Those Who Can't Teach Anymore

Charles Fournier
Those Who Can't Teach Anymore

"Those Who Can’t Teach Anymore" is an Ambie Nominated, Award-Winning, 7-part podcast series exploring why teachers are leaving education and what can be done to stop the exodus.

Season 1

  1. EPISODE 1

    Fight, Flight, or Apathy

    We are witnessing a mass exodus of teachers from education. My wife, Jennie, is one of those teachers that left. She, like many educators, was tired of not being treated like a professional. Even for me, a high school English teacher, the job is getting harder. So I go in search of answers. In this episode, we hear from Jennie and two other former teachers about why they left teaching. From struggles with mental health, to low pay, to a lack of autonomy in the classroom - they give insight into why we are losing good teachers across the country. Music:  Theme Song By Julian Saporiti “Worky Work” by Andy G. Cohen is licensed under a CC BY license. “Roost” by Andy G. Cohen is licensed under a CC BY license. “Take it Back” by Crowander is licensed under a  CC BY-NC license “Machinery” by eddy is licensed under a CC BY-NC license “So Far So Close” by Jahzzar is licensed under a CC BY-SA license. “Patriotic Songs of America” by the New York Military Band and the American Quartet is licensed under a CC BY-NC license “Another Rainy Day” by Scott Holmes Music is licensed under a CC  BY license. “Everest” by Scott Holmes Music is licensed under a CC  BY license   Transcript: I was a Junior in high school when my English teacher, Ms. Dianne Panazzo assigned us to write a paper that explored our backgrounds. I wrote about a neighborhood game of capture the flag. In the middle of our game, we came across a soft-top, convertible. It was parked in the lumber yard of the hardware store at the end of our block. Our pursuit of the flag came to a standstill to look at this car. We lived in a small town in western New York – a place of rusted trucks and economy vehicles. One of the boys that lived across the street from us always wore camo and did reconnaissance missions into his neighbor’s house. He was pretty sure the car belonged to a guy who was trying to shut down his dad’s business. With the logic of 10-year-olds, we felt a sense of duty to retaliate against any encroachment on locally owned, businesses so we stacked lumber and bags of concrete on the car. Then, my camo-wearing neighbor climbed onto the hood of the car and threw a cinderblock into the windshield. There was this cinematic pause, as we gathered our senses, and then we destroyed that car. Lumber and tree branches went through the windows, the soft top was punctured – more cinderblocks made pieces of the car – it was a mess. When we were done, we finished our game of capture the flag and went home at curfew. Later, 2 police officers visited our door, looking for the vandals. Lawlessness that my oldest brother assured them that we had nothing to do with. My essay explored how this story was a metaphor for rock and roll. I know, but it was high school – I was trying to be edgy and profound. My teacher, Ms. Panazzo, applauded my writing and had me walk across the hall to Mr. Wacker’s room. This was not because Wacker was more or less of an expert on writing or deviance. Panazzo sent students to Wacker as a way to celebrate and share writing. These were teachers who collaborated often, believed in the writing process, and took efforts to teach students how valuable their writing was. Sending a student to Wacker was a novel way to give kids a feeling of getting published. Wacker was on plan, crouched over a stack of papers, pen in hand, at his desk in the back of an empty, dimly-lit classroom. I had never interacted with him before. He had a reputation of being dynamic, kind, and willing to be outrageous – he’s the guy that put on a foam ten-gallon hat and had a stick horse race in front of the school at a pep-rally. To Wacker, shame was for suckers. I told him that Panazzo had sent me. He had me sit in a chair to the side of his desk so he could listen to me read my essay. I read and Wacker nodded, gasped, said, “uh-huh,” now and again – all of the things that I wanted to hear as a young writer. He handed me praise balanced with some advice and sent me back to class. I was impressed by how willing he was to listen to me, to inspire and encourage me. A kid that wasn’t his student, interrupting his planning time, to read an essay about young stupidity. That moment was pivotal in my desire to be a writer. And I’m not the only student that Panazzo sent to read to Wacker. My wife, Jennica – she goes by Jennie – had a similar experience. This is what made Wacker a great teacher and what inspires me in my teaching practice still. His willingness to take time for others, whether he knew them or not. But Wacker isn’t a teacher anymore. 15 years and over a thousand students after our first meeting, Wacker quit. He told me it was a  matter of life or death. This is Those Who Can’t Teach Anymore, a 7-part podcast series exploring why teachers are leaving education and what can be done to stop the exodus. My name is Charles Fournier. I am a high school English teacher. In the 10 years that I’ve been teaching, brilliant teachers have been leaving the profession, my wife included. And those numbers have only increased with Covid. So in order to root out why teachers are leaving and reflect on my own ambivalence towards teaching, I spent this summer traveling, researching, and interviewing teachers, parents, students, legislators, professors, and administrators to try to find out why good people are leaving education. This is a national problem. In February of 2022, the  National Education Association (NEA) reported that 55% of teachers are thinking about leaving the profession earlier than they had planned. And last spring, in my state of Wyoming, a University of Wyoming survey showed that 65% of surveyed Wyoming teachers would quit teaching if they could. Think of that…about two thirds of the teachers in your kids’ school right now want to leave. That’s an astonishing number. So I figured Wyoming would be a good place to start. If it’s bad here, a state that is seen as a haven for having some of the highest teacher salaries in the past decade, we know it’s bad. Maybe salaries aren’t the only thing causing teachers to leave. This podcast will explore the reasons teachers leave. We will look at how low pay, ignored mental health, lack of respect and autonomy, and mandated education policy influence teachers’ decisions to go. And how these things are not new…take a look at our education system’s history. We’ve talked about reforms for generations. Or think about how teachers are depicted in movies or in political debates. The images of martyrs or slobs also make an impact. Things have been accumulating for a while. And we could see this crisis a long way off. I have wanted to write this podcast since my wife left teaching. And then two more of my favorite colleagues left education just one after the other. So today, I will be starting close to home to find out why teachers are leaving. But before we begin, a quick warning, this episode discusses miscarriage, abuse, and suicide. If you or someone you know is struggling with thoughts of suicide, please call the national suicide hotline at 988. Here is part 1: “Fight, Flight, or Apathy” Jennica:   My first year was with you was a ton of fun. Jennie and I started teaching at the same school in a small agricultural town on the eastern border of Wyoming.  I taught English and she taught Chemistry and Biology. Jennica: Then you wanted to kind of get out of education for a little bit. So you went and got your Masters. I returned to school to get a Masters degree in Literature, and Jennie started teaching in a new district. She collaborated with the University in town, took kids on field trips into the community and had a wonderful time teaching. But after I earned my Masters, we moved again, and we got to teach together again in a new district.  This was what we’d talked about since our Freshman year in college – to teach in the same building together for the rest of our careers. And working together was amazing, but we didn’t realize the toll teaching was taking. Jennica: We had gotten pregnant. And we felt like, oh, gosh, like, we're gonna double down on this career. And we're going to be teachers till we retire. And that felt awful. I felt defeated. Thinking of teaching for another 25-30 years made us very aware that we were more dissatisfied with teaching than we thought. We liked the idea of having kids but now it felt like we were stuck in this career. Then in October, we had a miscarriage. Jennie told me that she felt something wrong in class while she was teaching. She eyed the door and waited for someone to pass her room, so she didn’t leave her students unattended. When a principal walked past, she asked him to cover her class, and she ran to the bathroom. Jennie said it was all so fast for her – it was almost a blur. And then she went back to teaching during the same class period in a fog. In another profession, it would have been easy to take the afternoon off, but here she would have had to plan for a sub, which included potentially explaining why she needed coverage on such short notice. She wasn’t prepared at that time to do this for such a personal and confusing experience. She said it was surreal for her to brush herself off, put on a smile, and keep on with her lesson. She wasn’t even completely sure if she had miscarried until it was confirmed that afternoon at the doctor’s office. There are no standard ways to grieve. We went to the mountains and talked and thought and cried and we tried to answer why such things happen. Jennie’s mom always tells us, “You know, everything happens for a reason.” So we were trying to find one. Jennica: It was sad to have our miscarriage but at the same time, it was like, well, the door’s open again, and leaving this career, is something that I've been thinking about for a little bit. And so it just solidified that

