology degree from Duke Divinity School, is the author of Oriented to Faith: Transforming the Conflict over Gay Relationships, and loves walking around the Mission District of San Francisco, where he lives. You can find his recent writing on Substack at “Living in Extraordinary Love”: https://timotto.substack.com
For $10 off Revoice registration, use PROMO CODE: RevoicePod
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Note: We use the terms “Side A” and “Side B” as shorthand quite a bit. If you’re new to the conversation, we recommend listening to our episode #3, “A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality.” Here’s a quick summary:
* "Side A" generally refers to the perspective that affirms God can bless same-sex marriage and sexual relationships.
* “Side B” recognizes people experience same-sex sexual attraction and may describe that experience by a variety of words or identity terms while still holding to the historical Christian sexual ethic of marriage between a man and a woman, and sex within marriage.
Timestamps
(1:13) Tim's book: encouraging dialogue and love across sides
(8:03) Idolatry of the "traditional family"
(16:11) Taking a vow of celibacy as a side A gay man
(21:38) Our takes: on the authority and continuity of Scripture
(34:27) What traditionalist viewpoints do you find most compelling?
(38:54) What has moved you toward an affirming position?
(42:55) Are celibate partnerships gnostic?
(52:56) What makes a healthy/acceptable marriage? (same-sex, polyamory, polygamy…)
(1:07:18) How does San Francisco influence you?
(1:14:24) Bonus question: the "common purse" in Tim's community
Links and References
For your easier searching…
* Sacred Cows: Exploring Contemporary Idolatry by J.A. Walter
* The Drama of Scripture: Finding Our Place in the Biblical Story by Craig Bartholemew and Michael Goheen
* Kevin Vanhoozer, theologian
* Tenderness: A Gay Christian’s Guide to Unlearning Rejection and Experiencing God’s Extravagant Love by Eve Tushnet
* “Century of the Self” documentary is on Youtube
* Theology of the Body by Pope John Paul’s
If you like this podcast, please consider…
→ Sharing feedback or questions! communionandshalom@gmail.com
→ Supporting us on Patreon! patreon.com/communionandshalom
→ Following us on Instagram! @communionandshalom
—
Credits
Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza
Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson (www.carlswensonmusic.com)
Podcast Manager: Elena


This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit communionshalom.substack.com

Nate Collins has been part of the Christian conversation around faith and sexuality for decades. He founded Revoice, a conference and ministry for queer/same-sex-attracted Christians, and he’s written two books on the topic. Also, Nate is himself gay or same-sex-attracted and in a mixed-orientation marriage. We are looking forward to sharing Nate’s and Revoice’s story with you, and also encouraging you to attend the Revoice conference with us this summer!
PS: at Revoice2024, come visit TJ and David at our workshop on (Re)discovering Kinship beyond Marriage. We would love to talk to you!
For $10 off Revoice registration, use PROMO CODE: RevoicePod
About Our Guest
Nate Collins is the founding president of Revoice, a ministry with a mission to support and encourage gay, bisexual, same-sex attracted, or other queer Christians—and those who love them—to live out the historic Christian doctrine of marriage and sexuality. He is the author of All But Invisible: Exploring Identity Questions at the Intersection of Faith, Gender, and Sexuality (Zondervan, 2017), as well as a forthcoming volume about sexuality in the Biblical Theology for Life series from Zondervan Academic. He has an Masters of Divinity and PhD from Southern Baptist Theological Seminary. Nate and his wife, Sara, live in St. Louis, MO, with their three children.
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Note: This episode uses the terms “Side A” and “Side B” (and X, Y) as shorthand quite a bit. If you’re new to the conversation, you might find it helpful to check out Communion & Shalom episode #3, where we talk through the four “sides”: ⁠#3 - A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality⁠
Timestamps
(1:42) Who is Nate, apart from Revoice?
(10:04) On "mixed orientation marriages”
(23:18) Joining the faith & sexuality conversation over 20 years
(47:40) Fruit of Revoice: Hope in flourishing, community
(49:40) Aaand the Revoice conference promo code
(50:26) Does Side B "mandate celibacy"?
(54:57) Talking "Side X", pursuing change, new creation
(1:01:14) Identity politics for Christians
Links and References
Here are some resources or terms we mentioned in this episode, in case it’s helpful for your understanding and/or Google searching…
Spiritual Friendship blog: spiritualfriendship.org/Nashville Statement: cbmw.org/nashville-statement/GCN=Gay Christian NetworkQCF=Queer Christian FellowshipExodus=Exodus International Ministries
If you like this podcast, please consider…
→ Sharing feedback or questions! communionandshalom@gmail.com
→ Supporting us on Patreon! patreon.com/communionandshalom
→ Following us on Instagram! @communionandshalom
—
Credits
Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza
Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson (www.carlswensonmusic.com)
Podcast Manager: Elena




This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit communionshalom.substack.com