The M&A Source Podcast

M&A Source

If you work in the business of buying, growing, or selling businesses, this is the podcast for you! Welcome to the M&A Source Podcast, a podcast brought to you by M&A Source, a non-profit professional organization that provides training and education for small to mid-size business mergers and acquisitions intermediaries. In each episode of the podcast, we will interview leaders in the M&A world to discuss education opportunities provided by M&A Source, trends in M&A Markets, and useful insights provided by the experts that use them. Learn more about the podcast and the organization at M&A Source's website: www.masource.org. LEGAL DISCLAIMER: This resource is intended for educational purposes only and does not constitute legal, financial, or tax advice. The information provided herein should not be relied upon for any specific business or financial decision without first consulting appropriate professional counsel. Readers are encouraged to seek advice from qualified attorneys, accountants, or other professionals to address their unique circumstances. Neither the authors nor the publisher assumes any responsibility for actions taken based on the information provided in this resource.

  1. Artisans not Analysts with Ryan Ochs

    3D AGO

    Artisans not Analysts with Ryan Ochs

    What does capital really look for when evaluating a deal? In this episode of the M&A Source Podcast, host David Dejewski sits down with Ryan Ochs, Founder and Managing Partner of RDP Advisory, to discuss how lenders and investors evaluate middle-market transactions. Drawing on nearly two decades of experience in investment banking, private credit, underwriting, and investment committee leadership, Ryan shares practical insights into capital raising, deal preparation, and the realities of modern M&A markets. From investment committee dynamics to family office capital, this conversation gives M&A advisors and founders a clearer understanding of what separates strong deal opportunities from those that fail to gain traction. SummaryRyan Ochs built his career evaluating risk and structuring capital across some of the most active credit and investment platforms in the middle market. After starting at RBC Capital Markets, he moved through roles at American Capital, Brightwood Capital, Star Mountain Advisors, and Lafayette Square, where he led underwriting and origination and served on the investment committee. Today, through RDP Advisory, Ryan helps companies raise capital and structure transactions across the capital stack. In this episode, Ryan explains why many businesses struggle to attract capital, how investment committees actually review opportunities, and why preparation and clarity matter more than ever in today’s disciplined market environment. He also discusses the growing role of family offices in private markets, how advisors can better position deals for investors, and why understanding the fundamentals of how a company makes money is still the most important part of the story. Along the way, Ryan shares real-world transaction stories—including deals that nearly collapsed at closing—and explains what strong advisors do differently to keep deals on track. Key TakeawaysInvestment committees look for clarity, not complexity Deals must clearly explain the fundamentals: how the business makes money, what it costs to generate revenue, and how the financial story ties together. Preparation matters before going to market Strong transactions begin months before outreach, often with sell-side quality of earnings work, clean financial reporting, and a well-prepared narrative. Confusion creates doubt in investors’ minds If financials don’t reconcile or the story isn’t clear, investors begin questioning everything else in the deal. Family offices are becoming a major capital source Many family offices now invest directly in deals, offering flexibility and patient capital compared to traditional private equity funds. The capital stack offers many financing options From bank debt to private credit, mezzanine financing, structured equity, and common equity, each layer has different costs, risks, and investor expectations. Experience still matters in dealmaking Ryan describes M&A as an apprenticeship business where repetition, mentorship, and pattern recognition are critical to developing strong advisors. About the GuestRyan Ochs is the Founder and Managing Partner of RDP Advisory, an independent investment and merchant bank focused on middle-market debt advisory, capital raising, and mergers and acquisitions. Before launching RDP Advisory, Ryan served as Managing Director at Lafayette Square, where he led underwriting and origination and served on the firm’s investment committee. He previously held senior roles at Brightwood Capital, Star Mountain Advisors, American Capital, and RBC Capital Markets. Across his career, Ryan has participated in transactions involving more than 100 companies and over $5 billion in capital raised or invested. Connect with Ryan OchsWebsite: https://rdpadvisory.com LinkedIn: Ryan Ochs https://www.linkedin.com/in/ryancochs/

    1h 10m
  2. ONWC Chain From Asset Dispositions to True Up

    2025-12-19

    ONWC Chain From Asset Dispositions to True Up

    Connect with Us and Access Show Resources: https://snip.ly/mas_interact29 In this episode, we connect asset dispositions (Form 4797), depreciation timing and Section 179 (Publication 946 / Form 4562 support), operating net working capital (process-first peg method + dollar-for-dollar true-up), and asset allocation reporting (Form 8594 residual method). We focus on building a defensible, repeatable approach that holds up in buyer diligence and reduces friction in LOI and purchase agreement drafting. Topics DiscussedIntroduction and Problem StatementThe episode opens by identifying a common pattern in M&A deals: parties argue about working capital adjustments and purchase price before agreeing on what the numbers actually mean. Simultaneously, seller earnings appear distorted due to equipment sales, asset write-offs, or Section 179 depreciation elections. This creates confusion among buyers, sellers, attorneys, CPAs, and brokers who talk past one another. The host promises a process-first methodology connecting four critical elements: IRS Form 4797 asset dispositions, depreciation choices like Section 179, operating working capital, and asset allocation reporting. Asset Dispositions and Form 4797When businesses sell or dispose of property, tax reporting flows through IRS Form 4797. The key concept is "recapture," where some or all disposition gains are treated as ordinary income depending on the asset type, depreciation method, and sale price. Part 3 of Form 4797 computes ordinary income recapture based on the difference between depreciated value and disposition value. The critical valuation takeaway: disposition gains and losses distort operating earnings. A one-time equipment sale may boost income in a non-repeatable way, while disposal losses can depress earnings despite healthy operations. Applying multiples to this "noise" leads to business mispricing. Classification Framework for DispositionsThe proper approach involves classification rather than panic. The key question: Is the business selling assets as a one-time event, or is it part of the operating model structure? Fleet-driven businesses (car rentals, delivery fleets) have planned asset turnover baked into their model—vehicles run for two years then sell on schedule. These dispositions aren't random income events but part of the business engine that will continue with the next buyer. For such cases, create a "steady state view" using averages: replacement cadence, typical proceeds, replacement capex, and recurring earnings impact. Use trailing twelve-month or seasonally adjusted numbers to model the asset cycle as normal operating pattern, normalizing to what buyers should expect going forward. This eliminates buyer skepticism by modeling rather than hand-waving. Section 179 and Depreciation ChoicesIRS Publication 946 outlines depreciation frameworks, including Section 179 elections allowing taxpayers to expense qualifying property immediately rather than depreciating over time—"rapid depreciation" with obvious tax advantages. For deal advisors, Section 179 changes timing: it can make P&L look worse when the business is healthy and investing, or make future years look artificially better because deductions were pulled forward. The solution: normalize with steady state thinking by smoothing out fluctuations to find what's normal. Ask: What level of capex and depreciation is required to keep this business operating as is? Separately address cash reality of replacements versus tax timing of deductions. When buyers claim earnings are low due to high depreciation, normalize to maintenance capex levels and steady state depreciation, applying multiples to maintainable performance, not tax timing. Operating Net Working Capital FoundationIn accounting, "current" means expected to be realized in cash, sold, consumed, or settled within a normal operating cycle (typically 12 months)—the backbone of current assets and current liabilities. The GAAP definition of working capital is current assets minus current liabilities, which is correct but insufficient for sales processes. The deal context requires identifying what's operating versus non-operating—what contributes to business performance in the current period versus what doesn't. The core formula: Operating Net Working Capital = Operating Current Assets - Operating Current Liabilities. The word "operating" is the critical addition. Process-First Method for Working CapitalThe most important move: before discussing numbers, change the conversation early and guide everyone to agree on definitions—specifically what's included and excluded. In Main Street and lower middle market deals, operating net working capital typically excludes cash, interest-bearing debt, owner and related party items, and non-operating one-time balances unless the deal specifies otherwise. The first win is definitional clarity—you cannot have a target peg without good definitions. The process-first method: tell parties you're not picking a peg number arbitrarily; you're agreeing to a method, documenting it, and using it both early on and during true-up at closing. The default method: Target Operating Net Working Capital = average of month-end operating net working capital over trailing 12 months, calculated using the same inclusion/exclusion rules used at closing. For seasonal businesses, use seasonal schedules rather than simple averages. The closing adjustment formula: Purchase Price Adjustment = Closing Operating Net Working Capital - Target Operating Net Working Capital, adjusted dollar-for-dollar with no debate. The sequence: definitions first, method second, numbers last. Allocation and Reporting AlignmentIn applicable asset acquisitions, Form 8594 instructions describe allocating consideration using the residual method—a waterfall assigning values to asset classes with residual being goodwill and going concern value. The key advisory takeaway isn't that brokers become tax preparers, but that operating net working capital definitions agreed upon by all parties must align with how the transaction is described, allocated, and reported later. State forms (like Maryland Form 21) should match what's reported to the IRS on Form 8594, consistent across all parties to avoid audit flags from mismatched reporting. If working capital is trued up after closing, it affects final purchase price consideration and may require consistent treatment across all party reporting going forward. The host distributes a one-page letter in every package to sellers and buyers explaining this, and creates a model 8594 based on the final true-up at closing, marked as sample, suggesting parties take the model and closing documents to their tax preparer the following year. Consistent process across all parties pegged to the last true-up reduces odds that deal economics and reporting story drift apart. Unified Framework SummaryThe complete framework: (1) Normalize earnings so multiples only apply to maintainable performance, eliminating one-time gains/losses and tax timing effects; (2) Classify dispositions properly as one-time versus structural asset cycles; (3) Interpret Section 179 as timing issue and normalize to steady state; (4) Define operating net working capital as operating only, agreeing on inclusions/exclusions; (5) Set peg by agreed historical method and use same model for dollar-for-dollar true-up at close; (6) Keep included asset story consistent with proper asset allocation reporting to IRS and state. This approach reduces friction, gains credibility with sophisticated buyers, and makes transactions easier for counsel and CPAs to document. A flowchart of the four-phase process is provided via link for adaptation to individual deals. Questions/AnswersNote: This is a monologue-style educational podcast with no explicit Q&A format. The host poses rhetorical questions and provides answers throughout. Key questions addressed: • Q: What's the fundamental mistake parties make in working capital disputes? A: Treating earnings normalization, working capital mechanics, and allocation reporting as separate conversations when they're all part of the same system that must tell the same story. • Q: Is the business selling assets as a one-time event or is it part of the operating model structure? A: This is the right classification question. One-time events get different treatment than structural, recurring asset cycles that are baked into the business model. • Q: What level of CAPEX and depreciation is required to keep this business operating as is? A: This is the normalizing question for Section 179 and depreciation issues, leading to separate conversations about cash reality of replacements versus tax timing of deductions. • Q: What is operating versus non-operating in the balance sheet? A: Operating items contribute to business performance in the current period; non-operating items do not. This distinction is critical for defining operating net working capital beyond the GAAP definition. • Q: How do you stop fighting over the peg number? A: Don't pick a number arbitrarily. Agree to a method, document it, and use the same method both for setting the initial peg and for the true-up at closing. Definitions first, method second, numbers last. 5 Best Quotes• "Disposition gains and losses can distort operating earnings... If you apply a multiple to any of that noise, you're going to misprice the business." This quote captures the core valuation risk when asset dispositions aren't properly normalized. • "Before you start talking about numbers, change the conversation early. Guide everybody to agree on definitions. Specifically what's included, what's excluded." This establishes the foundational principle of the process-first methodology. • "We're not picking a peg number out of the air. We're agreeing to a method. We'll document that method... Does everybody agree that we can all work under the same set of rules?" This reframes working c

    21 min
  3. Top 10 Tax Code Provisions to Leverage in M&A (Part 2)

    2024-11-04

    Top 10 Tax Code Provisions to Leverage in M&A (Part 2)

    Interact with the show: https://snip.ly/mas_interact25 In this episode of the M&A Source podcast, Dave Dejewski continues a series on essential tax code provisions for mergers and acquisitions, discussing five additional provisions that can significantly impact tax outcomes for buyers, sellers, and their advisors. Topic DiscussedThe exchange is a podcast discussing 10 tax code provisions that are relevant for mergers and acquisitions (M&A) transactions. It is divided into two parts, with Part 1 covering the first 5 provisions and Part 2 covering the remaining 5 provisions. Part 2 covers the following tax code provisions: 1. Section 368 - Tax-Free Reorganizations This provision allows for tax-deferred treatment of certain corporate reorganizations, such as mergers and acquisitions, to encourage business continuity, growth, and realignment without triggering immediate tax liabilities. It requires continuity of interest and continuity of business enterprise. 2. Section 409A - Deferred Compensation This provision establishes strict rules for when income can be deferred and when it must be paid, preventing abuse and ensuring fairness in the tax system. It imposes penalties for non-compliance and encourages proper planning and transparency in deferred compensation plans. 3. Section 1031 - Like-Kind Exchanges This provision allows for the deferral of capital gains taxes when exchanging real properties for similar properties, stimulating growth in real estate-heavy businesses. 4. Section 721 - Contributions to Partnerships This provision promotes the creation and growth of partnerships by allowing individuals or entities to contribute property to a partnership without triggering immediate tax consequences, facilitating partnership formation and encouraging joint ventures and investments. 5. Section 453 and 453A - Installment Sales Section 453 allows sellers to report capital gains income over time through the installment sale method, aligning tax payments with the receipt of sale proceeds and providing tax deferral. Section 453A imposes an interest charge on large installment sales over $5 million to limit the tax benefits of deferring large amounts of tax. Key Takeaways These final five of ten tax provisions cover a wide range of areas, including tax-free reorganizations, deferred compensation, like-kind exchanges, partnership contributions, and installment sales. The episode highlights the importance of understanding these provisions and leveraging them to minimize tax liabilities, encourage business continuity, and facilitate growth and realignment. It also emphasizes the need for proper planning, transparency, and compliance to avoid penalties and ensure that the intended tax benefits are realized. Overall, this episode provides valuable insights into the tax considerations and strategies that should be taken into account when structuring M&A deals, making it a valuable resource for advisors, business owners, and investors involved in such transactions. LEGAL DISCLAIMER: This resource is intended for educational purposes only and does not constitute legal, financial, or tax advice. The information provided herein should not be relied upon for any specific business or financial decision without first consulting appropriate professional counsel. Readers are encouraged to seek advice from qualified attorneys, accountants, or other professionals to address their unique circumstances. Neither the authors nor the publisher assumes any responsibility for actions taken based on the information provided in this resource.

    1 hr
  4. Top 10 Tax Code Provisions to Leverage in M&A (Part 1)

    2024-10-20

    Top 10 Tax Code Provisions to Leverage in M&A (Part 1)

    Interact with the show: https://snip.ly/mas_interact24 The episode discusses 10 key tax code provisions relevant to mergers and acquisitions (M&A) transactions. It is divided into multiple parts, with Part 1 covering the following provisions: 1. Section 338 - Election for Treating Stock Purchases as Asset Purchases This provision allows buyers to treat a stock purchase as if they are purchasing the underlying assets of the business, enabling them to step up the basis of the acquired assets to their fair market value for tax purposes. 2. Section 1202 - Qualified Small Business Stock Exclusions This provision allows investors to exclude capital gains taxes on the sale of stock in qualified small businesses, subject to certain eligibility criteria. 3. Section 197 - Amortization of Goodwill and Intangibles This provision provides uniform rules for the amortization of intangible assets, such as goodwill, franchise rights, patents, and trademarks, over a 15-year period. 4. Section 280G - Golden Parachute Payments This provision addresses excessive compensation packages (golden parachutes) paid to executives and key employees during a change of control event, such as a merger or acquisition. 5. Section 382 - Limitation on Net Operating Losses This provision limits the amount of net operating losses that a company can use after an ownership change to prevent companies from acquiring loss corporations solely for tax benefits. 5 Best Quotes1. "Section 338 allows buyers to treat a stock purchase as if they're purchasing the underlying assets of the business. And that means for tax purposes, the buyer can step up the basis of the acquired assets to their fair market value as opposed to the book value, which can result in greater depreciation, amortization deductions over time." 2. "Section 1202 is a powerful tool for investors and business owners who want to maximize their returns by excluding capital gains taxes on the sale of stock in small businesses." 3. "Section 197 was introduced to basically provide some uniform rules around amortization of intangible assets intangible assets, what are they it's goodwill, it's franchise rights, it's patents, it's trademarks." 4. "Section 280G of the US tax code was created to address this golden parachute concept. Golden parachute are these large compensation packages there's severance payments that are paid to executives and they're paid out to key employees when there's a change of control event so a merger or an acquisition is considered a change of control event." 5. "Section 382, it curbs this practice by limiting the amount of net operating losses that a company can use after the acquisition and that's based on the company's value at the time of the ownership change and this prevents companies from using net operating losses as a tax sheltering tool." Lessons LearnedThis episode provides a high level overview of several key tax code provisions that can significantly impact the structuring and tax implications of M&A transactions. It highlights the importance of understanding these provisions and working closely with legal and financial advisors to ensure that deals are structured efficiently and in compliance with tax regulations. The detailed explanations, examples, and practical considerations offered in the show are valuable for M&A advisors, business owners, and investors involved in buying or selling businesses. LEGAL DISCLAIMER: This resource is intended for educational purposes only and does not constitute legal, financial, or tax advice. The information provided herein should not be relied upon for any specific business or financial decision without first consulting appropriate professional counsel. Readers are encouraged to seek advice from qualified attorneys, accountants, or other professionals to address their unique circumstances. Neither the authors nor the publisher assumes any responsibility for actions taken based on the information provided in this resource.

    40 min

About

If you work in the business of buying, growing, or selling businesses, this is the podcast for you! Welcome to the M&A Source Podcast, a podcast brought to you by M&A Source, a non-profit professional organization that provides training and education for small to mid-size business mergers and acquisitions intermediaries. In each episode of the podcast, we will interview leaders in the M&A world to discuss education opportunities provided by M&A Source, trends in M&A Markets, and useful insights provided by the experts that use them. Learn more about the podcast and the organization at M&A Source's website: www.masource.org. LEGAL DISCLAIMER: This resource is intended for educational purposes only and does not constitute legal, financial, or tax advice. The information provided herein should not be relied upon for any specific business or financial decision without first consulting appropriate professional counsel. Readers are encouraged to seek advice from qualified attorneys, accountants, or other professionals to address their unique circumstances. Neither the authors nor the publisher assumes any responsibility for actions taken based on the information provided in this resource.

You Might Also Like