    42 min

  2. EPISODE 2

    Inheritance

    Many of the problems modern teachers are facing aren’t new, so we’re going back in time to find out how our education system became a system that teachers are currently fleeing. Come to find out, modern teachers inherited low pay, limited respect, and a system that strips communities of their cultural traditions. In this episode, hear how Indian Boarding Schools and the American Industrial Revolution have left traces on modern education, and how these traces are contributing to teachers’ decisions to leave education.   Music:  Theme Song By Julian Saporiti “Sonata No.13 in E Flat Major, Op. 24 No. 1-II. Allegro, Molto, e Vivace” by Daniel Veesey is in the Public Domain. “Railroad’s Whisky Co” by Jahzzar is Licensed under a CC BY-SA license. “Ugly Truth” by HoliznaCC0 is in the Public Domain. “Upsurge” by Jonah Dempcy is  a  CC BY-NC license. “Green Lights”  by Jahzzar is licensed under a CC BY-SA license. “Pizz” by Andrew Christopher Smith is licensed under a CC BY-NC-SA Transcript: I had a band teacher once hold me after class and force me eat a beef and bean burrito. He sat in front of me on the piano bench to make sure that I ate it. I was a freshman, in the middle of the high school wrestling season, and I was cutting weight for my first varsity tournament – where I’d end up getting my lips knocked off. My teacher, Mr. Duran, was short, wiry, wore jeans with a braided leather belt and a button-down shirt. He had round-framed glasses, combed his hair to the side, and more than once told me to listen to the greats like Chick Webb and not just the white guys that made it on the radio.  He was in his 30th year of teaching, and he was not shy about giving advice. While I ate the burrito, Duran talked about playing baseball in college and how abruptly a life of sports could come to an end but how long a life of music could last. This was mature guidance, albeit, guidance that I see more value in now than I did then. Duran would garnish each class with stories that worked to guide us towards being kind human beings. There were days in Jazz band where he would sit in the center of the tiered room, legs crossed, saxophone neck strap still on, and tell us about his past. When Mr. Duran was in college at the University of Northern Colorado in the 1960s, the Count Basie Orchestra went through town and stopped at the university. UNC was known for its jazz programs and one of Basie’s saxophone players dropped out and they needed a replacement. Count Basie was one of the most influential musicians from the Swing Era – he was like a swing minimalist. Duran jumped at the opportunity. He got to travel and play with the band and experience life as a musician – more specifically as a musician of color. One time he and a buddy from the orchestra went into a diner and were refused anything more than water. Duran was Mexican and his friend was Black, and it was the middle of the 1960s. In protest, they sat in the big window of the diner for 3 hours, sipping their water, putting themselves on display for anyone who walked by. I love that story – this man, my teacher, saw inequity and faced it with defiance. Duran’s lessons were eye-opening. I didn’t realize that those stories served as parables on ethics and kindness until I became a teacher and started telling stories of my own to serve the same ends. Duran used his history to help us become better humans. And isn’t that why we turn to history? Well, today, we’re going to take a lesson from Duran and examine the history of education in the U.S. And because the history of education is tremendous, we have to narrow it down. So we’ll focus on two aspects of history that set precedents for modern education, for the current system from which modern teachers are exiting.. We are going to start with Indian Boarding Schools, and then we’ll take a look at the American Industrial Revolution. This is Those Who Can’t Teach Anymore, a 7-part podcast series exploring why teachers are leaving education and what can be done to stop the exodus. I’m Charles Fournier. Here is part 2: “Inheritance” Caskey Russell:  I'm going crabbing this weekend. I own a boat with my brothers. And yeah, we go out and catch crab. And there'll be salmon season soon. So I kind of got back into the ocean style lifestyle. This is Caskey Russel. I got to catch up with him over a zoom call this summer. He is the Dean of Fairhaven College at Western Washington University. He grew up in Washington and is from the Tlingit tribe. I know Caskey because he taught for 17 years at the University of Wyoming, he was a dean of American Indian Studies, and he was my thesis chair and educational guide when I was at the university. Some of Caskey’s research for his PhD program dug into the history of Indian Education, specifically Indian boarding schools. Caskey Russell: My grandmother and her brothers, aunts and uncles, all went to Chemawa Indian School, in Salem. And it was a mixed bag. If you are asking yourself, wait, who’s this Caskey guy and what do Indian Boarding Schools have to do with teachers quitting? Here’s how. We know that historical atrocities leave a trace on modern institutions, so we need to recognize that Indian boarding schools have left their mark on modern education. They are a  part of the system of inequity modern teachers have inherited. Indian Boarding Schools are an example of the deculturalization that has occurred in education. One of many. Attempts to strip communities of their cultures happened with just about everyone in this country at some point that didn’t fit into the male, able-bodied, straight, white, Anglo Saxon Protestant category. Traces of these inequities remain in education, deculturalization still happens, and teachers working towards inclusion in a system that was based on exclusion often run into roadblocks – think book bans or accusations that teachers are trying to indoctrinate kids - and these roadblocks are pushing teachers out of education. So to better understand the inequities in modern education, this thing that is frustrating teachers to the point of quitting, we need to look at where some of those attempts at deculturalization originated. We need to look at Indian Boarding Schools. And we need to listen to someone like Caskey.  Caskey Russell: They liked the sports. They like some of the music, but my uncle Stanley Pradovic, I remember he said, “I used to dream of feasts, seafood feasts that they had in Alaska.” And  my grandmother was able to keep the Tlingit  language because she didn't go to boarding school, but her brothers did not.  You step back and look at the whole system and how destructive and just kind of the cultural genocide aspect. My grandmother would say she didn't know her brothers because when she was born, her brothers were gone away from her earliest memories. And so she didn't get to know her brothers right away. It did break families up. And I was just chatting with my mom last night. My mom said the other family had no control over what it was determined for them. And again, not having control over that seems to be the key to it, nor having input in the education nor valuing…and then having a different model, different cultural notion of success. And then the military and the Christianization, all that together, just adds problem on top of problem, instead of being empowering and enlightening, that really becomes conforming, sort of thing. What happened to Caskey’s family was a result of centuries of efforts to deculturalize tribes. Early European colonizers of the US  set a precedent of trying to assimilate tribes into a single monolithic culture. Colonizers disregarded tribal traditions and languages and failed to see that tribes already valued education for their youth. So the assumption that public education started with Horace Mann in 1837 is an assumption that values eurocentric education over the public education that was already in the Americas.  Part of this is because the purposes of education differed. Many Native communities saw educating children as a means to pass on generational knowledge and teach children how to be a successful part of the community. 17th-century Plymouth settlers specifically saw education and literacy as a method to keep Satan away. Children needed to be able to read so they could read the Bible. A pilgrim minister explained: “[There] is in all children, though no alike, a stubbornness, and stoutness of mind arising from natural pride, which must, in the first place, be broken and beaten down; that so the foundation of their education being laid in humility and tractableness, other virtues may, in their time, be built thereon” (42). But tribes did not beat down their children, did not read the Bible, and were able to survive and thrive in what Pilgrims saw as wilderness. So Pilgrims worked to impose their educational priorities onto tribes as a way to cast out Satan, and ultimately gain control of Indigenous people. This effort to assimilate and control only compounded over the next few centuries By the 19th century, congress was also making efforts to deculturalize and assimilate tribes. Thomas Jefferson who had a big role in the removal of Native Americans from their lands also had a One Nation idea when it came to Native Americans – an assumption that required assimilation through education. In 1816, Jefferson explained the value of education: “Enlighten the people generally and tyranny and oppressions of body and mind will vanish like evil spirits at the dawn of day. Although I do not, with some enthusiasts, believe that the human condition will ever advance to such a state of perfection as that there shall no longer be pain or vice in the world, yet I believe it susceptible of much improvement, and most of all in matters of government and religion; and that the diffusion o

