138 episodes

Life is full of difficult things, from tiny everyday disappointments to life-altering events. Everyone’s at least a little bit Not OK, something grief expert and psychotherapist Megan Devine knows from the inside out. In wide ranging, insightful, deep conversations, Megan talks with people about their often invisible losses - and what they’ve learned about being seen and supported in difficult times. 

With guests pulled from the front lines of entertainment, medicine, education, and activism, the conversations in It’s OK that You’re Not OK are funny, complex, emotional, and hopeful - maybe not your typical dinner party topics, but none of us are entirely OK, and it’s time we start talking about that.

New episodes each and every Monday, from the author of the best-selling book, It’s OK That You’re Not OK, and iHeartMedia. Find Megan online at @refugeingrief & follow the show @ItsOKPod

It’s OK That You’re Not OK with Megan Devine iHeartPodcasts

    • Health & Fitness
    • 4.8 • 193 Ratings

Life is full of difficult things, from tiny everyday disappointments to life-altering events. Everyone’s at least a little bit Not OK, something grief expert and psychotherapist Megan Devine knows from the inside out. In wide ranging, insightful, deep conversations, Megan talks with people about their often invisible losses - and what they’ve learned about being seen and supported in difficult times. 

With guests pulled from the front lines of entertainment, medicine, education, and activism, the conversations in It’s OK that You’re Not OK are funny, complex, emotional, and hopeful - maybe not your typical dinner party topics, but none of us are entirely OK, and it’s time we start talking about that.

New episodes each and every Monday, from the author of the best-selling book, It’s OK That You’re Not OK, and iHeartMedia. Find Megan online at @refugeingrief & follow the show @ItsOKPod

    More Anger Means More Joy: Part Two with Soraya Chemaly

    More Anger Means More Joy: Part Two with Soraya Chemaly

    What do we lose when we’re not allowed to be angry? 

     

    In a lot of ways, anger is more taboo than grief. They’re deeply related, as you’ll hear in this two-part episode: both grief and anger are considered “negative” emotions, things you shouldn’t feel, and definitely shouldn’t express in polite company. But what if reclaiming our anger was the way to build the world - and the relationships - we most want? All of that and more with the best selling author of Rage Becomes Her, Soraya Chemaly. 

     

    In this two-part episode we cover: 

     


    What is the right amount of anger?
    Why deciding some emotions are “good” and some are “bad” isn’t really helpful 
    What would “anger competence” or “anger literacy” look like? (and why would you want that??) 
    Why Soraya says “most grief is ambiguous grief”
    How the old split between the head (logic) and the heart (emotion) cuts us off from what we most want
    Finding your best community by embracing your anger

     

    We're re-releasing some of our favorite episodes from the first 3 seasons. This episode was originally recorded in 2023.

     

    Looking for a creative exploration of grief? Check out the best selling Writing Your Grief course here.

     

    About our guest:

    Soraya Chemaly is an award-winning writer and activist whose work focuses on the role of gender in culture, politics, religion, and media. She is the Director of the Women’s Media Center Speech Project and an advocate for women’s freedom of expression and expanded civic and political engagement. A prolific writer and speaker, her articles appear in TIME, The Verge, The Guardian, The Nation, HuffPost, and The Atlantic. Find her best selling book, Rage Becomes Her at sorayachemaly.com. Follow her on social media @sorayachemaly

     

    About Megan: 

    Psychotherapist Megan Devine is one of today’s leading experts on grief, from life-altering losses to the everyday grief that we don’t call grief. Get the best-selling book on grief in over a decade, It’s Ok that You’re Not OK, wherever you get books. Find Megan @refugeingrief

     

    Additional Resources:

    We mention Pauline Boss in this episode. If you’re not familiar with her excellent work on ambiguous loss (a term she coined in the 1970s), check out her website at ambiguousloss.com

     

    To read more about anger and how it relates to grief, check out It’s OK that You’re Not OK.

     

    If you want to explore your anger with creative prompts and exercises, check out the guided journal for grief, How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed. 

     

    Want to talk with Megan directly? Join our patreon community for live monthly Q&A grief clinics: your questions, answered. Want to speak to her privately? Apply for a 1:1 grief consultation here. 

     

    Books and resources may contain affiliate links.
    See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

    • 38 min
    Rage Becomes Her (and by “her” I mean US) with Soraya Chemaly

    Rage Becomes Her (and by “her” I mean US) with Soraya Chemaly

    What do we lose when we’re not allowed to be angry? 

