Impossible Tradeoffs with Katie Harbath Katie Harbath

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This is the last episode of season 2! Thank you all for listening. I’ll be taking a break over the summer and returning with season 3 in the Fall. Between now and then, I might be planning a few summer spectacular episodes, so keep your eyes out.
I couldn’t have asked for a better person to end the season with. Renee DiResta joins me this week to discuss her background and journey into researching the anti-vaccine movement, the impact of social media on public opinion, and the concept of 'invisible rulers' in her book 'Invisible Rulers.’ She also explores the role of influencers in shaping public opinion and the ethical considerations of platform algorithms in content distribution. She delves into the challenges of researching algorithms, the evolution of content control on platforms, and the politicization of her work. Additionally, she shares insights on the importance of engaging in the face of misinformation and the shaping of public opinion.
Takeaways
* Renee's background spans various roles, leading to her involvement in researching the anti-vaccine movement.
* The impact of social media on public opinion and the lack of counter speech and narrative is a significant concern.
* The concept of 'invisible rulers' and the role of influencers in shaping public opinion is explored in her book 'Invisible Rulers'.
* Ethical considerations of platform algorithms in content distribution, particularly the distinction between free speech and free reach, are important to address.
* Challenges of researching algorithms and content control on platforms
* The politicization of research work and the importance of engaging in the face of misinformation
* Insights on the shaping of public opinion and the impact of algorithms on society
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This week Claire Wardle and Daniel Bramatti discuss their work in creating fact-checking coalitions around elections as a follow up to the guide we published back in April. They highlight the importance of collaboration and trust-building among news organizations and social media platforms. They also discuss the challenges they faced in handling misinformation during elections, such as dealing with blackouts and coordinating with tech companies. They emphasize the need for continuous adaptation and updating of strategies as bad actors evolve their tactics.
Overall, they highlight the progress made in building resilience and awareness among the public, but also acknowledge the ongoing challenges in combating misinformation. The conversation explores the challenges and strategies of fact-checking during elections, with a focus on the Comprova project in Brazil and the CrossCheck project in France. The guests discuss the importance of collaboration among news organizations, the role of technology and AI in fact-checking, and the need for media literacy to combat misinformation. They also address the business incentives and funding models for fact-checking, as well as the potential impact of AI-generated content on trust and democracy.
Takeaways
* Collaboration and trust-building among news organizations and social media platforms are crucial in creating effective fact-checking coalitions.
* Handling misinformation during elections requires continuous adaptation and updating of strategies as bad actors evolve their tactics.
* Building resilience and awareness among the public is essential in combating misinformation.
* Challenges in fact-checking include dealing with blackouts, coordinating with tech companies, and addressing less talked about disinformation tactics.
* Panic responsibly and avoid catastrophizing the issue of misinformation. Collaboration among news organizations is crucial for effective fact-checking during elections.
* Fact-checkers need to empower journalists in different countries to adapt and implement fact-checking strategies that work within their political and media systems.
* Fact-checking on encrypted platforms like WhatsApp requires innovative approaches, such as creating tip lines for users to submit content for fact-checking.
* The decision of what to fact-check should be based on the potential harm the misinformation can cause, with a focus on content that can affect public health or democracy.
* News organizations need to balance the business incentives of fact-checking with the responsibility to provide accurate information and build trust with the audience.
* AI-generated content poses new challenges for fact-checkers, and there is a need to educate the public about the tactics and techniques used to create and spread misinformation.
* Preparing for elections and other major events requires proactive fact-checking and spreading good information to prevent the spread of misinformation.
* Building resilience in societies and fostering collaboration among fact-checkers, researchers, and technology experts is essential to combat misinformation and maintain trust in democratic processes.
Chapters
* Introductions
* Creating Fact-Checking Coalitions
* Structure and Methodology of Fact-Checking Coalitions
* Trust-Building with Social Media Platforms
* Handling Misinformation During Elections
* Challenges in Brazil's Elections
* Changes and Evolutions in the Field of Fact-Checking
* Addressing Less Talked About Disinformation Tactics
* Building Collaborations and Empowering Journalists
* The Role of Users in Fact-Checking
* Prioritizing Fact-Checking Based on Harm
* Pre-Bunking and Proactive Fact-Checking
* Educating the Public about Misinformation Tactics
* Building Resilience and Collaboration


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I’m so honored to have my good friend and expert extraordinaire Kat Duffy as my guest this week. I have no words other than you should listen to everything she says.

