Cleaning Up: Leadership in an Age of Climate Change

Michael Liebreich, Bryony Worthington
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Once a week, Michael Liebreich and Bryony Worthington have a conversation with a leader in clean energy, mobility, climate finance or sustainable development. Informative, inspiring and fun!

  1. The Mother of All Energy Crises | Ep253: Fatih Birol

    1 DAY AGO

    The Mother of All Energy Crises | Ep253: Fatih Birol

    The news agenda this year has been entirely dominated by energy related stories, whether it's the war in Europe being pursued by Russia — formerly Europe's most significant energy provider — the U.S. capturing the head of state of Venezuela — which has some of the biggest oil reserves in the world — or the ongoing attack by Israel and the U.S. on Iran and all its ramifications. But there is also another story, which is the long term rift between the U.S. and the rest of the world about whether and how fast we should be addressing climate change.   This week on Cleaning Up, Michael Liebreich is joined by Dr Fatih Birol, executive director of the International Energy Agency, for his third appearance on the podcast. He discusses the International Energy Agency’s integral role in trying to steer the world through the current energy crisis, how he sees the global energy system change in response to the crisis, and how his organisation is facing up to criticism from the US over its net-zero scenarios. Fatih and Michael discuss: Why the current crisis could surpass the oil shocks of the 1970s How the International Energy Agency is helping stabilize global markets   Efficiency measures and the need to reopen the Strait of Hormuz Why solar, batteries, and nuclear may surge amid the chaos  Why countries are looking toward coal to fill the gap Whether energy security is now overtaking climate as the top priority The growing divide between the U.S. and global institutions on climate policy And why Birol insists: “Data always wins.” As Executive Director of the International Energy Agency, Fatih has positioned the Agency at the centre of global efforts to advance a secure, affordable, and sustainable energy system. Dr Birol joined the IEA in the mid-1990s and progressed from junior analyst to Chief Economist, where he oversaw the flagship World Energy Outlook.  He has been included in the TIME100 list of the world’s most influential figures and recognised by Forbes as one of the world’s most influential figures in energy. He chairs the World Economic Forum’s Energy Advisory Board and is an honorary life member of Galatasaray Football Club. This episode was recorded on March 19, 2026. Leadership Circle: Cleaning Up is proud to be supported by its Leadership Circle. The members are Actis, Alcazar Energy, Arup, Copenhagen Infrastructure Partners, Cygnum Capital, Davidson Kempner, EcoPragma Capital, EDP, Eurelectric, the Gilardini Foundation, KKR, Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, Schneider Electric, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information about the Leadership Circle, visit cleaningup.live Links and more: The International Energy Agency: https://www.iea.org/ Sheltering from Oil Shocks report: https://www.iea.org/reports/sheltering-from-oil-shocks Fatih’s LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/fatih-birol/ The World Energy Outlook 2025: https://www.iea.org/reports/world-energy-outlook-2025 Fatih’s past appearance on Cleaning Up The World's Preeminent Energy Economist - Ep133: Fatih Birol: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xc7ItnBRqXI Setting the World's Energy Agenda - Ep28: Fatih Birol – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hW5aPlRI44I

    28 min
  2. ⁠Energy Shocks, Inflation & Risk: How a Central Bank Responds to Crisis | Ep252: Pierre Wunsch

    8 APR

    ⁠Energy Shocks, Inflation & Risk: How a Central Bank Responds to Crisis | Ep252: Pierre Wunsch

