David Hankins and I have been writing short stories and learning the industry together for several years. He’s helped me when I’ve gotten stuck with my Writers of the Future entries. (like, why are they rejecting me?!) Authorial note— he took a story from rejected to Silver Honorable Mention. I’ve been watching him sell multiple short stories, run Kickstarters, and self-publish two fun novels with avid admiration. David has been an inspiration as I forge my own path through the many ways writers find success. He’s not afraid to try new things while always coming across as a professional. I interviewed him when he first won several years ago, and he read one of his shorts! This is his second time on the podcast, and feel free to check out his books and learn more about him, here: https://davidhankins.com Angelique: You seem to have a real method to your madness. When it comes to indie publishing, what have you found works? David: Really the way I tend to do things is I find the people who have done very well, and then I mimic what they do because clearly it worked for them. Then I see if I can do what they did in order to reach the next level. With publishing and writing books, I took a look at some of the big names who moved from traditional publishing over to primarily indie, like Dean Wesley Smith and Kevin J. Anderson. Dean gave us a class on the history of publishing, and it really came down to publishing changing dramatically about every fifty years. Right now we’re in the middle of one of those changes. Once he did that analysis, he moved straight over to what was new and where that was going, and I said, all right, I’m going to do the same thing. Angelique: I love that. So when you decided to publish Death and the Tax Man, why did Kickstarter make sense to you? David: Dean Wesley Smith has done a bunch of Kickstarters, and a bunch of others I had followed had done Kickstarters, and I was like, all right, I’m going to launch my first book with a Kickstarter, which was a smashing success. My profit was between thirty and fifty percent. That Kickstarter made about eight thousand dollars, so I made a profit of three to four. Which is great because that means I started in the green. Angelique: That’s amazing. And for anyone nervous about trying Kickstarter, what do you think the real risk is? David: The worst that happens is it doesn’t fund and you’re out nothing but time. But if you do the things that you have seen work, and you’ve observed other people, just mimic what they’ve done. Look at people who have run that kind of Kickstarter. For nonfiction especially, you’re trying to hook people in a different way than you would for a novel. It’s not the adventure, the mystery. It’s, here, learn how to do the thing. Angelique: What’s one of the biggest things you’ve learned so far from indie publishing your trilogy? David: I learned that there are lots of different audience pools out there. Kickstarter is its own pool of readers. The people who are supporting me on Kickstarter are not necessarily the people who are finding me on Amazon, because they do their book shopping on Kickstarter. There’s some crossover, but the growth that I had in Kickstarter did not translate over into Amazon reviews. Angelique: That’s so interesting. What did that teach you about reviews and momentum? David: One of the things that I was always hesitant on and didn’t really do was giving away copies to get reviews. A friend of mine is rapid releasing an urban fantasy series, and she’s doing ARC copies and giving away the free books. I was like, I just had people pay for it on Kickstarter. But it’s a totally different audience. They never would’ve found me on Kickstarter, and my Kickstarter people aren’t the ones who are going over there looking for ARC books to read and review. Angelique: So are you wide, or are you in KU? David: I’ve gone wide, and I’ve loved being wide. I can sell through my website, and I’ve actually sold more through my website and through direct sales, like me going to conventions and fairs and stuff like that. That’s where I made most of my money last year. If I were in KU, I couldn’t sell on my own website. Angelique: That direct sales piece is really interesting. What do you use to power that side of things? David: My sales engine is Square. They have a storefront, which is very basic. Here’s your book, book, book, price, click, buy. And that’s all I need. It integrates via links, so I have my book cover on my website and say, click here for my shop. I use Square because I started with them for in-person sales, because they’re very, very easy for in-person sales. I wanted something that integrated all the same stuff. I wouldn’t have to maintain two different tracking systems. If I sell out of a book in person, then it shows on my website as not available. Angelique: Since you’ve had success with in-person sales, what have you found makes the biggest difference there? David: There are a couple of things that make a difference with in-person sales. One is having the stuff to sell. The people who have three items on their table, they sell three items’ worth of stuff. When I first started, and I had just one book, I sold ten or fifteen copies, and that was it. As soon as I started adding more and more things to sell, I started making more sales, because when someone goes, I don’t know about this lighthearted humor stuff, I can ask what they like to read and point them to something else. So the more options you have, the more sales you’ll make. Angelique: That makes so much sense. Anything else you’ve learned about selling in person? David: I don’t sit. Never sit. I have a chair there just so I can sit and sign, but I’m standing the whole time. That’s another thing I found with in-person sales. If you are standing, you are engaging; they will engage with you. If you are sitting behind your table, hiding behind your books, no one’s going to talk to you. Angelique: What kinds of events have worked best for you? David: I’ve had a variety of places I’ve gone. I’ve done a couple of conventions like LTUE in Provo, Utah, and they have their book sales event on Friday night, and that’s all authors. They leave it open to the public, so it’s not just people at the convention, and that’s a madhouse of people coming in buying books. The one I’ve done the most often is a local toy and game sales event in malls. It’s fifty bucks a table, give or take, and you’re set up in the aisle of the mall. It focuses mostly on comics and games, and the authors do pretty well because there’s crossover. People like comics, they like fantasy books. Angelique: I know a lot of authors wonder about the cost of doing events. How have you approached that side of it? David: You have to build it small. I started with those small events that cost me nothing. I’d go up to the local Barnes & Noble and say, hey, I’m a local author, I have a book that just came out, can I do a signing? I sold ten books through them over two to three hours. Then I built up earnings and moved into something like the comic and game convention at the mall that cost me basically nothing. Everything else, I’m setting up my books, grabbing a wooden box from somewhere else in my house, and making it work. As I make more money with it, that all goes back into the business of expanding it. So if you see my setup now, probably a thousand bucks or more has gone into my setup, but that was all purchased over time. Angelique: I love that approach. You’re really building as you go instead of overextending. David: I would rather pay for things as I go as opposed to going into debt, hoping that I’ll make enough sales to pay it off. (Authorial note: I wish I were smart enough to live my life like that!) Angelique: Audio seems like another piece you’re thinking seriously about. Why is that your next big move? David: Audio is my next big thing because I really, really need to get into audio. It’s the biggest, fastest-growing segment of the market, and every time I have a table, people say, do you have it in audio? No. And then they go, oh, and they walk away. Every single time. Some of them will explain, I’ve got glaucoma, I can’t read the pages anymore, or I’m always on the move. One gal drives truck all day long, so she listens to audiobooks. She doesn’t have time to read physical books. I didn’t have an audiobook, and so I will have an audiobook now. Angelique: Conferences are obviously part of your strategy, too. How important have they been for you? David: For me, conferences are important because one, you get the connections, like I got the connection with the audiobook, and two, building a fan base. But it depends on the conference you go to. LTUE in Provo, Utah is a writing conference. Their focus is all about writing your book, training and teaching and learning. This year was the first year I actually taught my own class. They gave me the auditorium, and it was packed. That was an author level-up moment. My name is getting out there, I’m growing an audience through that, as well as paying it forward because I have learned from a lot of other people at conferences. In that aspect, I think conferences are very, very important because you become part of the community. Angelique: And are all conferences equally useful for you? David: If you’re looking at conferences like Dragon Con or FanX, which are fan-based conferences, that’s a different experience. It is still valid in its own right, but I get less from that because I’m not going there to geek out over who showed up and what panel they’re running. I went to Worldcon and Dragon Con, and I felt lost. There were just so many people. I was lost in the rush. I made a couple of connections, learned a bit about the community itself, but didn’t really grow that much. But I’m tryi
