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Season 1, Episode 15

Aftermath

Five days after resigning as lead pastor of Mars Hill Church, Mark Driscoll was once again in front of a crowd—this time, a packed conference of pastors who offered him a standing ovation in support. It only took 474 days for him to announce he was planting a new church in Scottsdale, Arizona. But while Driscoll wielded his own force of personality to get as much distance from Mars Hill as possible, life in Seattle was a different story. A confused and hurting church was displaced, hundreds of people were out of their jobs, and the fiercest critics of the church practically threw a party. In our series finale, we follow a few of those threads, which led some people to new ministries, others to new careers, and still others out of the church altogether. We’ll revisit the legacy of Driscoll’s teaching on gender, and we’ll ask whether or not he really preached good news and freedom. We’ll also look for the presence of Christ, working in surprising and unseen ways to bring beauty out of the ashes of what was once Mars Hill Church. As we end 2021, we’d love to invite you to join us as we continue to try to tell stories like this. Subscriptions are a great way to do that, and we’d love if you considered us with your end-of-year giving. “The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill” is a production of Christianity Today Executive produced by Erik Petrik Produced, written, and edited by Mike Cosper Joy Beth Smith is our associate producer. Music and sound design by Kate Siefker and Mike Cosper Our theme song for this finale is “Resplendent” by Bill Mallonee and the Vigilantes of Love. The closing song this week is “All My Favorite People” by Over the Rhine. Special thanks to Ben Vandermeer Graphic design by Bryan Todd Social media by Kara Bettis and Morgan Lee Editorial consulting by Andrea Palpant Dilley CT’s Editor in Chief is Timothy Dalrymple. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

S1, E15

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2h 36m
Season 1, Episode 19

Bonus Episode: A Conversation with Tim Keller

Bonus Episode: A Conversation With Tim Keller Mike Cosper sits down with Tim Keller for reflections on leadership, the troubles with networks, and the essential need for communion with God. Tim Keller moved to New York City in 1989 to plant Redeemer Presbyterian Church. In the three decades since, he’s become one of the most influential voices in American evangelicalism. Several of his books have become bestsellers. City to City, the church planting network he co-founded, has planted more than 800 churches. He also co-founded The Gospel Coalition (TGC), an alliance of pastors and theologians with a shared theological vision. Today, TGC hosts events around the world, draws thousands to its national conferences, and publishes resources online that serve millions of readers, viewers, and listeners. In this conversation, Keller reflects on the challenges of movements, denominations, and networks, as well as his connections with Mark Driscoll, both at the Spanish River Church Network and in The Gospel Coalition. He talks about the limits of institutions, as well as the limits of accountability, and how the only reliable way to guard your heart in ministry is a wholehearted commitment to the pursuit of God in prayer. This conversation was recorded in early May, 2022. “The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill” is a production of Christianity Today Executive Producer: Erik Petrik Producer, Writer, Host, and Mix Engineer: Mike Cosper Editor: TJ Hester Associate Producers: Joy Beth Smith and Azurae Phelps Music and Sound Design: Kate Siefker Graphic Design: Bryan Todd Social Media: Kate Lucky Editor in Chief: Timothy Dalrymple Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

S1, E19

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1hr 5min
18/11/2024

A Listener Q&A with Steve and Lisa Cuss

How can Christians know if they are managing their relationships in a healthy way? What does it look like to treat people with mental health disorders lovingly and respectfully? When should parents of young adults speak up, and when should they let their children learn on their own? These are the types of inquiries that you, listeners of Being Human, have shared with us. Listen as the Cusses answer: What are family systems theory and internal family systems theory, and how do they relate to faith? How can Christians discern between healthy, gospel-based differentiation of self and becoming detached or cynical? How can leaders operate so that those around them can air their differences without dumping all their projections onto the leader? What does it look like to navigate settings where an individual’s mental health struggle is setting the tone for a group? Since most well-meaning laypeople are not trained therapists, what is the church’s role in dealing with mental illness? What are some words of wisdom for parents whose children will soon exit their teen years and enter young adulthood? Resources mentioned in this episode include: Bowen family systems theory Internal family systems theory A Failure of Nerve: Leadership in the Age of the Quick Fix by Edwin H. Friedman Borderline personality disorder (BPD) “Introducing ‘Being Human with Steve Cuss’” Managing Leadership Anxiety: Yours and Theirs by Steve Cuss The Expectation Gap: The Tiny, Vast Space between Our Beliefs & Experience of God by Steve Cuss Capable Life Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