    How should a central bank respond to energy shocks? Will high oil and gas prices bolster the uptake of renewables? And what is the true cost of net zero 2050? This week on Cleaning Up, host Michael Liebreich sits down with Pierre Wunsch, Governor of the National Bank of Belgium and member of the European Central Bank’s governing council, for a candid, behind-the-scenes discussion about how central banks should and can respond to inflation, energy volatility, and climate transition. From the recent surge in oil and gas prices to the lessons learned from post-COVID inflation, Wunsch explains why central banks may have “got it wrong” during the Russia-Ukraine energy shock, and how they’re rethinking their response to supply shocks. Michael and Pierre dive into: The costs of net zero, and why a one-size fits all approach to decarbonisation isn’t working. Whether European economies can absorb the costs transition without losing competitiveness Why “transitory inflation” didn’t stay transitory during the Russia-Ukraine war The risk of political backlash and policy instability Why industry, not households, is the hardest part of decarbonisation for Europe The gap between climate ambition and credible policy tools. Leadership Circle: Cleaning Up is proud to be supported by its Leadership Circle. The members are Actis, Alcazar Energy, Arup, Copenhagen Infrastructure Partners, Cygnum Capital, Davidson Kempner, Ecopragma Capital, EDP, Eurelectric, the Gilardini Foundation, KKR, Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, Schneider Electric, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information about the Leadership Circle, visit cleaningup.live Links and more: Pierre Wunsch bio: https://www.nbb.be/en/cv/pierre-wunsch National Bank of Belgium’s Research on Climate: https://www.nbb.be/en/publications-research/publications/topics/climate How China Became a Green Finance Superpower - Ep160: Dr. Ma Jun: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fu6giWzTxAY The 130 Trillion-Dollar Man - Ep84: Mark Carney: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HtA5ufMzKAU

    1hr 8min
  3. Can We Cool The Planet, And Should We Try? | Ep251: Ricken Patel

    1 APR

    Can We Cool The Planet, And Should We Try? | Ep251: Ricken Patel

    What happens if we’re underestimating the speed and scale of climate risk? This week on Cleaning Up, Bryony Worthington sits down with Ricken Patel, Principal at Climate Hub & Founder of activist network Avaaz, to explore how to build successful climate movements, and the case for research into geoengineering. Ricken argues that companies have been accidentally geoengineering since the turn of the Industrial Revolution, as a byproduct of their pollution, and says ‘it’s crazy’ that research into deliberate forms of geoengineering isn’t being allowed. Ricken has a long history as a campaigner and activist working in the climate and democracy spaces. He founded Avaaz, an online activism platform, and led successful campaigns around the Paris Agreement and beyond.  He was voted "Ultimate Gamechanger in Politics" by the Huffington Post, listed among the world's top 100 thinkers by Foreign Policy, and named a Young Global Leader by the World Economic Forum. Patel studied Philosophy, Politics and Economics at Oxford, graduating first in his class, and holds a Master's from Harvard's Kennedy School of Government. He went on to live and work on conflict resolution and civilian protection in Sierra Leone, Liberia, Sudan, and Afghanistan for organizations including the International Crisis Group. Together, Bryony and Ricken dive into: Why climate risks may be far greater than current models suggest The cooling effects we’re losing as we clamp down on pollution The  case for researching geoengineering How democracy, truth, and climate are deeply intertwined And how to build a successful movement around climate change. Leadership Circle: Cleaning Up is proud to be supported by its Leadership Circle. The members are Actis, Alcazar Energy, Arup, Copenhagen Infrastructure Partners, Cygnum Capital, Davidson Kempner, Ecopragma Capital, EDP, Eurelectric, the Gilardini Foundation, KKR, Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, Schneider Electric, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information about the Leadership Circle, visit cleaningup.live Links and more: Ricken’s website: https://www.rickenpatel.net/ The Climate Hub: https://www.cc-hub.org The State of the Climate 2026 | Ep242: Zeke Hausfather: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EzySrSD8vz8 Parasol Lost: https://actuaries.org.uk/news-and-media-releases/news-articles/2026/jan/14-jan-26-parasol-lost-recovery-plan-needed/

    1hr 8min
  4. Heavy Engineering Solutions for High-Emission Problems | Ep250: Emmanouil Kakaras

    25 MAR

    Heavy Engineering Solutions for High-Emission Problems | Ep250: Emmanouil Kakaras

