Real Talk: Cuddle Caution - Student's Guide to Consent & Boundaries

Students sometimes enjoy cuddling, but innocent acts can sometimes lead to serious Title IX cases. These situations are more common than you might expect. Join Susan and Kristina in this episode of Real Talk as they discuss common pitfalls, focusing on important aspects like communication, conversation, and consent. Tune in for essential insights, and be sure to share this information with your students.

LINKS MENTIONED IN THE SHOW:

https://studentdefense.kjk.com/

TRANSCRIPT:

Susan Stone:

Welcome back to Real Talk with Susan Stone and Kristina Supler. We are full time moms and attorneys bringing our student defense legal practice to life with real candid conversations.

Susan Stone:

Nice to see you on this dreary, rainy day. 

Kristina Supler:

Indeed, it is. 

Susan Stone:

It is. Well, we're going to talk about something that's actually good to do on a rainy day. 

Kristina Supler:

Ooh, tell me more. What could that be? 

Susan Stone:

Cuddling. 

Kristina Supler:

Who doesn't love cuddling? 

Susan Stone:

My gosh. You know what? I'm mourning the fact that my youngest is about to go to college.

And we talked about this on prior podcasts, but do you remember we used to have younger kids. But back in the day. 

Kristina Supler:

My kids love to CUDDLE Yeah, 

Susan Stone:

There's nothing like that. Cuddling up a little kid, especially on a rainy morning.

Susan Stone:

Couldn't agree more.

Susan Stone:

I love it. 

Kristina Supler:

Well, why are you talking about cuddling today, Susan? Do I go with this?

Susan Stone:

Well, we're going to get there because, as you know, nobody sees us and things until something goes wrong. And what is that saying? Everything's fine till somebody gets poked in the eye. Do you remember that thing? 

Kristina Supler:

Yes. 

Susan Stone:

Well, we're going to talk about cuddling going wrong. But first, let's just talk about why do we cuddle? I mean, I was doing a little research on cuddling and did you know that cuddling produces oxytocin and basically makes you feel good and safe?

Kristina Supler:

Well, that's interesting because I suppose and you know, you're the special ed wiz, if you will, is it could one argue that cuddling is kind of like a form of O.T. in a way, occupational therapy or stimulating you in some way? 

Susan Stone:

Well, we know it improves sleep. There are some studies out there that says it actually boosts the immune system and it, believe it or not, lowers blood pressure.

That's crazy, isn't it? 

Kristina Supler:

Now that I didn't see that one coming, I'm just thinking about like some of our little kids and people with sensitivities to touch and touch can be a good thing. And also maybe something that can be triggering. 

Susan Stone:

Yeah, exactly. Well, I would say that in early childhood, cuddling definitely leads to attachment parenting. You really form bonds.

Kristina Supler:

Well, that like when you first have your baby and they want to put the baby on your chest for the. What does that kangaroo care? What was it called?

Susan Stone:

 I think it's kangaroo care. It's been a minute

Kristina Supler:

and they have had a baby. 

Susan Stone:

Yeah, but I think your point is well taken that some children actually are averse to touch, you know, like that feeling. But most people do. And a little simple hug or cuddle is wonderful for parents. And I'm a big fan of parents being physically affectionate with children. But.

Kristina Supler:

but there's always a but 

Susan Stone:

but we're not here to talk about parents snuggling their babies, 

Kristina Supler:

I think as part of our podcast. It's funny, every episode there's sort of a theme of, in reality, things that are nice. Most of the time innocent sure and then put them on a college campus and the title nine world. And of course, there's always room for things to go wrong. So are we talking about cuddling in the context of Title Nine today? 

Susan Stone:

We are. Because one person's innocent, platonic, asexual cuddling can be another person's prelude to a hookup.

Kristina Supler:

Indeed, indeed. And that actually makes me think we've had over the years we've had quite a few cases that are sort of rooted in, I don't know, cuddling going wrong, if you will, though I think it probably depends on who you ask. Right?

Susan Stone:

Well, I just learned that there is a definitional difference between cuddling and snuggling. 