18/11/2024

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34 min
Season 1, Episode 10

Demon Hunting

We are people built for wonder, spiritual creatures looking for spiritual footholds in a culture often devoid of belief in the supernatural. We long for miracles -- the defeat of sin and shame, displays of God’s power transforming our deepest pain. For some who attended Mars Hill, the instinct toward astonishment led them to Mark Driscoll’s charismatic deliverance ministry. In a world where belief is so often hard to come by, Mark claimed to have faith strong enough to move mountains and, literally, to cast out demons. In this episode of The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill, host Mike Cosper asks the piercing question, “Where’s the line between the hand of God and a charismatic leader?” How do we know when our craving for astonishment is being manipulated? When do we accept the claims of someone speaking on God’s behalf? Using the lesser known Mars Hill “demon trials” as a backdrop, Cosper explores the Pentecostal origins of Driscoll’s deliverance ministry, examines the extra biblical rules that governed Mars Hill spiritual warfare, and considers our longing to hear from God and see him move in our midst. “The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill” is a production of Christianity Today Executive Producer: Erik Petrik Producer, Writer, Editor, and Host: Mike Cosper Associate Producer: Joy Beth Smith Music, Sound Design, and Mix Engineer: Kate Siefker Graphic Design: Bryan Todd Social Media: Nicole Shanks Editorial Consultant: Andrea Palpant Dilley Editor in Chief: Timothy Dalrymple Special thanks to Ben Vandermeer Theme song: “Sticks and Stones” by Kings Kaleidoscope Closing song: “Time is a Lion” by Joe Henry Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

S1, E10

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1hr 4min
Season 1, Episode 8

Bonus Episode: I Kissed Christianity Goodbye

A Bonus Episode of The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill Love it or hate it, if you grew up in a youth group after 1997, you probably had to reckon with Joshua Harris’s I Kissed Dating Goodbye, his treatise on dating and courtship. The book sold millions and made him, in Collin Hansen’s terms, an “evangelical boy wonder.”At 29 years old he became the lead pastor of a Maryland megachurch and a rising star in Sovereign Grace Ministries. But when that movement was torn apart by controversy, conflict, and accusations of a systemic cover-up of child abuse, he found himself reeling, unsure of his calling and convictions. He left ministry in 2015, and in 2019, announced that he no longer identified as a Christian. In this bonus episode of The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill, we’ll explore Josh’s story as a contemporary of Mark Driscoll, someone who was his polar opposite in temperament, and who’s struggles in ministry led to a divergent outcome. We’ll talk about faith, doubt, and celebrity, and discuss how Christians might think about their own doubts and deconstruction, recognizing them as a normal part of the Christian life. Subscriptions to CT are one of the best ways to support this kind of journalism. If you want to help us continue doing this kind of work, consider joining today at orderct.com/marshill. “The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill” is a production of Christianity Today Executive Producer: Erik Petrik Producer, Writer, Editor, and Host: Mike Cosper Associate Producer: Joy Beth Smith Music and Sound Design: Kate Siefker and Mike Cosper Mix Engineer: Mike Cosper Graphic Design: Bryan Todd Social Media: Nicole Shanks Editorial Consultant: Andrea Palpant Dilley Editor in Chief: Timothy Dalrymple Theme song: “Sticks and Stones” by Kings Kaleidoscope Closing song: “Spirit (Keep On)” by Jeremy Casella Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

S1, E8

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1hr 5min
Season 1, Episode 13

Bonus Episode: Boca Raton's Church Planting O.G.

