Customer Confidential: Untold Stories of Earned Growth Rob Markey, Bain & Company partner and customer experience expert

Episode 236: When telecom rivals offered lower rates and bigger networks, Macquarie bet big on customer loyalty—and won.
David Tudehope, Macquarie Technology Group’s CEO, joins Rob Markey to discuss Macquarie’s competitive differentiator: a bold, customer-centric approach.
David co-founded Macquarie to prioritize exceptional customer experience over price and network quality competition. Joining David is Joseph Michelli, author of Customer Magic: The Macquarie Way, who shares a key moment about how a product launch was postponed and short-term profits were sacrificed due to customer need misalignment.
"We weren't living our purpose if we proceeded. We had to take our medicine and accept stakeholder disappointment," David recalls.
That leadership decision reinforced Macquarie's culture. Transparency and real-time feedback improved employer-customer interactions, workforce engagement, and Net Promoter Scores. Sharing real, exceptional service examples inspired employees to excel when creating memorable customer experiences.
Impressive results include exceptional shareholder returns and consistently having Australian telecom’s lowest per-customer complaint volume.
Guests: David Tudehope, CEO of Macquarie Technology Group, and Joseph Michelli, Ph.D., author of Customer Magic: The Macquarie Way
Host: Rob Markey, Partner, Bain & Company
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Time-stamped list of topics covered:
(00:00:13 - 00:01:12) Identifying market opportunities by recognizing underserved and overcharged segments in telecom
(00:01:12 - 00:03:09) Initial business strategy to develop a better billing system and the importance of customer experience
(00:03:03 - 00:04:54) Customer experience as a core value and how making tough decisions helps prioritize customer satisfaction
(00:04:54 - 00:06:33) Navigating industry competition and differentiating through customer service in a price-focused market
(00:06:28 - 00:12:06) Empowering employees with transparency, real-time feedback, and engagement strategies
(00:12:18 - 00:18:19) Overcoming challenges like billing complaints and learning from feedback
(00:18:19 - 00:26:28) Cultural reinforcement and how storytelling can inspire employees
(00:26:19 - 00:28:12) Continuous improvement in NPS through cultural shifts
(00:28:15 - 00:31:32) Self-propelled learning and institutional growth and how to develop a sustainable model for continuous improvement
Time-stamped list of notable quotes:
(00:05:55) "The customer experience is the compass from which we make hard decisions.”
(00:05:43) "Our purpose is making a difference for customers that are underserved and overcharged."
(00:8:09) "Macquarie has between zero and two complaints a year."
(00:17:03) "Our real-time feedback of customer experience scores to staff has been very powerful."
(00:17:38) "When we took our hands off the big levers, we actually got significant change."
(00:34:42) "We found that when we educated the person on their bill, they became an advocate for us."
(00:30:21) "Storytelling has been transformational for our business."
(00:35:55) "Our model is self-learning and self-propelled, and it has been that way for 10 years."
Additional Resources:
Read Joseph Michelli’s book: Customer Magic: The Macquarie Way

Episode 235: In 2012, T-Mobile lost nearly two million customers. Its revenue fell precipitously. Its situation seemed hopeless. Then came a new CEO with an audacious plan and a penchant for F-bombs.
Jon Freier, president of T-Mobile’s US Consumer Group, joins host Rob Markey to share his firsthand account of the remarkable corporate turnaround. Jon describes the “Un-carrier” strategy, from its risky beginnings to its industry-reshaping impact. He shares how T-Mobile broke the mold, challenged conventions, and ultimately won over customers by putting their needs first.
According to Jon, “The whole premise of the Un-carrier movement was about fixing a stupid, broken, arrogant industry.”
Under the leadership of new CEO John Legere, T-Mobile used data-driven insights to uncover the “bad profits” that dominated the mobile telecom industry in the US at the time. Determined to not only turn the company around but to change the industry, T-Mobile made a huge bet on customer value and what we at Bain now call Earned Growth: the idea that forgoing bad profits to deliver more value to customers would not only reduce churn but ultimately attract new customers through word of mouth.