     

    In a lot of ways, anger is more taboo than grief. They’re deeply related, as you’ll hear in this two-part episode: both grief and anger are considered “negative” emotions, things you shouldn’t feel, and definitely shouldn’t express in polite company. But what if reclaiming our anger was the way to build the world - and the relationships - we most want? All of that and more with the best selling author of Rage Becomes Her, Soraya Chemaly. 

     

    In this two-part episode we cover: 

     


    What is the right amount of anger?
    Why deciding some emotions are “good” and some are “bad” isn’t really helpful 
    What would “anger competence” or “anger literacy” look like? (and why would you want that??) 
    Why Soraya says “most grief is ambiguous grief”
    How the old split between the head (logic) and the heart (emotion) cuts us off from what we most want
    Finding your best community by embracing your anger

     

    We're re-releasing some of our favorite episodes from the first 3 seasons. This episode was originally recorded in 2023.

     

    Looking for a creative exploration of grief? Check out the best selling Writing Your Grief course here.

     

    About our guest:

    Soraya Chemaly is an award-winning writer and activist whose work focuses on the role of gender in culture, politics, religion, and media. She is the Director of the Women’s Media Center Speech Project and an advocate for women’s freedom of expression and expanded civic and political engagement. A prolific writer and speaker, her articles appear in TIME, The Verge, The Guardian, The Nation, HuffPost, and The Atlantic. Find her best selling book, Rage Becomes Her at sorayachemaly.com. Follow her on social media @sorayachemaly

     

    About Megan: 

    Psychotherapist Megan Devine is one of today’s leading experts on grief, from life-altering losses to the everyday grief that we don’t call grief. Get the best-selling book on grief in over a decade, It’s Ok that You’re Not OK, wherever you get books. Find Megan @refugeingrief

     

    Additional Resources:

    We mention Pauline Boss in this episode. If you’re not familiar with her excellent work on ambiguous loss (a term she coined in the 1970s), check out her website at ambiguousloss.com

     

    To read more about anger and how it relates to grief, check out It’s OK that You’re Not OK.

     

    If you want to explore your anger with creative prompts and exercises, check out the guided journal for grief, How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed. 

     

    Want to talk with Megan directly? Join our patreon community for live monthly Q&A grief clinics: your questions, answered. Want to speak to her privately? Apply for a 1:1 grief consultation here. 

     

    Books and resources may contain affiliate links.
    See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

    • 42 min
    Do You Have to Be Friends with Everyone? with Dr. Alexandra Solomon (Part Two)

    Do You Have to Be Friends with Everyone? with Dr. Alexandra Solomon (Part Two)

    What should you do if someone wants to be friends, but you’re not into it? Boundaries are part of all human relationships, but they are TRICKY. 

     

    Welcome to part two of our show about boundaries - how to make them, how to keep them, and sometimes, how to breach them - with special guest Dr. Alexandra Solomon, host of Reimagining Love.

    In this episode we cover:

     


    Starting over in a new place with new friends 
    Why we so often confuse boundaries with being mean or rude
    The power of social observation to gather data (Megan’s go-to move!) 
    Scripts for saying “no thank you” to a potential friendship when that feels both mean and necessary

     

    We're re-releasing some of our favorite episodes from the first 3 seasons. This episode was originally recorded in 2022.

     

    Looking for a creative exploration of grief? Check out the best selling Writing Your Grief course here.

     

    About our guest:

    Dr Alexandra Solomon is one of the most trusted voices in the world of relationships. She’s a licensed clinical psychologist at The Family Institute at Northwestern University  and the author of two bestselling books: Loving Bravely and Taking Sexy Back. 

     

    You might know her from her popular instagram channel @dr.alexandra.solomon, or from her podcast, Reimagining Love. Find her at dralexandrasolomon.com 

     

    About Megan: 

    Psychotherapist Megan Devine is one of today’s leading experts on grief, from life-altering losses to the everyday grief that we don’t call grief. Get the best-selling book on grief in over a decade, It’s Ok that You’re Not OK, wherever you get books. Find Megan @refugeingrief

     

    Additional Resources:

    Want to train with Dr. Solomon? Check out her current training courses at dralexandrasolomon.com

     

    Want to talk with Megan directly? Join our patreon community for live monthly Q&A grief clinics: your questions, answered. Want to speak to her privately? Apply for a 1:1 grief consultation here. 