    41 min

  3. EPISODE 3

    What Would Robin Williams Do?

    The most easily recognized teachers in our culture are on the big screen. So when we think about good teaching, it’s almost impossible not to think of Robin William’s character in Dead Poets Society standing on a desk and inspiring his students. This might be part of the problem. When teaching is associated with unrealistic Hollywood characters, it can create impractical or ridiculous assumptions about what teachers do. In this episode, we hear how the stereotypes of teachers may be contributing to teachers’ decisions to leave education. Music: Theme Song By Julian Saporiti “NPC Theme” by HoliznaCC0 is in the Public Domain. “Sunny Afternoon” by HoliznaCC0 is in the Public Domain.  “Infrastructure” by Scott Holmes Music is licensed under a  CC BY-NC license. “Just a Blip” by Andy G. Cohen is licensed under a CC  BY license. “Room With a View” by Jahzzar is licensed under a CC BY-SA license. Movie Clips: Freedom Writers (Paramount Pictures) Dead Poets Society (Touchstone Pictures, Walt Disney Studios Motion Pictures) School of Rock (Paramount Pictures) Ferris Bueller (Paramount Pictures, United International Pictures) Transcript:  Episode 3: “What Would Robin Williams Do?” There is a picture-day-esqu photo on my parents’ fridge of me sitting on my dad’s lap. I am wearing a tie-dye shirt and my orange hair is in its natural state of an Eddie Munster widows peak. My dad is in a blue button down and has on a tie. My cheeks crowd my eyes, my smile is so big. My dad, who doesn’t always smile for pictures, has a cheeky grin.    This picture was taken around the same time that my dad squatted down to eye-level with me and said: “When people ask you where you got your red hair, you tell them the milkman. Okay?”   He didn’t make a big deal about telling me this. It was just a directive, and I said okay. I figured, yeah, that makes sense.    So as adults would come by, ruffle my hair and say things like, “Oh my, what pretty red hair. Where did you get hair like that?”   I’d look up at them, smile, and tell them, “The Milkman.”    They would guffaw, cough down a drink, blush, and I’d try to explain, “You know, because he delivers things.”    And they’d laugh out an “I’m sure he does!” and find my dad who would have a grin settled between his bouncing shoulders as he muffled a laugh, and my mom would say something like “G-uh, Darcy Joe”   Not to be heavy handed, but the stereotypes of what a milkman may or may not do when visiting people’s homes is what makes the joke land. This joke was lost on me until high school. I didn’t understand the baggage associated with being a milkman.   Language matters. Words like milkman have connotations - they carry weight or have stereotypes attached to them. That’s why I can’t flip someone off and say, “Why are you upset,this means joy to me.” There are too many representations of middle-fingers that situate the digit as a symbol of the obscene. Repetition and representation give meaning.    The middle finger or terms like milkman or teacher, carry a history of expectations and stereotypes. Last episode we heard about the historical inheritance of teachers, which is significant in how we view modern teachers. But history isn’t the only thing that impacts how we view teachers. Today, we’re going to look at the teacher stereotypes in pop-culture and how these stereotypes can be contributing to teacher attrition. This is Those Who Can’t Teach Anymore, a 7-part podcast series exploring why teachers are leaving education and what can be done to stop the exodus. I’m Charles Fournier. Here is part 3: “What Would Robin Williams Do?” Molly Waterworth: I've gotten to the point where I see any TV show or movie where some sort of plot device hinges on the inspirational teacher. And I just roll my eyes.   This is Molly Waterworth. We heard from her last episode, and she just left education after teaching English for 8 years. She points out a stereotype of inspiring teachers in media: Molly Waterworth:I just can't.  I can't stomach it because it's so saccharin. It completely obscures the fact that these inspiring teachers that are either drawn from real life or the product of someone or someone's imagination, it completely obscures the fact that their inspirational teaching is very likely the outgrowth of massive mental health deficiencies. And like a complete imbalance of where they spend their time and where they're getting like their soul fed. Inspiring teacher stories make me feel awful.    That shouldn’t be the case, right? Inspirational teacher movies should INSPIRE. And they can and they do - they inspired me - but what Molly points to is a nagging reality in many inspirational teacher stories.    Dead Poets Society Clip   As you can hear in this scene from Dead Poets Society, Mr Keeting, played by Robin Williams, pushes his student, Todd Anderson.. And in this unconventional way Mr. Keeting helps Todd start to gain some confidence and see his potential. Similar scenes occur in other famous teacher movies, like Mr Holland’s Opus, or Freedom Writers.    These movies project a fantasy of heroism onto education, and people love it. Inspirational teacher movies are usually underdog stories: A  teacher rails against convention and inspires and does amazing things for others no matter the personal cost. We are attracted to this as a culture. We want heroes that are selfless. We want to see ourselves as capable of being like Robin Williams’ character in Dead Poets Society.  And the way these movie teachers influence kids…man, that’s the dream.  But, several if not most of the teachers in those stories that inspire don’t have the healthiest work-life balance. They give everything to their students - time, energy, love, inspiration. And these movie teachers inspire in the public comments like, “We need more teachers like this” or “I wish teachers would be more like (whatever movie teacher).” But we need to ask, what is expecting teachers to fit a stereotype asking of real teachers?   Think of Freedom Writers, a movie based on the real-life Erin Gruwell, who is played by Hillary Swank. She is the epitome of the inspirational teacher stereotype. Halfway through the movie, her husband leaves her because she is spending so much time focused on her students,  Freedom Writers Clip  The film creates a feeling that the husband might be unrealistic. As an audience, we’re rooting for Erin Gruwell because she does amazing things - her husband points this out. And don’t get me wrong, Ms.Gruwell is phenomenal and her story is amazing, but there might be danger in presenting this story as a precedent for what good teaching looks like. Yes, she is a good teacher, but at what cost? In most other films about different careers, it’s likely the main character would realize that work is taking too much and family is more important, but not in inspirational teacher movies. Expecting teachers to do what Gruwell does is expecting teachers to forfeit their own lives for students. It’s expecting martyrdom. This is a stereotype.   And the reality is different. Molly Waterworth: We're not martyrs, and we're not perfect. And there are things that can be said about the profession as a whole and certainly about individual teachers that needs improvement, absolutely. But I think a lot of it maybe stems from just this sense that teachers aren't entirely human - that we are saints. And so therefore, we shouldn't worry about all of these factors that are making our jobs harder, because we have this big calling on our lives that turn us somehow into people that don't have needs. This language that surrounds teaching is significant. It feeds the stereotype of selflessness, which in turn has an impact on how teachers are treated. Right now teachers are feeling burned out because this stereotype is unrealistic - it’s creating an expectation that makes teachers want to leave education.  I met up with Rachael Esh at Welcome Market Hall in Sheridan, Wyoming on the eve of her very last day as a teacher. Rachael Esh:  It's a bit of a stereotype with teachers. It’s like, Oh, this has been your calling since you were this age, or since this teacher impacted you. This idea of a calling is that you don’t teach for the money, you do it for the kids because it is what you were meant to do. It is your destiny or purpose. A quote unquote “calling” can create a sense of guilt in teachers when they realize, crap, I’m not getting paid enough for this, which is in contrast to the narrative surrounding  teaching like Molly points out: Molly Waterworth: People don't get into this for the money, why would they? But they're in it for the kids, and they're in it for that sense of purpose and mission. That's like, “Yeah, but I also would like to be paid.” So to have a calling is to feel like teaching is more than a job, more than a paycheck, it is a clear directive from some higher power for the direction your life should take in service of others. Rachael didn’t feel like that stereotype matched her experience. Rachael Esh: And I don't feel like that's usually the case. It's more of a roundabout zigzag pattern. This surprised me. I grew up wanting to be a teacher because, as Rachael said, I had some amazing teachers leave an impact on me, but I never thought teaching was my calling. It was something that sounded cool, and it was made cooler by movies like Dead Poets Society. I wrote the movie’s motto, “Carpe Diem” on all of my notebooks. And I liked reading and writing and teaching people, and teaching would give me a chance to coach. Not once did I get the sky part and shine a light on my career path. It wasn’t a calling, and of the 30 teachers that I interviewed, hardly any of them felt like teaching was thei