Contrary to Mars Hill lore, Mark Driscoll didn’t plant his church alone. Though he prized the image of a solo, entrepreneurial pastor, Driscoll found early success thanks to two co-planters, a sending church, and a network of support. And three thousand miles away in Boca Raton, Florida, the concept of the Acts 29 church network was already taking shape as an offshoot of the Spanish River Church Planting Network. Church planting requires a certain audacity, and in the early 1970’s nobody had more than David Nicholas. Founder of Spanish River Church, David’s burden for evangelism took shape in mentoring relationships with pastors starting congregations of their own. A planter himself, David empathized with those who felt lonely in that particular calling, and he sought to encourage and empower leaders by offering them community -- a network in which they could receive the care, training and accountability to do their jobs well. In this episode of The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill, host Mike Cosper invites us into the room with David Nicholas and Mark Driscoll -- two church planters with widely divergent visions for what constituted successful church growth. Tracing the Acts 29 network from its beginnings, Cosper asks whether any leadership potential is worth overlooking red flags, and whether the broader church actually has what it takes to mentor young leaders with issues of character. “The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill” is a production of Christianity Today Executive Producer: Erik Petrik Producer, Writer, Editor, and Host: Mike Cosper Additional Editing: Resonate Recordings and Matt Linder Associate Producer: Joy Beth Smith Music, Sound Design, and Mix Engineer: Kate Siefker Graphic Design: Bryan Todd Social Media: Nicole Shanks Editorial Consultant: Andrea Palpant Dilley Editor in Chief: Timothy Dalrymple Theme song: “Sticks and Stones” by Kings Kaleidoscope Closing song: “Citizens” by Jon Guerra Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

S1, E13

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47 min
Season 1, Episode 12

Red Sky at Morning

As success grew at Mars Hill, Mark Driscoll’s ministry dreams expanded. With the advent of the multi-site church and advances in technology, a leader could move beyond the mundanity of local place and community to spread his message far afield, fulfilling his own great commission literally to the ends of the earth. With a talented team and generous budget at his fingertips, Mark dreamed big. 50,000 church members. A New York Times bestseller. The most prominent media distribution channel on the Internet. But when you undermine the foundations of a church, you shouldn’t be surprised when the building comes tumbling down around you. When technology removes the limits to access, you shouldn’t be surprised when it also sings the alluring call of worldly success. When you call others to deep sacrifice for your own ambitions, you begin to count the bodies under the bus. In this episode of The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill, host Mike Cosper explores Mars Hill’s “mission accomplished” cultural moment when Mark shifted his gaze from Seattle to cities and success benchmarks beyond. With incisive journalism and compassionate engagement, Cosper paints the picture of a wounded church—sheep dispersed and isolated by technology, expendable to the mission of a shepherd gone wayward. And he asks us to consider whether our adoption of gospel-amplifying tactics has clouded our vision of its good, true and beautiful message. “The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill” is a production of Christianity Today Executive Producer: Erik Petrik Producer, Writer, Editor, and Host: Mike Cosper Additional Editing: Resonate Recordings and Matt Linder Associate Producer: Joy Beth Smith Music, Sound Design, and Mix Engineer: Kate Siefker Graphic Design: Bryan Todd Social Media: Nicole Shanks Editorial Consultant: Andrea Palpant Dilley Editor in Chief: Timothy Dalrymple Theme song: “Sticks and Stones” by Kings Kaleidoscope Closing song: “The Bridge” by Taylor Leonhardt Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

