Conversations about Meher Baba

Angela Lee Chen - Baba Zoom

Different hosts, different topics, sometimes featured guests: but always about loving Meher Baba in the present tense. Conversations are held live on Baba Zoom at various times. If you want to join the conversation, visit babazoom.net for more information, login information is available under the ”Virtual Meetings” page.

  1. 2 DAYS AGO

    Late Night Chat with Jeff Wolverton: E&G: ”The Value of the Opposites,” Jan 5, 2026, live Baba Zoom

    Dear folks of Baba, Whether we like it or not, Baba has built into Creation the conflict between the opposites such as good and bad, masculine and feminine, justice and injustice, superiority and inferiority, repression and indulgence, moral and immoral. These opposites make their appearance at the level of daily life. When these opposites clash, like the two poles of a battery, they generate great power, both positive as well as negative. The energy released when the opposites meet, if integrated properly by us, has the potential of lifting us out of the dual realm and propelling us to a higher level, giving us an experience of oneness. More often, however, the conflict of the opposites initially evokes a negative reaction in us, and we attempt to suppress one of the opposites and accentuate the other. Do we perceive these conflicts as originating in others alone or do we perceive these conflicts as coming from Baba through others? In either case, a great deal of adjustment is usually required to resolve the clash of the opposites. Our inner harmony can depend on whether we take these opposites and the often herculean adjustment required as a challenge from Baba or an irritation manufactured by the world. Can we find the third position, as Carl Jung, the famous psychiatrist, referred to, beyond the duality where the conflict of the opposites is resolved? According to him, whenever there is any problem, there will be two opposite approaches for resolving it. Neither solution will be correct, but must undergo the tension that will result, if one perseveres, in a third approach. That third approach will result in an integration of the duality within the individual’s psyche. Darwin says, “The combination creates a balance of the opposites; the tension of the paradox creates a current, releasing the locked energy, creating momentum, and canceling out both of the opposites. The effect is that we are bringing together two forces, a positive and a negative, which ignite and create energy, and, together with the self-denial that is part of the spiritual path, precipitate the consciousness to a higher level. However, if you act on [only] one of them, the current is diffused.” In explaining this phenomenon of opposites, Bhau, one of the intimate mandali, would occasionally say, “Sometimes it takes a nightmare to wake us up from a pleasant dream.” We have a great resistance to being awakened even when it is for our own good; we tend to resist change and so easily justify our negative reaction. There are many ways that the conflict between the opposites makes its appearance. Baba gives the example of the polarity of the masculine and feminine qualities in us. When these opposites are embodied in two persons as they interact, they can generate a tremendous energy and even inspire a lifelong love and devotion. Someone in love can cross deserts on foot, suffering incredible thirst and hunger, just to be with his or her beloved. But also, if a person loses their loved one to someone else, especially if jealousy enters the picture, the energy created by the polarities can result in a lifelong hostility. Both responses generate great energy. Baba says that to overcome the polarity of male and female is to overcome much of the problem of duality. In the Discourses, He writes, “The transcending of the sex duality does not amount to overcoming all duality, but it certainly goes a long way towards facilitating the complete transcendence of duality in all its forms.” To overcome this duality, Baba says what is required for the individual is to experience, through imaginative or intuitive projection, what their partner feels themselves to be in their own experience, rather than viewing their partner through their own personal lens. In this experience, the individual finds a third way, a resolution above duality through non-identification with the gender of the body. And this third way comes about through the energy brought on by the clash of the opposites itself, which Baba uses as a tool for our awakening. Baba describes the ultimate challenge of rising above the opposites in these words: Remember in the future, that when anyone hurts you, it is I who hurt you; when anyone loves you, it is I who loves you; when anyone laughs at you, it is I who am laughing; when you love anyone, it is I whom you love. I am in all things. How can you realize My infinite presence if you shrink from me in those who hurt you and welcome Me only in those who please you? In His love, Jeff A link to the PDF of Effort and Grace: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1xrR75eksY-tErdKZm9aOBs3omuhioasb/view?usp=sharing

    1h 19m
  2. 24/12/2025

    Late Night Chat with Jeff Wolverton: E&G: ”Beyond the Dual Realm,” Dec 23, 2025, live Baba Zoom