    41 min

  4. EPISODE 4

    Why Are We Here?

    What’s the purpose of education? If you were to ask 10 different people this question, you may get 10 different answers. Education shouldn’t be this complex, but getting people to come to a consensus on anything right now is a challenge. This can be a problem. If teachers are expected to meet ambiguous goals, it can lead to burnout and frustration.  In this episode, we hear how conflicting values in education may be contributing to teachers’ decisions to leave.   Music:  Theme Song By Julian Saporiti  “Your Paradigm Dial” by Origami Repetika is licensed under a CC  BY license.   “Room With a View” by Jahzzar is licensed under a CC BY-SA license.  “Business Getaway  ” by Scott Holmes Music is licensed under a  CC BY-NC license. “I Was Different” by Ov Moi Omm is licensed under a CC  BY license.   “Sunny Afternoon” by HoliznaCC0 is in the Public Domain. Transcript: In the spring of 2016, Julian Saporiti, the guy that made the theme song for this podcast, asked me if I wanted to help him teach a summer road trip class for the University of Wyoming. It was easy to say yes, and this class ended up being one of the most influential educational experiences that I’ve ever had.  Many of our students felt the same way. One of them, Sam Mallory, even talked about it in his graduation speech.  Sam Mallory: Two years ago about this time of year, I was officially enrolled in the most influential course in my college experience And what made this class so significant likely had to do with the fact that we valued experience over product, which is a pretty non-traditional approach to a college course.. Our Syllabus included the following:  Introductions: Julian Saporiti -  Instructor /Guitarist. Charles Fournier Advisor/ Contemplation Mentor Books: Jack Kerouak’s On The Road and John Steinbeck’s Travels with Charlie Music: Songs and lyrics for sing-alongs Assignments: This list included items like helping a stranger, keeping a journal, and dancing in the moonlight Safety Measures: Information about bear country, how to react if lost, and how to create a cross-draft in your vehicle to fart rather than holding it in and risking feeling sick  Traveling Recommendations for Women: A list focused on hygiene and affirmations created by wife, Jennie, who is a brilliant traveler but opted to stay home to plan for classes and manage our new ornery dog Lastly: “Be Amazed. Be Present.” We set out for two weeks across Wyoming, Idaho, and Montana. We danced to music by firelight in the Tetons under the Milky Way. I taught a pair of girls how to build a fire and when they asked what I thought about feminism, we read parts of The Vagina Monologues while lighting things on fire- one of those girls just wrote an award-winning screenplay. We observed the wildlife of national parks and saw some animals as well.  I love this model for education. A kind of structure of non-structure that gives students a chance to grow autonomy and learn on the go. It was an experience, and the students were, if not changed, greatly impacted by that course. Julian and I were too.  I tried to apply some of the elements of this course to my high school classes the next school year. I wanted kids to sit around a fire and have conversations, to worry less about grades or tests, and to focus on collaborative experiences that result in knowledge acquisition.  Then the school year started. My fire pit idea was struck down, and the weight of standardized assessments, and everything else settled into place. My idealism was smothered by bureaucratic reality. There’s nothing quite like having your grand plan for the new school year get deflated by October. And this brings me to a question that I have continuously returned to as a teacher when this happens - What’s the point of education? Why are we here? The answer is ambiguous, and that uncertainty has led to conflict and confusion in education. So on the show today, we will ask “What’s the purpose of education?” Because if we can’t come to a consensus, teachers will continue to be expected to meet all of the competing thoughts about for what education is for. This is frustrating and adds to the stress and burnout that is leading teachers to find careers that might have more clearly defined parameters.  This is Those Who Can’t Teach Anymore, a 7-part podcast series exploring why teachers are leaving education and what can be done to stop the exodus. I’m Charles Fournier. Here is part 4: “Why Are We Here?” Why we educate kids seems like it should be an easily answered question. But in my conversations with all levels of people involved in and around education, there wasn’t a clear consistent answer:  Gary Martin:We have to work on their cognitive skills, you know, the critical thinking. Christy Chadwick: I think we have this idea that the purpose of education is to raise the next generation. But now, it sort of feels like a control factor. It feels like we're just controlling society through education.   Caskey Russell: Fostering creativity in the students, critical thinking, removing kind of cultural blind spots, providing kind of an equal access all across the board, regardless of class race, getting an idea of community, American community as the kind of multicultural tapestry. Lindsey Freeman: I mean, that's a big part of it is workforce development. But just citizens, I mean, our government or politicians, like everything that our world needs to continue starts in the classroom.  Jaye Wacker: Oh, my gosh, to protect a democratic republic. You know, pure and simple. We have to be educated, we have to be able to see through the bullshit, you know.  Jennica Fournier: I thought my role was to teach students about chemistry and biology. But I think sometimes there's the expectation that you're babysitting them. or that you're keeping them safe.  Shane Atkinson: I really tried to make it about the human connection.  Elizabeth Smith: The purpose of education is to train our people to be worker bees, and to have the skills necessary to devote their entire lives towards the betterment of a few elite versus the greater good of all.  It’s a lot, and that can be a problem. And there is a split between the ideal for what education is for and the reality that often stifles idealism. What we do know is that an educational system is inherently political because it reflects a country’s values. But what is valued in the US is continuously evolving and hard to pin down.  Education started in the Americas as a way to teach kids how to be a part of their community. Then it started to shift with colonization. Education went from being morality focused - teaching literacy so that people could read the Bible. To Democracy and assimilation focused - forcing people to fit a standard ideal while emphasizing being an active citizen. To worker focused - creating industrialized systems to set people up to enter the workforce. To academic and standards focused - standardizing curriculum with the intent to compete on the global scale.  But now, as demonstrated by the crazy political climate, what we value as a country is unclear, so what education should look like is also unclear.   This lack of clarity is landing at the feet of teachers. And having a job with no clear and agreed upon objective is frustrating. Should teachers be focused on standardized tests, on learning, on mental health, on social health, on morality, on graduation rates? It’s not clear. But what is clear, is that having more of a shared value system would be valuable. A shared vision of what education is for. This would give teachers a clear objective that does not leave room for the petty arguments that are at the heart of so many educational dilemmas that are driving teachers out.  I think we can get there. I spoke with people from all over the political spectrum for this podcast, and I am certain that we can get to a shared set of values.   Juan Laden: Fundamentally, we need to make available within our teaching environment the understanding of other people and the possibilities for children to do so many things. Juan Laden sat down with me at the Lander Bake Shop. I had set up a microphone and taped up a sign with two questions: Why are teachers leaving Education? And What is the Purpose of Education? Because I don’t want to hassle folks, I sat quietly with my dirty chai and waited for people to come to me. Juan sidled over in a dutch cap, still chewing on a pastry, and starting answering questions before he even sat down.  Juan Laden: I think they're good teachers, and that's why they're leaving. And so that's, are you recording this? Good, good? Juan is a lot of things. He has never been a public school teacher, but he was an experiential climbing instructor for the National Outdoor Leadership School or NOLS, he has traveled around and lived in Europe, he is knowledgeable in many things including plumbing and photography, and he knows a lot about pedagogy, this is a word educators use to talk about the method or practice of teaching: Juan Laden: And basically, I think the concept in America of education is filling a receptacle, and that is not what it's about.  What Juan is referring to is also called the banking method - the idea is that a student’s educational experience is to get packed full of information, and that’s it. The banking method is not a popular pedagogy because it lacks a need for critical thinking and creativity and disregards the fact that students come to school already possessing knowledge. Many folks I spoke with push against this focus of education - to pack kids full of information. Juan agrees, and he explained that he thinks education should feel more like caving.  Juan Laden:  I'm a caver and talk about exploration. Most people don't like the idea of caving. I tell them

