What is cybernetics, and why does it matter now than ever? In this episode, Jen and Producer Nico sit down with Dr Amy McLennan, a medical anthropologist and systems thinker at ANU School of Cybernetics, for a conversation about cybernetics, leadership, and why the smartest way to understand technology is to stop treating it like a standalone thing. Cybernetics helps us look at tech feedback loops, relationships, and assumptions that shape what happens next. Amy explains why tech is really a systems enabler; and why the real work is in understanding the people, intentions, and power dynamics around it. From a speculative factory called Frank, to the egg oversupply during COVID, this episode shows how small examples can reveal big truths about how systems behave when the world changes fast. You’ll also hear why binary thinking gets us nowhere, why trust needs to be earned, and why the most useful leadership questions are the ones that surface what’s missing, what’s assumed, and what might break when the system is under pressure. For anyone leading teams, shaping culture, or making decisions in a complex environment, this one is a smart place to start. If you love this episode, subscribe, leave a star rating, and give us a quick review. It helps more people find the show and supports our mission to share stories from leaders shaping tomorrow’s health, tech, and inclusion... like Amy McLennan, Victor Dominello, Cindy Gallop, Ida Tin and more. Find out more about the books, people, and ideas in this episode Frank Makes a Factory by Josh Noble and Simona Dango: A piece of speculative fiction Amy uses to show how systems can be shaped by hidden assumptions.Invisible Women: Data Bias in a World Designed for Men by (absolute icon) Caroline Criado Perez: referenced by Jen in the discussion about women being left out of data and design.American Sirens by Kevin Hazzard: the book Amy mentions about the Freedom House Ambulance Service and the roots of modern emergency medicine.Sir Ken Robinson: Jen's reference (and one of her heroes) in the discussion about education systems, creativity, and industrial style thinking.Clue and Ida Tin: Jen mentions them as an example of women’s health tech that is thoughtful about data and privacy. (You can hear Ida Tin in Season One of Flip the Focus, she's incredible.)David Ogilvy: Jen references as an example of starting from human insight.Watson: Producer Nico mentions this in the AI history discussion as part of the longer arc of machine learning and pattern recognition.