S1, E12

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55 min
Season 1, Episode 18

Bonus Episode: Everything is Still Falling Apart

Building an institution on celebrity power, charisma, and a spirit of grandiosity attracts a lot of people, money and a certain kind of cache for everyone involved. It helps them all to feel like they're part of something that's big — a movement providing a sense of meaning and purpose. But too often, these movements crumble, and those inside are crushed by the process. It's a pattern that extends far beyond Mars Hill, into the realm of politics, academia, media, and more. In this bonus episode of The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill, host Mike Cosper speaks to Yuval Levin and Roger Berkowitz about the connections between the failure of our cultural institutions and the phenomena of rootlessness and loneliness, exploring how these related phenomena create the preconditions for charismatic leaders and corruption, He also talks to Russell Moore about what change looks like in the ruins, starting small, and the power of remembering our death. “The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill” is a production of Christianity Today Executive Producer: Erik Petrik Producer, Writer, Host and Mix Engineer: Mike Cosper Editor: TJ Hester Associate Producers: Joy Beth Smith and Azurae Phelps Music and Sound Design: Kate Siefker Graphic Design: Bryan Todd Social Media: Kate Lucky Editor in Chief: Timothy Dalrymple Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

S1, E18

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57 min
Season 1, Episode 20 Bonus

Bonus Episode: Healing and Resurrection After Spiritual Trauma

The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill tells the stories of myriad hurts committed in the name of Christ and his church. Real pain inflicted on real people has consequences; and, for many in the Mars Hill community, the ripple effects have been long lasting. Individuals' spiritual trauma has born out in subsequent church relationships and even personal spiritual practices like Bible study and prayer. In a culture enamored with therapeutic lingo, it can be hard to determine what true trauma is. Spend any time on social media, and you'll find claims of trauma and invocations against toxic people, especially those associated with the church. Exhorted by Scripture to be "wise as serpents and harmless as doves," how can we discern this kind of abuse when we experience it? How can we create organizations that are hospitable to the hurting? And, what can we do to recover? In this bonus episode of The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill, host Mike Cosper sits down with therapist Aundi Kolber to investigate the roots of spiritual trauma and chart a path forward after pain. Committed to an integrated view of humans as divine image bearers, Kolber explains the necessity of embodiment in our spiritual lives and offers practical tips for starting the process of repair after trauma. You can learn more about Aundi and her work at www.aundikolber.com “The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill” is a production of Christianity Today Executive Producer: Erik Petrik Producer, Writer, Editor, Host, and Mix Engineer: Mike Cosper Associate Producers: Joy Beth Smith and Azurae Phelps Music and Sound Design: Kate Siefker Graphic Design: Rick Szuecs Social Media: Kate Lucky Editorial Consultant: Andrea Palpant Dilley Editor in Chief: Timothy Dalrymple Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Season 1, Episode 20 Bonus

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57 min
09/06/2025 · Bonus

BONUS: Livestream Q&A with Mike Cosper, Matthew D. Taylor, and Robert Downen

Season One may be wrapped—but the story isn’t over. In this bonus episode of The Devil and the Deep Blue Sea, we bring you a dynamic conversation between two returning guests—Matthew D. Taylor and Robert Downen—who unpack the lingering impact of the Satanic Panic and the modern evangelical movement, including the events of January 6, 2021. You’ll also hear from a DDBS from a listener in Australia, who recounts the chilling true story of a fatal exorcism that took place in rural Australia in 1993. And finally, we take a moment to honor the life and legacy of Duane Rollins, a pivotal voice in exposing abuse within the Southern Baptist Convention. Join the DDBS Facebook group to be part of the group and catch our next livestream. We will be back in one week with an all-new episode. Devil and the Deep Blue Sea is a production of Christianity Today Hosted and written by Mike Cosper Produced by Rebekah Sebastian, with production assistance by Dawn Adams Sound Design and Mix Engineer: TJ Hester Sound Design, Animation, and Video: Steve Scheidler Graphic Design: Nim Ben Reuven Music by Dirt Poor Robins Erik Petrik and Mike Cosper are the executive producers of CT Media Podcasts, and Matt Stevens is our senior producer. If you enjoyed this episode, please leave us a rating and review to help more people find the show. Thanks for listening. Can’t wait for the next episode? Join host Mike Cosper for a livestream every other Monday on the CT YouTube channel or the Devil and the Deep Blue Sea Facebook page. Join our Facebook group for deeper conversations and behind-the-scenes content. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

09/06/2025 · Bonus

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54 min

Podcasts that elevate the stories and ideas of the kingdom of God.