    42 min

  5. EPISODE 5

    Education has a Tourist Problem

    Imagine that you are hiring a new English teacher. None of the people who apply have any of the qualifications to teach English. No teaching degree. No English degree. No experience in the classroom. Would you hire any of them? Probably not. Now here is the irony. Many of the people making curricular and legislative decisions about education don’t have the qualifications to be hired within education. This is a problem. In this episode, we hear how standardization, high-stakes testing, and policy decisions made by non-educators may be contributing to teachers’ decisions to leave education. Music:  Theme Song By Julian Saporiti  “So Stark (You’re a Skyscraper” by Matt LeGroulx is licensed under a CC BY-NC-SA license. “Cat and Mouse” by Scott Holmes Music is licensed under a CC  BY license. “Space (Outro)” by Andy Cohen is licensed under a CC  BY license.   “Home Fire” by Nul Tiel Records is licensed under a CC BY-NC-SA license. “Press Conference” by Blanket Music is licensed under a CC BY-NC license. “Things Change” by HoliznaCC0 is in the Public Domain.  “Living Life” by Scott Holmes Music is licensed under a CC BY-NC license. “Boulevard St Germain” by Jahzzar is licensed under a CC BY-SA license.  “Hungaria” by Latche Swing is licensed under a CC BY-NC-SA license. “Business Getaway ” by Scott Holmes Music is licensed under a CC  BY license. Transcript: I used to listen to the Dixie Chicks’s song “Wide Open Spaces” before wrestling matches because I would get too wound up. It helped me slow down my breathing and relax.  In junior high and high school, I was fixated on winning and losing. I’d get a pit in my stomach, psyche myself up and out, all to my detriment. I was terrified of failing, of being a disappointment or an embarrassment.  Then I went to college. I walked-on to the University of Wyoming’s wrestling team. During my meeting with Steve Suder, the head coach, he told me, “You know, you’ll be walking into a room with a bunch of state champs. Are you worried about that?” I told him, “No, I’m not” because those were the guys  that I wanted to be wrestling against. I was a two-time state placer and I had nothing to lose. Suder said, “Good,” and then told me that he never won state either, but he ended up being an All-American for the University of Wyoming, so there was hope for me.  During our conversation, in between adjusting this chewed up yellow cushion he used as a back support, he told me that I was like the pretty girl’s funny friend at a party. I’m not someone he noticed right off the bat, but once he got to know me, he was happy to have me around. He meant this in the best way possible, and I didn’t mind.  I made the team, worked my butt off, won some matches, and lost more than I won. And I hate losing, but it felt different. I was excited to be wrestling, not nervous. Suder made it clear that his expectations were low, but he was happy to have me. I focused on gaining experience and the process and growing as a wrestler and a person. And I got to wrestle a guy named Brent Metcalf, who is the only person I wrestled that had a documentary made about him. When someone asked Metcalf why he didn’t celebrate wins, he said, “I don't want to give my opponent the satisfaction of watching me celebrate, which would make it look like a big deal that I beat him.” This dude is a monster.  It was an extraordinarily humbling match. I had no control of my own body - his fingers were in my mouth at one point, but I learned what it was like to wrestle the best. It was eye-opening.  My tenure as a collegiate wrestler only lasted that year,but I remained in contact with Coach Suder off and on until his passing in 2019. And I had changed. My priorities shifted from valuing product to process.    When I became an assistant high school wrestling coach, the head coach had also wrestled for Coach Suder, and so we continued his tradition of emphasizing process. And what I noticed is that the wrestlers felt less pressure. They only tried being better today than they were yesterday. And when they have that mindset, success, though not guaranteed, is more likely. They are wrestling to compete and to score points. And even if they don’t have success, they do the best they can do at that moment, and that’s always worth being proud of.  In education, we focus on the product, on assessment. There is an obsession with passing or failing and we seem to have forgotten the value of process, which is where many teachers live. So today, we are going to look at how a structure of education that values standardized assessments could be contributing to teachers deciding to leave the profession, and because some of the frustrations with standardized assessment is a federal issue, which is too much to address here, we’ll explore a possible solution to the high stakes assessment issue in Wyoming, which would hopefully keep teachers in education.  This is Those Who Can’t Teach Anymore, a 7-part podcast series exploring why teachers are leaving education and what can be done to stop the exodus. I’m Charles Fournier. Here is part 5: “Education has a Tourist Problem” Mark Perkins: I do think that for a lot of teachers who are leaving, and this is speculative, but I think it's reasonable to assume that if you alleviated some of the assessment requirements within their schools, their satisfaction would increase. I don't think that that's a jump.  This is Mark Perkins, he is an Assistant Professor of Education Research Methods at the University of Wyoming and he is talking about the survey results he gathered about teacher attrition in Wyoming. So many teachers, both teachers leaving and teachers staying, reported that they were not happy with assessments. As we’ve heard from teachers that left teaching, there wasn’t one thing that pushed them out of teaching. It was the layering of factors. And if we want to keep more teachers from leaving, it would be worth trying to address some of the most consistent factors. Aside from overall well-being and feeling supported, assessment is one the most consistent teacher frustrations. Now before we get into what specifically teachers don’t like about assessment, I think it’s important to think about why education currently has assessments, and this goes back to what we talked about last episode: the purpose of education and needing to be able to measure success for whatever that purpose is. Simply put, we need to reflect on what we want kids to know and how we can measure what they know. Mark explains. Mark Perkins: And so what does school success really look like? That sounds like an interesting, easy question. It's like, Well, kids know how to do math. Well, okay. What does that look like? Well, they can add, subtract, divide. All right. So what? When you start drilling into the actual requirements to exist and inhabit the world, the factors become much more latent than what we measure. But we fixated ourselves purely on content. During our conversation, Mark explained that there are a ton of other things that we want for students: self-awareness, identity development, civic consciousness, the ability to have some gumption and as Mark phrased it, drag a horse through the mud. But none of those qualities are easy to measure, which means it’s more difficult to measure a teacher’s overall effectiveness. This brings us back to the focus on content.  Mark Perkins: But all of the focus has been on reading math, science and somewhat government. How does a teacher who navigates let's call it the multivariate universe of being an educator. How do you evaluate teaching for the holistic aspects of the job? While we don't?  It would be difficult to assess students and teachers in the Multivariate Universe of education, as Mark puts it, so we assess a few content areas, and only a few things in those content areas. Many mission statements want to acknowledge the whole student, but we only assess a fraction of the student.  For example, I have a grant application unit for my sophomores. They do research and write a grant to receive hypothetical funding that they can use to address a real problem within our community. I don’t limit students on what kinds of problems they want to address, so students have looked at drug use or homelessness or access to sports or social justice issues.  When students submit their grant applications, we go through a selection process. Students read each other's grants anonymously and identify ones that meet all of the grant requirements and would, in their minds, best serve our community. By the end of the process, all of my classes vote on the one grant that should receive the hypothetical funding. Every year I’ve done this, the grants that make the final vote, the ones that all of my students have pushed forward, are philanthropic and genuinely kind. And I tell my students this, usually as I tear up, that this project gives me hope for the future because through their research, writing, discussions, and voting, they prove that they are empathetic humans. I learn much more about what my students can do through this project than any standardized assessment that I’ve been required to administer. And this is a frustration echoed by teacher after teacher. If the thing that is used to reflect a district’s success is a bubble-sheet test, that can feel pretty disheartening. Because from the teachers’ perspective, the results of those tests, the results that are reported in the paper and raise community questions like, “What are they even teaching kids in school?” those tests lack validity. They’re not the best way to measure whether the kids are alright, and Mark has questions about how well these tests show what kids know and how well they predict the future success of students, which is often