    This week on Cleaning Up, Michael Liebreich is joined by Emmanouil Kakaras, engineer, academic, and Senior Advisor at Mitsubishi Heavy Industries EMEA, for a grounded, technical conversation about the intersection of emissions and engineering: gas turbines pushing the limits of thermodynamics, the trade-offs between hydrogen, ammonia, and synthetic fuels, and why carbon capture keeps coming back into the conversation. Kakaras draws on decades in both academia and industry to explain how decisions actually get made inside large engineering companies, and why the energy transition isn’t about picking a single “winner,” but deploying a mix of solutions at scale. Leadership Circle: Cleaning Up is proud to be supported by its Leadership Circle. The members are Actis, Alcazar Energy, Arup, Copenhagen Infrastructure Partners, Cygnum Capital, Davidson Kempner, Ecopragma Capital, EDP, Eurelectric, the Gilardini Foundation, KKR, Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, Schneider Electric, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information about the Leadership Circle, visit cleaningup.live Links and more: Mitsubishi Heavy Industries: https://www.mhi.com/ Iron-Air Man - Ep144: Mateo Jaramillo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ih0gBGCkROM Cracking the Geothermal Code - Ep58: John Redfern: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MU8TDupVvjM The Dane who Harnessed the Wind - Ep139: Henrik Stiesdal: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rjuZ_aCsFQ Ep121: Prof. Rob Miller "Jet-Zero Hero": https://youtu.be/zqMHiyyWlZo Padeswood CCS: Decarbonizing cement production in the UK https://padeswoodccs.co.uk   Primetals: A decade of pioneering green steel solutions Large Heat Pumps and the future of district heating https://spectra.mhi.com/energy-transition/the-untapped-potential-of-district-heating The geothermal plant behind Europe’s lithium push https://spectra.mhi.com/energy-transition/the-geothermal-plant-behind-europes-lithium-push What role will ‘new nuclear’ play in the energy transition? https://spectra.mhi.com/energy-transition/what-role-will-new-nuclear-play-in-the-energy-transition

    1hr 11min
  5. Can We Stop Data Centres Breaking The Grid? Ep249: Varun Sivaram & Steve Smith

    19 MAR

    Can We Stop Data Centres Breaking The Grid? Ep249: Varun Sivaram & Steve Smith

    This week on Cleaning Up, host Michael Liebreich sits down with Varun Sivaram and Steve Smith to explore one of the most urgent, and overlooked, challenges of the AI revolution: how to power it without breaking the grid. As AI demand explodes, hyperscale data centres are emerging as massive, inflexible loads, rivaling entire cities. But do they have to be a burden on the grid? This conversation dives into a groundbreaking trial led by Emerald AI in partnership with National Grid and NVIDIA—demonstrating that data centres can dynamically adjust their power consumption in real time using software. Key insights include: How AI data centres could reduce grid stress instead of increasing it The concept of “flexible demand” and why it’s a game changer for AI data centres Real-world trial results Why “speed to power” matters more than cheap electricity in the AI race How software, not infrastructure, could help unlock billions in grid capacity The hidden flexibility inside AI workloads (and why not all compute is equal) From kettle spikes during football matches to lightning strikes on the grid, this episode reveals how intelligent systems can respond in seconds, turning a looming energy crisis into a massive opportunity. Leadership Circle: Cleaning Up is proud to be supported by its Leadership Circle. The members are Actis, Alcazar Energy, Arup, Copenhagen Infrastructure Partners, Cygnum Capital, Davidson Kempner, Ecopragma Capital, EDP, Euroelectric, the Gilardini Foundation, KKR, Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, Schneider Electric, SDCL and Wärtsilä. Read more:  The Emerald AI/National Grid white paper: https://www.ngpartners.com/stories/emerald-ai-whitepaper The $60 Billion Plan For Europe’s Largest AI Data Centre | Ep235: Robert Dunn: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=juAyLAUmU3w

    1hr 6min
  6. Are Fossil Fuel Cars About to Have Their Kodak Moment? Ep248: Fiona Howarth

