The Church Lobby Karl Vaters

What happens when a pastor sets out, not to minister to people who look like him, but to purposely reach people who look as different from his current congregation as possible?
That’s what Dave Gibbons, the founding pastor of Newsong Church in Orange County, CA did. In this episode, Karl Vaters talks with him about the planting of Newsong, the challenges Dave faced when he decided to guide them to look more like the diverse county they were ministering in.
Dave talks honestly and vulnerably about how the Holy Spirit challenged him to reach out to the misfits and the marginalized. This challenged him and the church in huge ways, including a massive drop in attendance that he had to find his way through emotionally, financially, and spiritually.
 
Karl's new book, De-Sizing the Church: How Church Growth Became a Science, Then an Obsession, and What's Next is now available wherever you buy books, either electronically or in print. If you’ve read the book and you’d like Karl to speak to your group about the issues he raises in it, reach out at KarlVaters.com/contactme.
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Meritocracy has become embedded in the American church. In this conversation, Karl Vaters talks with Scot McKnight about why this is dangerous, how to notice the warning signs of a toxic church culture, the problems with being or following a narcissistic leader, and more.
Scot McKnight is the co-author (with Laura Barringer) of A Church Called Tov: Forming a Goodness Culture That Resists Abuses of Power and Promotes Healing.

Karl's new book, De-Sizing the Church: How Church Growth Became a Science, Then an Obsession, and What's Next is now available wherever you buy books, either electronically or in print. If you’ve read the book and you’d like Karl to speak to your group about the issues he raises in it, reach out at KarlVaters.com/contactme.
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Karl Vaters interviews Bob Smietana, a columnist for Religion News Service, and the author of Reorganized Religion: The Reshaping of the American Church and Why it Matters.
Bob and Karl discuss some of unintended consequences of the Church Growth Movement from Bob's unique vantage point. They also delve into the dangers of bigness and what we can do about it.
Then they discuss Smietana’s fascinating article, “There’s a Reason Every Hit Worship Song Sounds the Same,” and what it says about the current church culture.

Links

Reorganized Religion: The Reshaping of the American Church and Why it Matters

Religion News Service

There’s a Reason Every Hit Worship Song Sounds the Same


Karl's new book, De-Sizing the Church: How Church Growth Became a Science, Then an Obsession, and What's Next is now available wherever you buy books, either electronically or in print. If you’ve read the book and you’d like me to speak to your group about the issues I raise in it, reach out to me at KarlVaters.com/contactme.
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

If small church pastors have a modern patron saint, Eugene Peterson might be it.
In this episode, Karl Vaters talks with Peterson’s biographer, Winn Collier about the places where Winn’s book, A Burning in My Bones: The Authorized Biography of Eugene H. Peterson, Translator of The Message, overlaps with Karl's book, De-sizing the Church.
They talk about how Winn was entrusted to write Peterson’s authorized bio, why people (especially pastors) are still so fascinated by Peterson’s writings, his life, and the way he pastored. Then they narrow in on how Peterson accurately, but fairly critiqued the church growth movement and our obsession with bigness.
Finally, they address several parts of Peterson’s life and ministry that didn’t fit into De-sizing the Church, including:

How Peterson’s life connected with people even deeper than his writings did

The importance of pastoral presence

How Peterson pushed back against our size obsession and the institutionalism of a business-centered approach to church growth

The importance of those inefficient hours in a pastor’s life and schedule

And more


Links:

A Burning in My Bones: The Authorized Biography of Eugene H. Peterson, Translator of The Message

Working the Angles: The Shape of Pastoral Integrity


Karl's new book, De-sizing the Church: How Church Growth Became a Science, Then an Obsession, and What's Next, is now available wherever you buy books, either electronically or in print. If you’ve read the book and you’d like Karl to speak to your group about the issues he raises in it, reach out at KarlVaters.com/Contact Me.
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

One of the biggest dangers of our obsession with church size is the rise of the Christian celebrity culture. Katelyn Beaty is the author of Celebrities for Jesus: How Personas, Platforms, and Profits Are Hurting the Church.
Katelyn defines celebrity as “social power without proximity.” In this conversation, Karl Vaters talks with Katelyn about what that means, why it’s a problem, and why we in the church are so susceptible to the lure of celebrity.
There’s also great hope for those who have been led astray by Christian celebrity culture, whether you’re the one following a celebrity, or if you’re the one desiring to be followed.

Links:
Celebrities for Jesus: How Personas, Platforms, and Profits Are Hurting the Church
Karl's new book, De-sizing the Church: How Church Growth Became a Science, Then an Obsession, and What's Next, is now available wherever you buy books, either electronically or in print. If you’ve read the book and you’d like Karl to speak to your group about the issues he raises in it, reach out at KarlVaters.com/Contact Me.
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

We have an unhealthy relationship with bigness in the church. Especially in the American church. And it’s killing us. The rate of church closures, departing members, and pastoral burnout is growing exponentially.
This is the first episode of a series of podcasts based on Karl Vaters’ new book, De-Sizing the Church: How Church Growth Became a Science, Then an Obsession, and What's Next. Karl talks about how we became so obsessed with bigness in the church, why it’s dangerous, and what we can do to change course.
Look for upcoming De-sizing the Church episodes in which Karl interviews Katelyn Beaty, Scot McKnight, Winn Collier, and more.
Karl's new book, De-sizing the Church: How Church Growth Became a Science, Then an Obsession, and What's Next, is now available wherever you buy books, either electronically or in print. If you’ve read the book and you’d like Karl to speak to your group about the issues he raises in it, reach out at KarlVaters.com/Contact Me.
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices