So to Speak: The Free Speech Podcast FIRE
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So to Speak: The Free Speech Podcast takes an uncensored look at the world of free expression through the law, philosophy, and stories that define your right to free speech. Hosted by FIRE's Nico Perrino.
New episodes post every other Thursday.
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Ep. 216: Section 230 and online content moderation
Did 26 words from an American law passed in 1996 create the internet?
Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act says that interactive websites and applications cannot be held legally liable for the content posted on their sites by their users.
Without the law, it’s likely Facebook, Amazon, Reddit, Yelp, and X wouldn’t exist — at least not in their current form.
But some say the law shields large tech companies from liability for enabling, or even amplifying, harmful content.
On today’s show, we discuss Section 230, recent efforts to reform it, and new proposals for content moderation on the internet.
Marshall Van Alstyne is a professor of information systems at Boston University.
Robert Corn-Revere is FIRE’s chief counsel.
Timestamps
0:00 Intro
3:52 The origins of Section 230?
6:40 Section 230’s “forgotten provision”
13:29 User vs. platform control over moderation
23:24 Harms allegedly enabled by Section 230
40:17 Solutions
46:03 Private market for moderation
1:02:42 Case study: Hunter Biden laptop story
1:09:19 “Duty of care” standard
1:17:49 The future of Section 230
1:20:35 Outro
Show Notes
- Show Transcript
- Hearing on a Legislative Proposal to Sunset Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act (May 22. 2024)
- “Platform Revolution” by Marshall Van Alstyne
- “The Mind of the Censor and the Eye of the Beholder” by Robert Corn-Revere
- “Protocols, Not Platforms: A Technological Approach to Free Speech” by Mike Masnick
- “Sunset of Section 230 Would Force Big Tech’s Hand” By Cathy McMorris Rodgers and Frank Pallone Jr.
- “Buy This Legislation or We’ll Kill the Internet” By Christopher Cox and Ron Wyden
- “Free Speech, Platforms & The Fake News Problem” (2021) by Marshall Van Alstyne
- “Free Speech and the Fake News Problem” (2023) by Marshall Van Alstyne
- “It’s Time to Update Section 230” by Michael D. Smith and Marshall Van Alstyne
“Now It's Harvard Business Review Getting Section 230 Very, Very Wrong” by Mike Masnick
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Ep. 215: ‘Private Censorship’ with J.P. Messina
The First Amendment forbids government censorship. Private institutions, on the other hand, are generally free to restrict speech.
How should we think about private censorship and its role within a liberal society?
On today’s episode, we’re joined by J.P. Messina, an assistant professor in the philosophy department at Purdue University and the author of the new book, “Private Censorship.”
Also on the show is Aaron Terr, FIRE’s director of public advocacy.
Timestamps
0:00 Introduction
3:10 The origin story of “Private Censorship”
8:29 How does FIRE figure out what to weigh in on?
12:04 Examples of private censorship
18:24 Regulating speech at work
22:21 Regulating speech on social media platforms
30:09 Is social media essentially a public utility?
35:50 Are internet service providers essentially public utilities?
44:43 Social media vs. ISPs
51:02 Censorship on search engines
59:47 Defining illiberalism outside of government censorship
1:16:06 Outro
Show Notes
Episode transcript
Packingham v. North Carolina (2017)
Cloudflare’s announcement regarding the Daily Stormer
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Ep. 214: The Antisemitism Awareness Act
On May 1, the U.S. House of Representatives passed the Antisemitism Awareness Act by a vote of 320 to 91. Proponents of the law say it is necessary to address anti-Semitic discrimination on college campuses. Opponents argue it threatens free speech.
Who’s right?
Kenneth Stern was the lead drafter of the definition of anti-Semitism used in the act. But he said the definition was never meant to punish speech. Rather, it was drafted to help data collectors write reports.
Stern is the director of the Bard Center for the Study of Hate. His most recent book is titled, “The Conflict Over the Conflict: The Israel/Palestine Campus Debate.”
Timestamps
0:00 Introduction
04:06 Introducing Ken Stern
7:59 Can hate speech codes work?
11:13 Off-campus hate speech codes
13:33 Drafting the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance definition
21:53 How should administrators judge anti-Semitism without the IHRA definition?
27:29 Is there a rise in unlawful discrimination on campuses today?
40:20 Opposition to the Antisemitism Awareness Act
43:10 Defenses of the Antisemitism Awareness Act
51:34 Enshrinement of the IHRA definition of anti-Semitism in state laws
53:57 Is the IHRA definition internally consistent?
59:21 How will the Senate vote?
1:01:16 Outro
Show Notes
IHRA definition of anti-Semitism
The Antisemitism Awareness Act
Transcript -
Ep. 213: Campus unrest - live webinar
Host Nico Perrino joins his FIRE colleagues Will Creeley and Alex Morey to answer questions about the recent campus unrest and its First Amendment implications.
Timestamps
0:00 Introduction
0:41 What is FIRE?/campus unrest
5:44 What are the basic First Amendment principles for campus protest?
11:30 Student encampments
18:09 Exceptions to the First Amendment
29:01 Can administrators limit access to non-students/faculty?
34:13 Denying recognition to Students for Justice in Palestine
36:26 Were protesters at UT Austin doing anything illegal?
40:54 The USC valedictorian
45:09 What does “objectively offensive” mean? / Does Davis apply to colleges?
46:55 Is it illegal to protest too loudly?
50:03 What options do colleges have to moderate/address hate speech?
54:20 Does calling for genocide constitute bullying/harassment?
59:09 Wrapping up on the situation
Show Notes
“USC canceling valedictorian’s commencement speech looks like calculated censorship,” Alex Morey
“Emerson College: Conservative Student Group Investigated for Distributing ‘China Kinda Sus’ Stickers,” FIRE’s case files
“HATE: Why We Should Resist it With Free Speech, Not Censorship,” Nadine Strossen
“Defending My Enemy: American Nazis, the Skokie Case, and the Risks of Freedom,” Aryeh Neier (pdf)
“David Goldberger, lead attorney in ‘the Skokie case,’” “So to Speak” Ep. 118
Transcript -
Ep. 212: Should the First Amendment protect hate speech?
In America, hate speech is generally protected by the First Amendment.
But should it be?
Today’s guest is out with a new book, “Hate Speech is Not Free: The Case Against First Amendment Protection.”
W. Wat Hopkins is emeritus professor of communication at Virginia Tech, where he taught communication law and cyberspace law.
Transcript of Interview: https://www.thefire.org/research-learn/so-speak-podcast-transcript-should-first-amendment-protect-hate-speech
Timestamps
0:00 Introduction
5:34 Why write about hate speech?
8:50 Has the Supreme Court ruled on hate speech?
13:56 What speech falls outside First Amendment protection?
16:44 The history of the First Amendment
20:00 Fighting words and Chaplinsky v. New Hampshire (1942)
24:00 How does the Supreme Court determine what speech is protected?
35:24 Defining hate speech
38:54 Debating the value of hate speech
44:02 Defining hate speech (again)
50:30 Abuses of hate speech codes
1:00:10 Skokie
1:02:39 Current Supreme Court and hate speech
1:06:00 Outro
Show Notes
Scotland’s “Hate Crime and Public Order Act”
Matal v. Tam (2017)
Snyder v. Phelps (2011)
Brown v. Entertainment Merchants Association (2011)
United States v. Stevens (2010)
Virginia v. Black (2003)
R.A.V. v. City of St. Paul (1992)
National Socialist Party of America v. Village of Skokie (1977)
Police Department of Chicago v. Mosley (1972)
Beauharnais v. Illinois (1952)
Chaplinsky v. New Hampshire (1942)
“HATE: Why We Should Resist it With Free Speech, Not Censorship” by Nadine Strossen -
Ep. 211: Generational differences and civil liberties with Neil Howe
In late 2013, some of us at FIRE started noticing a change on college campuses. Students, who were previously the strongest constituency for free speech on campus, were turning against free speech. They began appealing to administrators more frequently for protection from different speakers and using the language of trauma and safety to justify censorship.
What changed?
Neil Howe may have an answer. He is a historian, economist, and demographer who speaks frequently on generational change. His most recent book, “The Fourth Turning is Here,” was published last year. Howe argues that history has seasonal rhythms of growth, maturation, entropy, and rebirth and that different generations take on different attributes reflecting their place in the cycle.
Joining Howe and host Nico Perrino for the conversation is FIRE President and CEO Greg Lukianoff, co-author of “The Canceling of the American Mind."
Timestamps
0:00 Introduction
6:10 Neil’s intent with his book, “Generations”
13:12 Pattern in American history
17:08 The nomad archetype
25:00 Covid and the younger generation
27:28 Do people shape events?
35:35 Gen-Xers and Millennials
41:45 The Fourth Turning
50:24 William James’ “The Moral Equivalent of War”
57:08 Are Gen-Z actually Millennials?
58:10 Dominant generations
01:06:40 How do generational cycles impact civil liberties?
01:10:57 Summary of Millennials
01:18:15 Peaceful periods lead to greater inequality
1:19:16 Outro
Show Notes
Neil Howe’s Substack, “Demography Unplugged”
Greg Lukianoff’s Substack, “The Eternally Radical Idea”
Customer Reviews
Great defenders of free speech
Free speech, due process, and academic freedom are vital to American society, and there are always powerful people (right, left, and center) willing to curtail them. The more defenders freedom has, the better, and this podcast is a great one.
Dennis D. Karpf
Incisive and absence of cant. Free speech can not override free association, free religion, and free conscience and free movement. No doubt words/thought balance is sometimes gray. Law can prevent antisemitic action/behavior. However those circumstance in reality are rare. Speech codes are not the answer. Balance is needed between competing interests that does prevent threats to Jews. Threats and harassment are not speech. However make no mistake Islamist ideology and its red/green allies seek only short term distortion of free speech to suppress behavior and suppress Jewish freedom of association, religion and conscience. The antisemitic action and incitement to violence with ultimate extermination of Jews is the goal.
Highly recommended
FIRE is the leading pro-speech organization in the US now that the ACLU has wimped out. Each episode feature thoughtful interviews, often with lawyers, pertaining to topics around free speech.