Summary
Kat Duffy, a senior fellow for digital and cyberspace policy at the Council on Foreign Relations, discusses her work in the trust and safety space and her role in leading the Trust and Safety Task Force. The task force brought together a diverse group of experts to explore the evolving landscape of trust and safety, with a focus on the intersection of technology, human rights, and humanitarian law. The project aimed to map the ecosystem, capture insights, and provide concrete recommendations for philanthropies and private funding. The conversation also touches on the challenges of consensus-building and the importance of including voices from the global majority in these discussions. The conversation explores the concept of the global majority and its relevance in the tech industry. The term 'global majority' refers to individuals and countries that are not at the leading edge of revenue models or political interests. The discussion highlights the lack of cultural diversity and understanding in tech, as well as the challenges faced by countries with fragile political and economic systems. The conversation also touches on the impact of regulations on trust and safety efforts, the need for independent expertise in civil society, and the future implications of technology in societal governance.
Takeaways
* The Trust and Safety Task Force brought together a diverse group of experts to explore the evolving landscape of trust and safety. Read the report here.
* The task force aimed to map the ecosystem, capture insights, and provide concrete recommendations for philanthropies and private funding.
* Consensus-building in the trust and safety space can be challenging, but it's important to include multiple perspectives and create dialogue.
* Including voices from the global majority is crucial in shaping discussions and decisions in the trust and safety space. The term 'global majority' refers to individuals and countries that are not at the leading edge of revenue models or political interests in the tech industry.
* Tech often lacks cultural diversity and understanding, reflecting the perspectives of a small group of thinkers.
* Countries with fragile political and economic systems face unique challenges in the tech space.
* Regulations can divert resources from trust and safety efforts and hinder innovation.
* Independent expertise in civil society is crucial for effective governance and impact assessment.
* The future of technology requires a better understanding of its implications and the involvement of diverse perspectives.
Chapters
* Introduction and Background
* Trust and Safety in Different Contexts
* The Trust and Safety Task Force
* The Impact of Generative AI
* Creating Room for Entrepreneurship and New Approaches
* Adapting to the Fast-Paced Nature of the Trust and Safety Space
* Including Voices from the Global Majority
* Understanding the Global Majority
* Tech's Lack of Cultural Diversity
* Challenges in Fragile Systems
* Impact of Regulations on Trust and Safety
* The Need for Independent Expertise
* Future Implications of Technology


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ACK! I totally forgot to schedule this last night. So sorry for my delay.
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This week we welcome Nina Jankowicz to the podcast. She talks about the importance of recognizing Russia's use of disinformation as a geopolitical strategy and the need for more vocal online presence in countering disinformation. Nina also shares her observations of the impact of Russian disinformation during the 2016 US election from her vantage point in Ukraine. She discusses her research on disinformation in Central and Eastern Europe and the limits of counter disinformation programming.
Nina then talks about her role in the Disinformation Governance Board and the misconceptions and attacks it faced. She emphasizes the importance of balancing free speech and protecting the information environment, citing examples from Germany, Singapore, Ukraine, and Brazil. The conversation covers various topics related to disinformation, online harassment, and the American Sunlight Project (of which I’m an advisor). It highlights the global nature of disinformation and the interconnectedness of these issues. The conversation also explores the challenges faced by women online, including gendered and sexualized abuse.
The American Sunlight Project is introduced as a new initiative to combat disinformation and promote truth and transparency in the discourse. The importance of transparency and accountability in tech platforms and government is emphasized.
Takeaways
* Recognizing and addressing Russia's use of disinformation as a geopolitical strategy is crucial in countering disinformation.
* The impact of Russian disinformation during the 2016 US election was significant, and the hubris of the United States in responding to it was concerning.
* Counter-disinformation programming often faces challenges in balancing its goals with free speech considerations.
* The Disinformation Governance Board faced misconceptions and attacks, highlighting the need for clear communication and understanding of its purpose.
* Balancing free speech and protecting the information environment is complex, and different countries have approached it differently. Disinformation is not limited to foreign actors and is often based on pre-existing social fissures.
* Women face gendered and sexualized abuse online, which has a silencing effect.
* The American Sunlight Project aims to promote truth and transparency in the discourse and inform voters.
* Transparency and accountability are crucial in addressing disinformation and online harassment.
Key Links
* Wilson Center: Freedom and Fakes: A Comparative Exploration of Countering Disinformation and Protecting Free Expression
* MSNBC: New documents show how disinformation expert was unfairly tarred
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Kate Dommett, a professor of digital politics, discusses her book “Data-Driven Campaigning and Political Parties” and her research on how political parties use data in election campaigns. She explores the prevailing narratives around data-driven campaigning and how they often do not match reality. Dommett also discusses the role of regulation in data-driven campaigning and the potential threats to democracy. She emphasizes the need for a nuanced understanding of data use in campaigns and the importance of considering the regulatory environment and data security.
Takeaways
* Data-driven campaigning is not a new phenomenon, but the use of digital technology has disrupted traditional accountability systems.
* The regulatory environment and electoral systems vary across countries, leading to different practices in data-driven campaigning.
* Campaigns use data for targeting, mobilization, and message development, but the level of sophistication varies.
* The role of online platforms in data-driven campaigning raises questions about access, responsibility, and unintended consequences.
* Data security is a significant concern in data-driven campaigning, especially for smaller parties with limited resources.
* Academic research should draw on historical lessons and theory to provide a responsible and nuanced understanding of the impact of new technologies, such as AI, on elections.
Chapters
* Introduction and Background
* Types of Data and Decision-Making
* Role of Online Platforms in Data-Driven Campaigning
* Concerns and Challenges in Data-Driven Campaigning
* Responsible Research on New Technologies in Elections
Links
* Katharine Dommett, Glenn Kefford, and Simon Kruschinski, Data-Driven Campaigning and Political Parties
* Amy Orben, The Sisyphean Cycle of Technology Panics
* Fabio Votta at al.  Who Does(n't) Target You? Mapping the Worldwide Usage of Online Political Microtargeting 


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Sorry for the slight delay today. The tech gods were not being kind.
Watch this on YouTube!
NOTE: A lot of this summary and show notes were generated via a new AI tool by Riverside.fmIn this episode, Brian Fishman, co-founder and chief strategy officer at Cinder, discusses his background in studying terrorism and his work at Facebook. He shares insights on the early days of using the internet for research on terrorist organizations and the challenges of trust and safety in the tech industry. 
Brian also talks about the importance of pivoting in one's career and the trade-offs involved. He discusses the future of the tech industry, including the impact of AI and the role of regulation in trust and safety. The conversation covers various topics related to content moderation, media coverage, and the role of technology in society. 
The main themes include the challenges of content moderation, the difficulty of making decisions in the face of complex issues, the role of the media in shaping narratives, and the need for a more comprehensive understanding of technology's impact. The conversation also touches on the importance of capturing the wider ecosystem of communication platforms and actors involved in events like January 6th. 
We also discuss the potential for storytelling to shed light on the challenges of trust and safety in the tech industry.
Takeaways
* Brian Fishman has a background in studying terrorism and has worked on trust and safety issues at Facebook.
* The early days of using the internet for research on terrorist organizations provided valuable insights.
* Pivoting in one's career requires a mix of audacity and humility.
* The tech industry is facing challenges related to AI, synthetic content, and trust in institutions.
* Regulation will raise the floor for trust and safety expectations but may lower the ceiling. Content moderation is a complex and challenging task, regardless of whether it is done by private companies or regulators.
* The difficulty of making decisions in the face of complex issues remains even when responsibility is transferred from private companies to regulators.
* Media coverage plays a significant role in shaping narratives and public understanding of events.
* A comprehensive understanding of technology's impact requires considering the wider ecosystem of communication platforms and actors involved.
* Storytelling can be a powerful tool to explore the challenges of trust and safety in the tech industry.
Links
* Trust and Safety Tycoon Game
* How much mouse poop should be allowed in cereal boxes (a thought exercise that pertains to content moderation that we discuss and David Karpf wrote a piece about).
Show Notes
* Introduction and Background
* Early Internet Research on Terrorism
* Pivoting in a Career
* Challenges and Opportunities in the Tech Industry
* The Role of Regulation in Trust and Safety
* The Challenges of Content Moderation
* The Difficulty of Decision-Making
* The Role of Media in Shaping Narratives
* Understanding the Wider Ecosystem of Communication Platforms
* Storytelling and the Challenges of Trust and Safety
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