More Perfect WNYC Studios

More than 30 years ago, a Native American man named Al Smith was fired for ingesting peyote at a religious ceremony. When his battle made it to the Supreme Court, the decision set off a thorny debate over when religious people get to sidestep the law — a debate we’re still having today.

Voices in the episode include:

• Garrett Epps — University of Oregon Law School professor

• Ka’ila Farrell-Smith — Al Smith’s daughter, visual artist

• Jane Farrell — Al Smith's widow, retired early childhood specialist

• Galen Black — Al Smith’s former coworker

• Steven C. Moore — senior staff attorney at the Native American Rights Fund

• Craig J. Dorsay — lawyer who argued Al Smith’s case before the Supreme Court

• Dan Mach — director of the ACLU Program on Freedom of Religion and Belief

Learn more:

• 1963: Sherbert v. Verner

• 1990: Employment Division, Department of Human Resources of Oregon v. Smith

• 2022: 303 Creative LLC v. Elenis

• "Peyote vs the State: Religious Freedom On Trial" by Garrett Epps

• Factsheet: Religious Freedom Restoration Act Of 1993, The Bridge Initiative at Georgetown University

• Our History, the Klamath Tribes 

Supreme Court archival audio comes from Oyez®, a free law project by Justia and the Legal Information Institute of Cornell Law School.

Support for More Perfect is provided in part by The Smart Family Fund.

Follow us on Instagram and Facebook @moreperfectpodcast, and Twitter @moreperfect.

To many Americans, Clarence Thomas makes no sense. For more than 30 years on the Court, he seems to have been on a mission — to take away rights that benefit Black people. As a young man, though, Thomas listened to records of Malcolm X speeches on a loop and strongly identified with the tenets of Black Nationalism. This week on More Perfect, we dig into his writings and lectures, talk to scholars and confidants, and explore his past, all in an attempt to answer: what does Clarence Thomas think Clarence Thomas is doing?

Voices in the episode include:

• Juan Williams — Senior Political Analyst at Fox News

• Corey Robin — Professor of Political Science at Brooklyn College and the CUNY Graduate Center

• Angela Onwuachi-Willig — Dean of Boston University School of Law

• Stephen F. Smith — Notre Dame Law School professor

Learn more:

• 1993: Graham v. Collins

• 1994: Holder v. Hall

• 1999: Chicago v. Morales

• 2003: Grutter v. Bollinger

• 2022: Students for Fair Admissions v. President and Fellows of Harvard College

• 2022: Students for Fair Admissions v. University of North Carolina

• “The Enigma of Clarence Thomas” by Corey Robin

• “Black Conservatives, Center Stage” by Juan Williams

• “Just Another Brother on the SCT?: What Justice Clarence Thomas Teaches Us About the Influence of Racial Identity” by Angela Onwuachi-Willig

• “Clarence X?: The Black Nationalist Behind Justice Thomas's Constitutionalism” by Stephen F. Smith

• “My Grandfather’s Son” by Justice Clarence Thomas

Supreme Court archival audio comes from Oyez®, a free law project by Justia and the Legal Information Institute of Cornell Law School.

Support for More Perfect is provided in part by The Smart Family Fund.

Follow us on Instagram and Facebook @moreperfectpodcast, and Twitter @moreperfect.

Unlike other branches of government, the Supreme Court operates with almost no oversight. No cameras are allowed in the courtroom, no binding code of ethics, and records of their activities are incredibly hard to get. So how do reporters uncover the activities of the nine most powerful judges in the country?

Live from the Logan Symposium on Investigative Reporting at UC Berkeley’s Graduate School of Journalism, host Julia Longoria talks to journalists behind bombshell investigations of the Court and its justices and how Clarence Thomas’ personal relationships intersect with his professional life.

Voices in the episode include:

• Jo Becker — New York Times reporter in the investigative unit

• Justin Elliott — ProPublica reporter

Learn more:

• "The Long Crusade of Clarence and Ginni Thomas" by Danny Hakim and Jo Becker

• "Clarence Thomas and the Billionaire" by Joshua Kaplan, Justin Elliott and Alex Mierjeski

• "Billionaire Harlan Crow bought property from Clarence Thomas. The Justice didn’t disclose the deal" by by Justin Elliott, Joshua Kaplan and Alex Mierjeski 

Supreme Court archival audio comes from Oyez®, a free law project by Justia and the Legal Information Institute of Cornell Law School.

