Plato's Pod: Dialogues on the works of Plato James Myers

Our coverage of Plato’s longest dialogue, The Laws, continues with a discussion on Book II, building on the connection of virtue and happiness that was emphasized in Book I. As the Athenian, Cretan, and Spartan proceed in considering the ideal framework for a constitution, the theme of harmony in the soul and in the community is central to Book II. How are children to be educated, to instill in them a sense of virtue and to find happiness in its pursuit? When members of the Toronto, Calgary, and Chicago Philosophy Meetup groups convened on March 24, 2024, questions were raised about a perceived elitism in Plato and whether his educational approach is a form of indoctrination, any more than modern education might be considered as such. In any event, some form of understanding is required to find virtue in the “general concord of reason and emotion,” and Book II focuses on learning to judge the consequences of pleasure and pain that motivate human behaviour. We’ll follow in our next episode with Book III, beginning where Book II ends highlighting the importance of correctly determining proportions and fidelity in representations.

If the constitution for Crete’s new colony, Magnesia, is to succeed in setting the conditions for virtue among its citizens, self control and courage will be required to conquer the pains but equally the pleasures that visit every human life. This is the conclusion of the Athenian, Clinias, and Megillus in the second part of Book I of Plato’s dialogue The Laws, which highlights the benefits of harmony to a society that equips citizens both to govern and to be governed. Members of the Toronto, Calgary, and Chicago Philosophy Meetup groups met on March 3, 2024 to explore these themes and consider parallels to modern social issues, when virtue is now seldom equated with happiness as it was when the U.S. Constitution was framed some 2,100 years after Plato’s writing.  And what of the Athenian’s encouragement for citizens to engage in drinking parties as a test of virtue and self control? It’s both a curious and amusing feature of Book I that we’ll pursue when we read Book II of The Laws in our next meeting, rescheduled to March 24.

Plato’s Pod began discussing Book I of Plato’s longest dialogue, the Laws, which advances the argument for the constitution of Crete’s new colony to cultivate the virtue of its citizens. It’s unlike the war-focussed constitution of Crete itself, represented in the discussion by the character Clinias, and the laws of Sparta whose spokesman is Megillus, but together with the unnamed Athenian they agree that a society of virtuous citizens will be peaceful and enduring.
On February 18, 2024, members of the Toronto, Calgary, and Chicago Philosophy Meetup groups turned to the dialogue’s beginning armed with knowledge of Book X, which opened our extended series on the Laws by exploring Plato’s presentation of the universe as having a soul and, at its core, the supremacy of Reason. Everything comes to be from a cause and Reason and, in Book I, virtue is presented as the reason for a peaceful and just society.
Is there a lesson for the world now, 2,400 years after Plato wrote the Laws, in the pursuit of collective virtue as a higher good than the quest for individual freedom?  Would a focus on virtue replace the present discord with harmony? Our discussion covered many of the practical considerations including security and protection of material possessions, the problems of measuring cause and effect over time, and the benefit of citizens who (in the words of the Athenian) know both “how to rule and be ruled as justice demands.” Such skill requires self control, a subject we’ll discuss in our next episode when we will cover the second half of Book I of the Laws.

Plato's Pod continues its series on Plato's longest work, The Laws, picking up where we left off two weeks ago with the second part of Book X, near the end of the dialogue. In Book X, the three characters - an unnamed Athenian speaking with Clinias (from Crete) and Megillus (from Sparta) - set out the logic for reason as the primary cause of the universe, and reason's central function in the soul's moderation of need and desire. But have the three gone too far in prescribing the death penalty for any citizen of Crete's new colony, Magnesia, who refuses after every attempt at explanation and reconciliation to acknowledge reason as a god? On February 4, 2024, members of the Toronto, Calgary, and Chicago Philosophy Meetup groups met to consider the arguments. Is it just to impose reason in the form of a "state religion," one participant asked, or have the Athenian, Clinias, and Megillus adequately established that reason is no longer a matter of belief but a matter of fact? How do they define "impiety," for which death is the ultimate penalty, and is it fair to see it as a disease and demand that non-believers justify themselves? Some fascinating perspectives were offered in our discussion on the very different view of the universe and soul that is presented in Book X, which we will revisit when we turn to the beginning of The Laws in our next episode.

On January 21, 2024, Plato's Pod began its extended series on Plato's longest and perhaps most enigmatic and impenetrable dialogue, The Laws, which is said to have been his final work. Members of the Toronto, Calgary, and Chicago Philosophy Meetup groups began by discussing Book X, near the end of the dialogue, which features Plato's cosmology. The immaterial soul, says the unnamed Athenian speaking with a Cretan and Spartan, is the oldest thing in the universe, older than material physical matter and therefore the primary cause of all motion. Our discussion ranged from Plato's definition of "god" and the soul's power of persuasion, to the basis of the soul's laws. Are the laws rooted in universal nature, or in the time-bound variability of convention? Many fascinating points were raised, setting the stage for the second half of Book X in our next episode.

Plato brought the legend of Atlantis to the world in the Timaeus, and in the Critias provided many details of the fabulously wealthy and technologically advanced society that fell into disharmony and disappeared in a great earthquake 9,000 years earlier. As the character Critias relates the story, over time the Atlanteans gradually forgot their divine origin from the god Poseidon and began to pursue material wealth, losing their harmony and bringing upon themselves the punishment of Zeus. On December 3, 2023, members of the Toronto, Calgary, and Chicago Philosophy Meetup groups addressed the curious ending of the tale told by the character Critias, just as he was about to quote the words of Zeus. Was this cliff-hanger, “and he said …” a theatrical device of Plato, or a case of lost writing, or was Plato telling us that no human can know the mind of a god? The theme of memory plays throughout the dialogue, and Critias says that memory is particularly difficult when opinion applies in representing human actions over time. Was the ancient story that Critias relates a warning to the Athenians of his time about social constitutions like those of Atlantis that become too rigidly rooted in the past, and are there warnings in it for our time? The mystery of Atlantis has endured for 2,400 years since Plato’s writing, and in our discussion we may have found some clues to understanding the lessons of Atlantean history.