     

    Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s OK That You're Not OK and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed

    Books and resources may contain affiliate links.

     

    Follow our show on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and TikTok @refugeingrief and @itsokpod on TikTok.

    For more information, including clinical training and consulting and to share your thoughts, visit us at refugeingrief.com
    See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

    • 24 min
    Tricky Boundaries & Skillful Negotiation with Dr. Alexandra Solomon (Part One)

    Tricky Boundaries & Skillful Negotiation with Dr. Alexandra Solomon (Part One)

    What do you do when someone cuts you out of their life? How do you back away slowly from someone you really don’t want to be around? Boundaries are part of all human relationships, but they are TRICKY. 

     

    This week on It’s OK, part one of our show about boundaries - how to make them, how to keep them, and sometimes, how to breach them - with special guest Dr. Alexandra Solomon, host of Reimagining Love.

    In this episode we cover:

     


    Why relational self-awareness is the key to all good relationships
    Can step-parents and adult step-kids get along after a loss in the family? 
    How to negotiate the relationship you want when the other people maybe don’t want you around
    The difference between “letting go of outcome” and setting yourself up for success

     

    We're re-releasing some of our favorite episodes from the first 3 seasons. This episode was originally recorded in 2022.

     

    Looking for a creative exploration of grief? Check out the best selling Writing Your Grief course here.

     

    About our guest:

    Dr Alexandra Solomon is one of the most trusted voices in the world of relationships. She’s a licensed clinical psychologist at The Family Institute at Northwestern University  and the author of two bestselling books: Loving Bravely and Taking Sexy Back. 

     

    You might know her from her popular instagram channel @dr.alexandra.solomon, or from her podcast, Reimagining Love. Find her at dralexandrasolomon.com

     

    About Megan: 

    Psychotherapist Megan Devine is one of today’s leading experts on grief, from life-altering losses to the everyday grief that we don’t call grief. Get the best-selling book on grief in over a decade, It’s Ok that You’re Not OK, wherever you get books. Find Megan @refugeingrief

     

    Additional Resources:

    Want to train with Dr. Solomon? Check out her current training courses at dralexandrasolomon.com

     

    Want to talk with Megan directly? Join our patreon community for live monthly Q&A grief clinics: your questions, answered. Want to speak to her privately? Apply for a 1:1 grief consultation here. 

     

    Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s OK That You're Not OK and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed

    Books and resources may contain affiliate links.

     

    Follow our show on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and TikTok @refugeingrief and @itsokpod on TikTok.

    For more information, including clinical training and consulting and to share your thoughts, visit us at refugeingrief.com
    See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

    • 27 min
    Complex PTSD and the Art of Survival with Author Stephanie Foo

    Complex PTSD and the Art of Survival with Author Stephanie Foo

    If you’ve lived through horrific trauma or abuse, is it really fair of us to say that the ways you’ve learned to cope are “bad,” or to use clinical speak, “maladaptive”? 

    This week on It’s OK, Stephanie Foo, author of What My Bones Know, joins me to talk about complex PTSD and the ways we pathologize human responses to trauma. You’ll also hear how claiming your own messy, complex coping mechanisms can help you build a community that sees you and loves you. 

    If you’re haunted by any type of trauma, or know someone who is, this conversation is a great introduction to complex PTSD, and the work of survivorship. 

     

    In this episode we cover: 

     


    Why pretending to be a high-performing badass is maybe not in your best interest
    How storytelling can make you feel less freakish and alone
    The real problem with most books on trauma and C-PTSD

     

    We're re-releasing some of our favorite episodes from the first 3 seasons. This episode was originally recorded in 2022.

     

    Looking for a creative exploration of grief? Check out the best selling Writing Your Grief course here.

     

    About our guest:

    Stephanie Foo is a C-PTSD survivor, writer, and radio producer, most recently for This American Life. Her work has aired on Snap Judgment, Reply All, 99% Invisible, and Radiolab. A noted speaker and instructor, she has taught at Columbia University and has spoken at venues from Sundance Film Festival to the Missouri Department of Mental Health. She lives in New York City with her husband.