Kristina Supler:

Now this is totally new to me.Tell me more. I'm very interested. 

Susan Stone:

Okay. I read by Rabbi Google. You know, the go to source of all things. 

Kristina Supler:

When you're done, I'm going to tell you something that I just came across on Rabbi Google. 

Susan Stone:

Okay, good. So cuddling his arms around someone and snuggling is rubbing up and wiggling against a person. 

Kristina Supler:

Okay, that makes sense.

Susan Stone:

It does?

Kristina Supler:

Yeah. 

Susan Stone:

How do you think it makes sense? Supler 

Kristina Supler:

Because snuggling. It makes me think about, like, getting cozy and, like, under a blanket. And you're sort of, I don't know, inching up and just, like, being warm. And as I'm saying this, I'm realizing I don't even I don't know, it just makes sense to me that one's different.

Susan Stone:

Well, so maybe we're not here really to talk about cuddling. Maybe we're here to talk about snuggling when that goes wrong, 

Kristina Supler:

Perhaps. But you reminded me, actually, not too long ago, I saw this headline about how in Manhattan, because of course, you can find anything in Manhattan, there are actually 

Susan Stone:

I love the Big Apple 

Kristina Supler:

professional cuddling services where people charge $150 an hour to cuddle in a platonic way because people are seeking out like that touch therapy thing.

Which made me think of the OT question I asked you earlier. How about that though? Truly, anything you want can be found in New York. 

Susan Stone:

It can be. But let's go back. And that's interesting. It may be kind of creepy. I don't know how I feel about it, but let's go back to college, because in college there are people who like to have what they call cuddle buddies.

Kristina Supler:

Sure. And I think that from the perspective of Title nine, how can things go wrong? I mean, it's really in essence, any sort of touching or physical contact, if it's unwelcome, could perhaps give rise to a claim for sexual harassment.

Susan Stone:

So let's set the stage for our listeners. It's late. You've already gone out. The bars have closed.So it's what, 2 a.m. 

Kristina Supler:

sure. I guess it depends what state you're in, but I think two AMs a reasonable time. 

Susan Stone:

Okay. And you know, nothing good happens at 2 a.m.. 

Kristina Supler:

Nothing. 

Susan Stone:

Nothing. So it's 2 a.m. and you decide to watch a little Netflix and chill for your evening out. Maybe you've had a beer or two or ten and you decide to cuddle and accidentally you might even fall asleep and or not. And the cuddling to one person, they're tired. They want to go to sleep, but to the other person they get aroused, duu duu dun

Kristina Supler:

Sure. I mean, I think one could argue that that is a natural consequence of cuddling 

Susan Stone:

and a hand might wander. 

Kristina Supler:

It's possible, 

Susan Stone:

and a hand might wander without consent. 

Kristina Supler:

Indeed. 

Susan Stone:

And there's your title nine. 

Kristina Supler:

Yeah. I mean, the whole at the heart of the Title nine analysis was the issue of unwelcomeness. And then also, you know, a conversation. It makes me think Conversations we often have with our students of any age is sort of impact versus intent, you know? But I didn't mean for anything, you know, to be upsetting or offensive, but it was received that way by someone else. And so what do you do with that? And that's really, in essence, what all of our Title nine cases are about, cause I don't think anyone ever says, I intentionally did X, Y, Z to hurt someone. It's always I didn't mean to or something was misunderstood or misconstrued. And then you have the, you know, the consequences of whatever the circumstance was.

And that's often what we're navigating through is sort of the the gray. 

Susan Stone:

Well, because the definition of content send can be words or actions. And so what is an action? I thought we were cuddling. I thought we were getting closer. I thought you also were romantically interested in me. And so I thought it was a natural move on my part to move my hand.

And the other person's thinking, wait, you didn't even talk to me? But that's not the definition of consent. It's words or actions. And I think that's where the confusion comes from. 

Kristina Supler:

Well, and I'm going to say this, that, you know, sort of a prevailing viewpoint might be that, well, come on, please. Everyone knows that cuddling is just sort of a gateway to a hookup.

How would you respond to that? 

Susan Stone:

I don't even think that's true because as we starte