Jon shares some of T-Mobile’s biggest game-changing innovations. He lays out bets on dramatic changes to handset pricing and contract renewal terms, a daring move from high-priced “buckets” of limited data to unlimited plans, repricing international roaming, and the innovative T-Mobile Tuesdays rewards program. He also highlights the impact of the “Team of Experts” customer service model.
The results have been eye-popping. T-Mobile reestablished customer growth, received the highest ranking in the telecommunications & media Internet sector regarding NPS rankings (as measured by Bain’s NPS Prism telecom benchmarking), and has outperformed the stock market by many multiples.
Guest: Jon Freier, President, T-Mobile US Consumer Group
Host: Rob Markey, Partner, Bain & Company
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Additional resources:
T-Mobile’s CEO on Winning Market Share by Trash-Talking Rivals
Reinventing Customer Service: How T-Mobile achieved record levels of quality and productivity
Un-carrier History
Learn about Bain’s NPS Prism
Time-stamped list of topics covered:
[2:29] The dire state of T-Mobile in 2012
[6:00] John Legere’s arrival and the birth of the “Un-carrier” strategy
[10:36] Breaking down the old telecom model: from contracts to transparency
[16:28] Early signs of success and the importance of leading indicators
[19:17] Overcoming internal skepticism and building organizational buy-in
[21:51] T-Mobile’s unique approach to customer service and the “Team of Experts”
[24:27] Using data to anticipate customer needs and personalize experiences
[28:14] Frontline Connect: Immersing leaders in the customer experience
[30:12] T-Mobile’s winning loyalty plays: unlimited data, T-Mobile Tuesdays, and Simple Global
[33:27] Lessons learned and the future of customer loyalty in telecom
Time-stamped list of notable quotes:
[3:14] “We were losing two million customers a year … Revenues were going down, costs were going up, and earnings were plummeting.”
[3:40] “Hopeless, that would be the word I would use in 2012. We’re just stuck.”
[5:59] “In walks a new CEO named John Legere ... dropping F-bombs in a very large all-employee meeting, and you’re like, ‘Did he just say what I thought he just said?’”
[12:21] “If you treat customers great and you treat them better than your competitors, guess what? They’ll stay.”
[14:31] “The biggest risk is doing exactly the same [thing]. Where our business was, it needed a bold shakeup.”
[15:28] “You might not have to be perfect

Why do some retailers excel at creating a welcoming environment for a diverse customer base while others fall short?
Bain & Company's Naiara De León and Madison Dyal Anderson discuss their research on how companies that excel in customer advocacy and inclusion consistently outperform their peers by a staggering 10 percentage points annually.
Beyond quantifying inclusion's sizable revenue impact, they also share data from their survey of over 7,700 US consumers on the lasting negative psychological toll exclusion has on retail customers—and why one bad experience can turn someone off a brand forever.
We analyze the root of the issue: What causes consumer exclusion in the first place? We also share examples of companies’ winning inclusive strategies, from the importance of eye contact to plentiful product assortment to purposefully designed campaigns.
Guest: Naiara De León, Partner, Bain & Company
Guest: Madison Dyal Anderson, Partner, Bain & Company
Host: Rob Markey, Partner, Bain & Company
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Time-stamped list of topics covered:
[3:30] Research study overview and key findings
[6:33] Research findings on how inclusion is universally important
[8:02] Personal experiences of feeling welcomed or excluded in different stores
[10:13] Balancing inclusivity with a retail brand’s target market
[12:16] How the feeling of belonging or being welcomed affects customer advocacy
[13:04] Types of negative retail experiences that lead to customer detractors
[15:00] The subtleties of interaction that affect customer perceptions of inclusion
[20:14] Examples of companies that have created welcoming and inclusive atmospheres
[22:10] How product assortments and staff training contribute to inclusivity
[26:32] How retailers can assess and improve their levels of inclusivity for good
[30:54] The greater impact of inclusive practices on strategy and market position
Time-stamped list of notable quotes:
[00:32] “There is this line between welcomed and belonging. The core customer needs to feel like they belong.”
[2:24] “Universally, customers across all demographics desire to feel invited and welcomed.”
[6:33] “Inclusion matters to everyone. It's actually pretty universal.”
[10:34] “The core customer needs to feel like they belong. That's where you are tuning in to those behaviors and those customer segment needs and wants. Make people feel heard and seen.”
[14:45] “[In terms of survey findings, there were] verbatims that talked about, ‘The store associate never made eye contact with me. I have hearing loss and that made [communication] very hard. English is not my first language and I need that eye contact to carry all the way through [a conversation].”
[31:13] “It is quite profitable to [prioritize inclusivity] because it helps you grow. It helps you lead, versus your peers. It’s also the right thing to do.”
Additional Resources:
Read Madison and Naiara’s Bain research, In Retail, Inclusive Customer Journeys Lead to Growth

What if the key to creating truly innovative products and solutions lies at least as much in uncovering the deep emotional and attitudinal needs of your customers as in mastering technology?
Eckhart Boehme, founder and managing director of Unipro Solutions, shares his approach to putting Clayton Christensen’s Jobs to Be Done framework into practical use. Eckhart demonstrates how in-depth interviews with customers and their families can reveal the underlying personal experiences, emotions, and desires that truly motivate people to seek out and purchase products or services. With these insights in hand, companies often uncover fundamentally different needs than they first anticipated, sometimes even opening up new markets or uses for their products.
We also discuss Eckhart’s Wheel of Progress model, which he designed to reveal the hidden layers of reasoning behind customer decisions. It provides a systematic way to deconstruct customer narratives and identify the jobs that are most likely to drive customer decisions along their cyclical journeys. Learn how this model segments the customer journey into phases of motivation, decision-making, and action. He brings this all to life with a compelling case study about finding a senior living place for an elderly loved one, revealing a hidden but critical job to be done: giving the elderly parent a sense of purpose.
Our conversation also lays bare some common pitfalls when applying the Jobs to Be Done framework, such as focusing too narrowly on functional jobs while missing the bigger picture of the customer's overarching goals and emotional needs.
Guest: Eckhart Boehme, Founder and Managing Director, Unipro Solutions
Host: Rob Markey, Partner, Bain & Company
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Time-stamped list of topics covered
[1:19] How Jobs to Be Done goes deeper than traditional customer needs analysis
[3:02] Clarifying what Jobs to Be Done entails and why it’s a game changer
[6:08] The Wheel of Progress model and its role in dissecting customer decisions
[10:41] Applying Jobs to Be Done in complex customer service scenarios
[15:00] The practical steps and challenges in implementing this framework
[20:14] Examples of transformative customer insights derived from in-depth interviews
[22:10] Strategies for businesses to effectively harness Jobs to Be Done
[30:54] Future trends and directions in customer experience research
Time-stamped list of notable quotes:
[6:26] “You want to understand where the story starts. What [event] triggered people [wanting to conduct] research and go through pain. Understanding what triggers people have is very valuable because then you can start building a relationship—even before people have started going to a search engine to look for a solution."
[7:51] “When we look at the customer journey, we call it ‘the cycle of progress’ because we think that people make progress in cycles."
[16:01] "We try to design our offerings and the marketing and sales processes to focus on helping customers make progress.”
[24:23] “Jobs to Be Done helps you to do the right thing and design thinking helps you to do things right."
Additional Resources:
Learn more about Eckhart’s Wheel of Progress Learn more about HBS professor Clay Christensen’s Jobs to Be Done Theory and his famous story about how to improve milkshake sales

Matt Harris, Partner at Bain Capital Ventures, argues that generative AI will soon empower customers in unexpected ways. Consumers, he predicts, will soon use AI tools to continuously discover lower loan rates, higher-yield savings accounts, or more attractive insurance policies.
As a result, Matt anticipates a shift in customer-company power dynamics. Imagine, for example, an AI agent able to continuously move your deposits to the highest-yielding savings accounts or refinance your loans to the best available rates with little intervention required from you. Imagine consumer tools for interpreting medical scans and providing a diagnosis to compare to your doctor's assessment. Generative AI could even transform the future of mental health therapy to be more effective, efficient, and streamlined.