    58 min

  6. EPISODE 6

    Those Who Stay

    The first step to solving the problem of teacher attrition is to admit that there is a problem. Some groups have already taken this step, and they are listening to teachers in order to create solutions that will retain teachers. These programs make a big difference, but their approach isn’t the norm. In this episode, we hear about successful efforts to keep teachers in education, and we’ll ask the question: Who should have the responsibility of keeping teachers in education?  Music:  Theme Song By Julian Saporiti  “Sunlight” by Nul Tiel Records is licensed under a CC BY-NC-SA license. “I’m Fat” by Blanket Music is licensed under a CC BY-NC license. “Keep The Prices Down” by Blanket Music is licensed under a CC BY-NC license. “Kaptan Hayvanlar Alemi” by Hayvanlar Alemi  is licensed under a CC BY-NC-SA license. “Grab a Bargain” by Scott Holmes Music is licensed under a CC  BY license. “Place on my Bonfire” by Lobo Loco is licensed under a CC BY-NC-SA license. “Your Paradigm Dial” by Origami Repetika  is licensed under a CC  BY license.  Transcipt My third grade teacher had a phone booth in his classroom. It was a full size, glass booth that was mostly sound-proof. The phone booth was the choice place to spend any indoor recess, but during class, it was used as the equivalent of a time-out. Our teacher was a mustachioed man who called his facial hair his “cookie duster” and wore tinted-glasses and thick collared polyester shirts,  If a student was misbehaving, he would point that student to the phone booth, and that’s where the student would remain for the rest of the lesson.  Discipline reigned in his class. I’m not sure if this is a quality of 3rd grade teachers in general, but both of the 3rd grade teachers at my school at the time were strict, and my parents loved it. I appreciate  some of it now, but at the time I thought it was downright oppressive - especially disciplining groups of kids together, which I’m still not a fan of.  There was a week-stretch in particular where our class lost out on several recesses because a core group of kids were acting out. I don’t remember what they were doing, but I remember the sinking feeling of losing out on the chance to play tetherball or football or to climb on those tractor tires that were half buried in the ground and always had a faint smell of urine. We were stuck indoors.  I complained to my dad about the injustice when he picked me up from school. I ranted about inequity and being punished for something I didn’t do. And I remember his response clearly. He asked me if I was part of the problem or part of the solution. He had to explain what “solution”meant, and then he told me that I needed to think about whether I was helping or hurting the situation.  I realized that even if I wasn’t doing anything wrong, I still might not be part of the solution. Like a whole gaggle of my parents’ other truisms that I didn’t want to hear at the time, this has stuck with me. We’ve spent the last 5 episodes looking at what factors, what problems, might be contributing to teachers leaving education. Over half of all teachers are considering leaving the profession, but there are teachers who are staying, some of them stay thanks to efforts made by organizations to convince teachers to remain in education. So, today, we’re going to think about solutions that keep brilliant teachers in education, but we’ll also ask the question, whose responsibility is it to keep teachers in education? This is Those Who Can’t Teach Anymore, a 7-part podcast series exploring why teachers are leaving education and what can be done to stop the exodus. I’m Charles Fournier. Here is part 6: “Those Who Stay” Elizabeth Smith: I brought mimosas. I hope you don't mind. I met Elizabeth on the back patio of the Middle Fork restaurant in Lander, Wyoming. If her voice sounds familiar, it’s because we heard from her earlier in the series. She wore a blue dress with flower print and she carried a binder and a tote bag. The binder had a copy of her research thesis about retention of teachers on reservations and from the bag she pulled two flute champagne glasses, a jug of orange juice, and a bottle of champagne. Elizabeth is a veteran teacher, she loves teaching, and part of why she loves it might have to do some with her background. As we drank mimosas under the shade of a tree, she told me about her unique upbringing. Elizabeth Smith: I have a very, very crazy back story. I was raised in a cult. And I dropped out of school in seventh grade. And I never went to high school. And we were raised in a situation in which we didn't have television or outside influence. So I was very isolated and programmed to believe a certain way. And so I got my GED when I was 19, the same year, I got my driver's license, I ran away from home twice, and was successfully out of the house and the religion, the high control, the second time that I left, and so my understanding of educators is completely different.   A quality of early American education that we learned about in the second episode was the idea that teachers would be taught in the education system themselves and so the education hierarchy would be ingrained into them – it was almost a pre-teacher training. Elizabeth didn’t go to public school, so some of these stereotypical expectations aren’t perpetuated in her teaching practice, which might contribute to why she loves it. Elizabeth Smith: I love what I do. I love teaching, I have high respect for myself, in the work that I do. I know the mistakes that I make, in reflection, for the most part, I'm sure there's some that I'm unaware of, but I enjoy helping people understand themselves, you know, because it's been a huge chore of mine to be able to get to the point where I have undone all the programming that I have experienced in life. And because of her youth, she was drawn to a sense of spirituality she found in teaching. Elizabeth Smith: Coming from a really hardcore, high control, religious background. I feel like I suffered spiritual abuse. And so disconnected me from myself, in a lot of ways. And so my whole life, like I told you has been spent trying to figure out who I am. And one of the things in teaching that you'll, especially if you read my research, you'll see that the spiritual connection with making relationships with other people and knowing that what you're doing is valued is a big part of spirituality. The research Elizabeth points to was tied to her Masters Thesis. She focused on why teachers stay, especially non-native teachers, in reservation schools. What Elizabeth found is that those who stay feel a sense of acceptance, a sense of appreciation that what they bring to a community is valuable. And this is why Elizabeth stays too. She feels like what she does matters. She feels a connection to her students and, for the most part, she feels valued as a teacher.  Elizabeth Smith: I've only taught on reservation schools. So I've only taught in Indian country and there is a cultural perception from Native communities that really value teachers. So that's one of the reasons why non-native teachers decided to stay and have such longevity in reservation country because there is an old school respect for teachers.  I want to be transparent here. Elizabeth isn’t totally satisfied with her job - we’re drinking mimosas because she just finished up the school day and wanted to wind down. During our conversation, Elizabeth pointed out her frustrations, which echo many of the frustrations that we’ve heard in this podcast. She explained situations where she felt devalued or not listened to or stretched thin. She admitted that after teaching for 20 years, the thought of leaving education has crossed her mind, but she said that as long as this year feels like things are getting better, she plans on staying in education. And this is worth pointing out - even teachers that are staying in education by choice have frustrations. I say by choice because there are the teachers that feel stuck because they are close to retirement, need the insurance, or need the immediate income. Part of what’s keeping Elizabeth, even when she has frustrations, is the fact that she feels like what she does matters and that she feels valued in her community.  Those things might seem small, but we’re at a point where many teachers are frustrated and feel neither value nor purpose.  I have felt that. The past few years especially - it didn’t feel like anything I did in my classroom mattered, and too often when I met someone new and told them I was a teacher, they’d tell me a story about how bad their kid’s teachers were or how they had chewed out some teacher for something that, when they explained it to me, was just a terrible reason. They acted righteous and I felt devalued by association.  What picked me up was this project - the one that you’re listening to right now. A podcast that explores why teachers were leaving education was a thought I have talked with my wife about since she left teaching, but I never pursued it. Not until I saw and applied for a Fund for Teachers Fellowship, which is a grant for teachers who want to create their own form of professional development. This seems small, but it’s kind of mind-blowing and has made a world of difference for me. Stephanie Ascherl:  Teachers don't usually get a lot of choice. Professional development is determined for them, it's very top down.  This is Stephanie Ascherl, she is the Chief of Staff at Fund for Teachers, and she’s worked for the organization going on 18 years.  Stephanie Ascherl: What's unique about Fund For Teachers is that we empower the teacher to tell us, no one at Fund for Teachers will ever tell you what you should do to be a better teacher because we really trust that you know yourself and your studen