Support for More Perfect is provided in part by The Smart Family Fund.

Follow us on Instagram and Facebook @moreperfectpodcast, and Twitter @moreperfect.

This week, we revisit one of the most important Supreme Court cases you’ve probably never heard of: Baker v. Carr, a redistricting case from the 1960s, which challenged the justices to consider what might happen if they stepped into the world of electoral politics. It’s a case so stressful that it pushed one justice to a nervous breakdown, put another justice in the hospital, brought a boiling feud to a head, and changed the course of the Supreme Court — and the nation — forever.

Voices in the episode include:

• Tara Grove — More Perfect legal advisor, University of Texas at Austin law professor

• Guy-Uriel Charles — Harvard law professor

• Louis Michael Seidman — Georgetown law school professor

• Sam Issacharoff — NYU law school professor

• Craig A. Smith — PennWest California humanities professor and Charles Whittaker's biographer

• J. Douglas Smith — Author of "On Democracy's Doorstep"

• Alan Kohn — Former Supreme Court clerk for Charles Whittaker (1957 term)

• Kent Whittaker — Charles Whittaker's son

• Kate Whittaker — Charles Whittaker's granddaughter

Learn more:

• 1962: Baker v. Carr

• 2000: Bush v. Gore

• 2016: Evenwel v. Abbott

Music in this episode by Gyan Riley, Alex Overington, David Herman, Tobin Low and Jad Abumrad.

 

Archival interviews with Justice William O. Douglas come from the Department of Rare Books and Special Collections at Princeton University Library.

Special thanks to Jerry Goldman and to Whittaker's clerks: Heywood Davis, Jerry Libin and James Adler.

Supreme Court archival audio comes from Oyez®, a free law project by Justia and the Legal Information Institute of Cornell Law School.

Support for More Perfect is provided in part by The Smart Family Fund.

Follow us on Instagram and Facebook @moreperfectpodcast, and Twitter @moreperfect.

To kick off the new season, host Julia Longoria returns to high school, where she first fell in love with the Supreme Court. She was a star on her high school’s nationally-ranked “Constitution team” (read: nerd Super Bowl). For Julia, the Court represented a place where two sides of an issue could be discussed and debated. A lot has changed since then — and public perception around the Court is polarized, to say the least. Which is why we’re taking a cue from high schoolers: this season on More Perfect, we’re questioning everything.

Learn more:

• The We the People, The Citizen, and the Constitution Program

Supreme Court archival audio comes from Oyez®, a free law project by Justia and the Legal Information Institute of Cornell Law School.

Support for More Perfect is provided in part by The Smart Family Fund.

Follow us on Instagram and Facebook @moreperfectpodcast, and Twitter @moreperfect.

This season, More Perfect is taking our camera lens off the Supreme Court and zooming in on the words of the people: the 27 amendments that We The People have made to our Constitution. We're taking on these 27 amendments both in song and in story. This episode is best listened to alongside 27: The Most Perfect Album, an entire album (an ALBUM!) and digital experience of original music and art inspired by the 27 Amendments. Think of these episodes as the audio liner notes.

Let's get started. If we're talking about the Amendments to the U.S. Constitution, it only feels right to start at the beginning. The First and Second Amendments are arguably the most ferociously contentious amendments of them all, and the Third Amendment is the underdog that everyone underestimates but (maybe) shouldn’t.

With that in mind, Episode One dives into the poetic dream behind the First Amendment. This is the amendment that reflects the kind of country the Founding Fathers hoped we would be. Next, we examine the fiercely debated words of the Second Amendment, words that often feel like they divide our nation in two. And finally, we question whether the seemingly irrelevant Third Amendment might actually be the key to figuring out where our country is going.

And when you're done with the episode, take a listen to the songs by Joey Stylez, Cherry Glazerr, Sateen, Flor de Toloache, Michael Richard Klics, Palehound, and They Might be Giants inspired by Amendments 1, 2 and 3 on 27: The Most Perfect Album.