Join us as we discuss the present and future of consumers' newfound AI-driven power and analyze where organizations and their leaders should be pointed next to remain competitive.
Guest: Matt Harris, Partner, Bain Capital Ventures
Host: Rob Markey, Partner, Bain & Company
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Want to get in touch? Send a note to host Rob Markey: https://www.robmarkey.com/contact-rob
Time-stamped list of topics covered:
[02:53] How businesses use generative AI for productivity and future innovation [09:23] Discussion on the Gartner Hype Cycle for generative AI [17:09] What it means for customers to be “superpowered” and an overview of a few generative AI applications in finance and medicine [22:28] AI's impact on society and the future of work [27:44] Adapting to a world with superpowered customers who now demand more from businesses, emphasizing the need for deepened customer relationships and greater levels of innovation Time-stamped list of notable quotes:
[10:55] "Every new technology experiences [influx and they] disillusion the rest of the market because they have these spectacular failures.” [14:20] “[Generative AI] is a much more powerful tool for customers than it is for companies. And an equal or larger part of energy should be going in these boardrooms to imagining a world where customers have the power of generative AI and the implications for your entire business model.” [18:00] “I revere doctors. But how could we expect that a single human being would have all of the medical knowledge in their head? This is something computers will be better at.” [22:16] "I think I could make an argument that generative AI, combined with predictive machine learning, and being moved forward as fast as these technologies are advancing, will be better at almost everything.” [27:53] “We should be spending as much energy thinking and worrying and planning for a ‘superpowered’ customer world as we are thinking about how we use [technology] ourselves, and I’m just not seeing people doing that.” Additional Resources:
Read Matt’s article for BCV, The Age of the Superpowered Customer The Age of AI and Our Human Future by Henry A. Kissinger, Eric Schmidt, and Daniel Huttenlocher The AI Advantage by Thomas H. Davenport Prediction Machines by Ajay Agrawal, Joshua Gans, and Avi Goldfarb Learn about Bain’s spin-off, Bain Capital, which has operated as a separate company since 1984 Learn More About Our Guest and Host:
Guest: Matt Harris LinkedIn Profile Host: Rob Markey LinkedIn Profile

Discover the engine of Earned Growth as Rob Markey and Fred Reichheld, Bain Fellow and "Winning On Purpose” author, hold a working session on how references and referrals significantly contribute to organic growth.
Rob and Fred unearth the pivotal role that references and referrals play in propelling Earned Growth. They answer key questions such as: How would you characterize different referral types? What are the best mechanisms for measuring and attributing value to them? How do you navigate the tricky path of fostering genuine, organic referrals at scale?
Together, they explore one of the thorniest issues in accounting for the value of referrals: How much of a new referred customer’s value should accrue to the referring customer versus the referred one?
Guest: Fred Reichheld, Bain Fellow, founder of Bain's Loyalty Practice
Host: Rob Markey, Partner, Bain & Company
Give Us Feedback:
We’d love to hear from you. Help us enhance your podcast experience by providing feedback here in our listener survey.
Want to get in touch? Send a note to host Rob Markey: https://www.robmarkey.com/contact-rob
Time-stamped list of topics covered:
02:00 - Unveiling the Referral Spectrum 08:30 - Measuring the Impact of Referrals 15:45 - Attributing Value: Who Benefits? 22:10 - Fostering a Culture of Earned Growth Time-stamped list of notable quotes:
02:25 - Rob Markey: "A genuine referral, an authentic referral, is motivated by some form of goodwill towards the recipient." 05:45 - Fred Reichheld: "Earned Growth is not just a metric, it's a philosophy." 19:30 - Fred Reichheld: "The value of a referral is the cornerstone of organic expansion.” Additional Resources:
Winning On Purpose by Fred Reichheld Bain & Company’s Insights on Earned Growth Guest and Host Bio Links:
Fred Reichheld LinkedIn Profile Rob Markey LinkedIn Profile