    38 min

  7. EPISODE 7

    Those Who Can't Teach Anymore

    Think about your favorite teacher. What were they like? What made them your favorite? Now, imagine if your favorite teacher quit their job before you had them in your life. What would you have lost? Think about what future generations of students will lose if more teachers leave because teachers don’t feel valued or trusted or fairly compensated. If things don’t change, more teachers will leave because they are realizing that they can. In this episode, we hear from former teachers who left education and are happier for it.   Music:  Theme Song By Julian Saporiti  “Don’t You Leave” by Crowander is licensed under a CC BY-NC license. “Happening for Lulu” by Kraus   is licensed under a CC BY-NC-SA license. “Soldier’s Story” by Blanket Music  is licensed under a CC BY-NC license. “Be Nice” by Jahzzar is licensed under a CC BY-SA license. “Fireworks” by Jahzzar is licensed under a CC BY-SA license. “Faster, Sons of Vengeance, Faster!” by Doctor Turtle is licensed under a CC BY-NC license. “Changing Moment (ID 1651)” by Lobo Loco is licensed under a CC BY-NC-SA license. Transcript: A quick warning, this episode discusses sexual abuse. During the quarantine, I received an anonymous letter from a former student that had since graduated. After pleasantries, the note says “I’m writing you now to thank you for things that you never knew you did when I was your student.”  And then they go on to explain that though I would not have known this, they had been sexually abused by their father, and they had just found the strength to tell someone, cut ties, and start the healing process. They said that my class was a space that made them feel safe, heard, and respected. They wrote that I helped them quote “understand that there are good men, ones that deserve to be fathers.” end quote They were intentional in saying that they didn’t know if I would figure out who they were, but regardless, they wanted to thank me and let me know that I played a part in helping them get through the abuse.  Every time I read this letter, it breaks me. I hate that this student had to go through this. I hate their father. I am humbled by the fact that I could be a source of support for this student, and I hope so badly that they can heal.  No kid should ever have to experience this, but they do, and because they do, they need adults, teachers, in their lives that can support them, even if those adults are unaware of that support. We need teachers who are themselves supported and happy and in a space that values them, so that they can be as wholly present as possible for students. But at this moment in time, many teachers, so of the people that students need most, don’t want to teach anymore. And that fact is devastating. We’re at the end of this series. We’ve explored a variety of things contributing to teachers leaving the profession - feelings of being devalued, a lack of autonomy, struggles with mental health. We’ve looked at why teachers might be treated the way they have been, from pop-cultural stereotypes to an odd historical inheritance …to having unclear expectations of what education is for. And we’ve even looked at some solutions and where they come from. All of this to make sense of why teachers might be leaving, and to draw attention to the fact that without authentic and relevant change that is not the burden of teachers, teachers will keep leaving.  Today, we will hear teachers who left education explain how their lives are now, and  we will explore some resources available to teachers who are looking to leave education. And from what I’ve heard through interviews and people reaching out to me because of this podcast, a vast majority of teachers that have left the classroom are much happier. So, if nothing from this season has convinced you that we need to do something to keep teachers in education and something real, maybe this episode will. I am not saying this as a threat, but from the perspective of a realist. Think of it as a natural consequence. Refuse to address and take genuine action to keep teachers, or they will find their way out of education because they can. And in this present moment, they will likely be happier for it.  This is the finale to Those Who Can’t Teach Anymore, a 7-part podcast series exploring why teachers are leaving education and what can be done to stop the exodus. I’m Charles Fournier. Here is part 7: “Those Who Can’t Teach Anymore” Camile Lofters reached out to me in the early stages of this project. Camile was a high school English and journalism teacher in south Florida. She left teaching after 15 years in the classroom , and she was one of those people that felt destined to be in the classroom. Camile Lofters: I feel like teaching was in my blood.  My mom was an early childhood education major and taught preschool, and, you know, lower elementary school. So I mean, I grew up watching her, and wanting to emulate her. So I would line up my stuffed animals and like, I had a little pointer, and I would teach them things. And when I graduated, I was so excited to start teaching that it was like everything to me. But like most of the people that shared their stories throughout this podcast, Camile left. And even though she is from Florida and most of the other folks I’ve spoken with are from Wyoming and the west, Camile’s reasons for leaving were the same. She pointed to not being trusted or seen as an expert, to politicians that oversteps their role in education, to low pay, to being undervalued, and the list goes on. And like the other teachers, Camile still values education. Camile Lofters: Even though I did leave the profession, I still love teaching, and I still think it's one of the greatest professions. But as we all know, in our country, education system is a little broken, maybe it's a lot broken is a better way to say it. So, I feel like when the pandemic happened, it sort of broke everything wide open forever for a lot of people. I mean, it's not like it's just me.  