     

    Find her at stephaniefoo.me and on Instagram @foofoofoo

     

    About Megan: 

    Psychotherapist Megan Devine is one of today’s leading experts on grief, from life-altering losses to the everyday grief that we don’t call grief. Get the best-selling book on grief in over a decade, It’s Ok that You’re Not OK, wherever you get books. Find Megan @refugeingrief

     

    Additional Resources:

    Read Stephanie’s book, What My Bones Know: A Memoir of Healing from Complex Trauma

     

    Want to talk with Megan directly? Join our patreon community for live monthly Q&A grief clinics: your questions, answered. Want to speak to her privately? Apply for a 1:1 grief consultation here. 

     

    Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s OK That You're Not OK and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed

    Books and resources may contain affiliate links.

    Follow our show on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and TikTok @refugeingrief and @itsokpod on TikTok.

    For more information, including clinical training and consulting and to share your thoughts, visit us at refugeingrief.com

    Listen to previous episodes of It’s OK that You’re Not OK!
    See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

    • 43 min
    Organized Grief = Social Movements with Malkia Devich-Cyril

    Organized Grief = Social Movements with Malkia Devich-Cyril

    There’s no denying the grief that permeates everyday life. It’s in the news, in our communities, and in our personal lives. The thing is - we never really talk about how much this grief connects us. 

    This episode is STUNNING. It has gifts for everyone - whether you’re grieving a personal loss or you’re an activist of any kind. It was recorded in the summer of 2023, so you will not hear us mention P*lestine - you can bet if we’d recorded it now, that grief, and that need for belonging, would be present.

    If you ARE an activist or organizer, you need to hear what Malkia has to say about our narrative strategies, and what it really takes to make change happen. If we learn to lean into that grief together, we might really create the beautiful world we all long for.

    Malkia Devich-Cyril knows grief from the inside out. They grew up knowing their mom would die of her illness. They grew up immersed in the grief that is endemic to being Black in America. And they cared for their wife, comedian Alana Devich-Cyril, through her death in 2018.

     

    In this episode we cover: 

     


    The difference between sorrow and grief
    How “feelings aren’t facts” relates to grief
    Is it normal to feel like you failed to keep someone alive? 
    Why do narrative strategists (aka: activists) need to understand grief? 
    Are book bans a form of grief? (spoiler: yes, but maybe not for the reasons you think)



    Looking for a creative exploration of grief? Check out the best selling Writing Your Grief course here.



    Related episodes: 

    Rage Becomes Her (and by “her” I mean US) with Soraya Chemaly

    Collective Grief and Communal Joy: with Baratunde Thurston

    Wonder in an Age of Violence: Valarie Kaur & See No Stranger



    About our guest:

    Malkia Devich-Cyril is an activist, writer and public speaker on issues of digital rights, narrative power, Black liberation and collective grief. They are also the founding and former Executive Director of MediaJustice. Their writing has appeared in publications like Politico, Motherboard, Essence Magazine, The Atlantic, and three documentary films including the Oscar nominated 13th. Find them at @radical_loss Instagram.

     

    About Megan: 

    Psychotherapist Megan Devine is one of today’s leading experts on grief, from life-altering losses to the everyday grief that we don’t call grief. Get the best-selling book on grief in over a decade, It’s Ok that You’re Not OK, wherever you get books. Find Megan @refugeingrief

     

    Additional resources:

    Read “The Antidote to Authoritarianism” from The Atlantic

     

    Read Grief Belongs in Social Movements: We Embrace it? 

    Want to talk with Megan directly? Join our patreon community for live monthly Q&A grief clinics: your questions, answered. Want to speak to her privately? Apply for a 1:1 grief consultation here. 

     

    Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s OK That You're Not OK and How to Carry What Can’t Be Fixed

     

    Books and resources may contain affiliate links.
    See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

    • 52 min

Customer Reviews

4.8 out of 5
193 Ratings

193 Ratings

alexsassafras929 ,

Best grief podcast

Listening to this podcast is my moment of respite each week as I navigate the loss of my mom and brother. The conversations she has with her guests are thoughtful and nuanced. Somehow she manages to find the right language to describe all of what encompasses grief and loss. Read her book, too! Or listen on Audible, since reading is so difficult when you’re in the throes of grief.

Lisrog ,

Excellent Grief Suuport

My daughter passed last year. You have helped me sit with my grief.

Cara_Noel ,

Gratitude from a grief pilgrim

Thank you, Megan, for speaking to my whole being at the right time and in a way that knits together the fragments I’ve held onto for so long. I deeply appreciate the guests you bring us and thoughtful conversations you hold with them. I cannot wait to begin your six-month training program in a couple of weeks!! 🥰
Cara D

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