    11 MAR

    Are Fossil Fuel Cars About to Have Their Kodak Moment? Ep248: Fiona Howarth

    What happens when millions of electric cars become part of the energy grid? And could the key to cheaper, cleaner power already be sitting in your driveway? And why are so many automakers pushing back against EV targets?  This week on Cleaning Up, host Bryony Worthington speaks with Fiona Howarth, founder of Octopus Electric Vehicles, about the rapid transformation of the global car industry and the powerful role electric vehicles are beginning to play in the energy system. From her early fascination with clean energy to building one of the UK’s most innovative EV businesses within Octopus Energy, Fiona shares the inside story of how electric mobility moved from niche curiosity to mainstream disruption. She explains why falling battery costs, bold policy like the UK’s ZEV mandate, and fierce competition from Chinese manufacturers such as BYD are accelerating the transition faster than many expected.  The conversation explores how EVs are evolving beyond transportation. With vehicle-to-grid technology, cars could become distributed batteries: storing renewable power, stabilising the grid, and even providing drivers with free electricity for their journeys. It’s a vision that could reshape both the energy market and the economics of driving.  But as some companies race ahead, some traditional automakers are pushing back, asking for slower timelines. Fiona argues that the real risk isn’t moving too fast, it’s backing the wrong players in a historic technological shift.  Leadership Circle:  Cleaning Up is supported by the Leadership Circle, and its founding members: Actis, Alcazar Energy, Davidson Kempner, EcoPragma Capital, EDP, Eurelectric, the Gilardini Foundation, KKR, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, Schneider Electric, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information on the Leadership Circle, please visit https://www.cleaningup.live.  Links and more:  Octopus EVs website: https://octopusev.com/  Cleaning Up interview with Greg Jackson, CEO of Octopus: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gl-cRh35Hm4  Earth Set Podcast: https://www.youtube.com/@TheEarthSetPodcast

    1hr 10min
  7. Iran Will Reshape Oil, Gas & Clean Energy For Years To Come | Bryony Worthington & Michael Liebreich

    6 MAR ·  BONUS

    Iran Will Reshape Oil, Gas & Clean Energy For Years To Come | Bryony Worthington & Michael Liebreich

    Bryony Worthington and Michael Liebreich give their analysis of the impact of the conflict in Iran on global energy markets. How will it impact the Middle East, Europe, Asia, the US, and will it force countries back to coal, or accelerate the clean energy transition?  This episode was recorded Thursday March 5.  Leadership Circle:  Cleaning Up is supported by the Leadership Circle, and its founding members: Actis, Alcazar Energy, Davidson Kempner, EcoPragma Capital, EDP, Eurelectric, the Gilardini Foundation, KKR, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, Schneider Electric, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information on the Leadership Circle, please visit https://www.cleaningup.live.

    53 min
  8. ⁠⁠How To Build Quickly In An Era of Fossil Fuel Shocks | Ep247: Hilde Tonne

    4 MAR

    ⁠⁠How To Build Quickly In An Era of Fossil Fuel Shocks | Ep247: Hilde Tonne

    How can we build out clean energy and infrastructure faster? Is Europe engineering its way to resilience, or pricing itself out of competitiveness? And can we redesign the entire system fast enough to keep up with AI, electrification and rising demand?  This week on Cleaning Up, Michael Liebreich sits down with Hilde Tonne, Chair of Arup and former CEO of Statnett, to explore the hard realities behind the energy transition. From offshore wind and nuclear to grid bottlenecks and data centre demand, Hilde brings a uniquely systems-level perspective shaped by decades leading infrastructure transformation across telecoms, energy and engineering.  They dive into:  Why grid investment, not generation, may be Europe’s biggest constraint  Whether hyperscaler AI companies should foot the bill for massive grid upgrades  The hidden bottlenecks in regulation, permitting and procurement • How ‘total design’ thinking can cut carbon by 40% before construction even begins  Whether electrification makes Europe more resilient, or more exposed  Hilde argues that this transition is no longer just about climate. It’s about security, competitiveness, affordability and economic growth. But achieving it will require rethinking regulation, redesigning infrastructure and the bureaucracy around it, and aligning public and private capital at unprecedented scale.  Leadership Circle:  Cleaning Up is supported by the Leadership Circle, and its founding members: Actis, Alcazar Energy, Davidson Kempner, EcoPragma Capital, EDP, Eurelectric, the Gilardini Foundation, KKR, National Grid, Octopus Energy, Quadrature Climate Foundation, Schneider Electric, SDCL and Wärtsilä. For more information on the Leadership Circle, please visit https://www.cleaningup.live.  Links and more:  Arup’s website: https://www.arup.com/  Inside Europe’s Largest Data Centre: https://youtu.be/juAyLAUmU3w

    54 min
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Once a week, Michael Liebreich and Bryony Worthington have a conversation with a leader in clean energy, mobility, climate finance or sustainable development. Informative, inspiring and fun!

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