We haven’t addressed the pandemic much throughout this series. Not because the pandemic didn’t have a significant impact on teachers deciding to leave, but because the reasons teachers are leaving didn’t start with the pandemic.The pandemic forced teachers to reflect on what they’re willing or not willing to accept. Camile reflected on whether she could teach for another two decades. Camile Lofters: And the answer used to be yes, I'm going to teach until I’m 60. And when it started to become like I don’t know, and then it was like, definitely not. And I was like, this means I need to do something else. You know, if I'm feeling that way, it's not fair to myself, my family, but also I think to the students. They deserve to have teachers that are really excited to be there. And yes, I am a good teacher and I could go back and still I think do a good job, but I just feel like mentally I would be falling apart and that's not that's not really fair to anybody. You’ve heard this throughout the series. Many teachers are leaving because they know that they aren’t doing their job as well as they want to, so they leave. The pandemic contributed to this. More teachers thought about what they could and couldn’t do anymore. The pandemic made the job more difficult. Skepticism of teachers rose, student and parent behaviors became worse, everyone’s mental health seemed to get worse, and more expectations were placed on teachers. Teachers know this, but when more is put on a teacher’s plate, it’s usually not taken off.  Camile felt this, and she also had a daughter in the middle of it all.  Camile Lofters: That 2020-2021 school year was just really, really difficult. And so then by the time my daughter was born, you know, in June 2021, I was like, No, this is this, I gotta find something else. So she started the process of looking for something that she could transition into. And she was looking for something that  would allow for more financial opportunities. On top of having a daughter, feeling all of the frustrations and stressors of teaching and the impact of the pandemic, Camile wanted to be paid better. Camile Lofters: Pay was a big part of it. It's really disheartening to work so hard for so long and never see an increase in your salary. I graduated from college with all my friends, we were all making about the same amount of money. And now most of them are making double, if not triple you. You know what I'm making. I worked really hard to be a good teacher and constantly doing professional development and looking for new strategies. And so I think it's disheartening to not have that come with any sort of raise and compensation. So I will say that that was definitely a factor when I realized that if you account for inflation, I had basically never gotten a raise, like ever. And her only prospect for a raise was to become an administrator, despite all of the extra work she’d done like designing curriculums.  Camile Lofters: And I hate when people say, “Well, you didn't go into teaching for the money.” Well, of course I didn't, but I'm a human being that needs to survive, I have a family and I would like to be able to provide for them. Pay matters, so Camile left teaching and transitioned into a new career where she feels better about the pay.  Camile Lofters: So, I've been making a little bit more money, not a ton, but a little bit, and it does matter to me, because there is the potential for me to make more money. In my job, I have the potential to earn more, And there's a lot of room for growth. And so that was very appealing to me, to actually be in a position where there could be more upward movement in my salary.  Camile acknowledges that she now has to pay her own health insurance which means her take home pay is about equal to what she was making as a teacher, but tha

    50 min

  8. SEASON 1 TRAILER

    Season Trailer: Those Who Can't Teach Anymore

    Brilliant teachers are leaving education in droves, and they will continue to leave unless something changes. In February of 2022, the National Education Association reported that 55% of teachers were thinking about leaving education earlier than they had planned. The history and politics surrounding education, portrayels of education in pop-culture, and difficulty of teaching conditions have been feeding into why teachers want to leave. If we don't take time to listen to teachers and work towards fostering an environment that makes them want to stay, great teachers will continue to leave the profession.

    3 min

  9. BONUS

    Bonus: Presenting This Changes Everything

    Those Who Can't Teach Anymore presents the award-winning episode, "The Kids Are Not All Right," from This Changes Everything, a Cascade Public Media/Crosscut podcast. In this episode, producer and host Sara Bernard explores how the pandemic has exacerbated the mental health of students and teachers. In a moment when students and teachers are in need of support, the questions remain: What is being done and is it enough? To hear more about how the pandemic has impacted schools, check out the rest of This Changes Everything, Season 3.

    46 min

  10. BONUS

    Bonus: Presenting Those Who Can't Do

    Those Who Can't Teach Anymore presents a segment from the podcast Those Who Can't Do, hosted by Andrea Forcum. In this segment, Charles Fournier talks with Andrea about teacher attrition, absurd dress codes, and what not to do in your classroom. To hear the whole episode and more episodes from Andrea's podcast, check out Those Who Can't Do wherever you get your podcasts.

    17 min

  11. BONUS

    Bonus: Presenting The Modern West

    Those Who Can't Teach Anymore presents a segment that Charles Fournier produced for the podcast The Modern West. In this segment, "One Size Does Not Fit All," you will meet Iva, an innovative teacher conducting scientific research with her middle schoolers on the Wind River Reservation. They even set up trail cameras! You can find other episodes from The Modern West wherever you find podcasts.

    32 min

Trailer

4.6
out of 5
344 Ratings

About

"Those Who Can’t Teach Anymore" is an Ambie Nominated, Award-Winning, 7-part podcast series exploring why teachers are leaving education and what can be done to stop the exodus.

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