    Dear folks of Baba, Once in Mandali Hall at Meherazad during the 1980s, Eruch shared with us about the phenomenon and nature of the dual realm, which divides everything into opposites. The triune attributes of Infinite Knowledge, Power and Bliss, when they come down into this world of Illusion, are divided into opposites. Thus, the Infinite Knowledge of God is divided into ignorance and worldly knowledge, the Infinite Power of God is divided into weakness and strength, and the Infinite Bliss of God is divided into misery and happiness. The Supreme Being, when it incarnates in this world of Illusion, takes the forms of masculine and feminine; Adi, Baba’s secretary, shared with us that Baba had told him that in this advent, Mehera is playing the role of His feminine counterpart. For eons of time, we are caught at the level of duality, trapped more or less in one opposite or the other; we invariably think they are the only options we have. It usually doesn’t occur to us that we can go beyond the dual world of opposites into the Divine Realm within and experience our intrinsic completeness, the oneness of our Soul. Baba has said that the trajectory of human beings is to basically go from bad to good to God. However, we first have to entertain the possibility of going beyond duality by giving up our obsession with the opposites such as worldly knowledge as opposed to ignorance, strength as opposed to weakness, and happiness as opposed to misery. Darwin was forever encouraging us in so many ways to leave the seemingly safe harbor of the opposites and set out with Baba into the unknown open seas. In his words, “Why strive to become something in the dual realm when you have to let the whole realm go? “ In early childhood, we lived for a time in the realm of relative oneness, but as we grew older, we set out unconsciously to make our mark in the world of duality, to make efforts to achieve our future goals, to educate ourselves to do so, and to strive to arrange for ourselves a secure place in the world. But then Baba entered our lives, usually when we were most vulnerable, calling us to leave the dual world behind and join Him in His realm of Oneness. And as Baba says, the challenge is to do this and still live a practical life in the world at the same time! Baba is our ticket out of the world of duality. In this world of preferences, how can we prefer Him above all our other preferences? How do we get out of the world of duality? Our efforts should eventually be directed toward focusing entirely on Baba in each moment. One of the major hurdles we have to rise above is our unexamined identification with what Darwin calls our personality self. It is the personality self that has myriad preferences--all our ambitions for achieving things in this world such as success, control, comfort, recognition and pleasure. We have to go beyond the personality self which Darwin referred to as merely “a storefront for the soul. We make such a big deal of the window displays, changing them with the seasons when we could enjoy the priceless merchandise inside!” We have to create some inner space between our personality self and our consciousness (our soul). The personality is meant, as Darwin would say, to be a “conduit” or vehicle for love and the soul, not a base of operations as it is for most of us. To focus on Baba in any way, shape or form is to immerse ourselves little by little in the Oneness beyond duality and the personality, and this can be experienced in our day-to-day lives. It is the quickest and fastest way to move beyond the opposites. We choose loving Baba over wanting the many things in this world. The two major ways to rise above duality, according to Eruch, are: remembering Baba consciously and the losing of ourselves in activities that we love (which is an unconscious remembrance); it’s hard to realize that losing ourselves IS Baba! Baba is always there within, ever ready to personally help us in this. As we focus on Him, our attachment to the dual realm begins to drop away from sheer neglect. There is a gradual psychic shift from seeking fulfillment in the world to finding fulfillment in Baba. He is the very embodiment of Oneness that leads to inner freedom beyond the opposites! As Dr. Harry Kenmore, one of the Western mandali, would say, “You can’t get perfection out of imperfection no matter how you contort yourself. Perfection has to reach in from the realm of Reality and pull you out!” What flashes of insight or painful experiences have moved and even driven you to see that you need to move out of the dual realm? What stages have you gone through that would indicate that you are moving toward Baba’s Oneness? Mother Theresa describes beautifully the state of being a vehicle for divine love: "I am a little pencil in the hand of a writing God sending a love letter to the world." In His love, Jeff P.S. We are continuing with chapter, Expressing Ourselves

    45 min
  3. 18/12/2025

    Late Night Chat with Jeff Wolverton: E&G: ”Losing Ourselves in Doing,” Dec 15, 2025, live Baba Zoom

    Losing Ourselves in What We Do Dear folks of Baba, Most of us are struggling with how to live in and relate to this world. When we were with Darwin, he spoke often of being detached from the world, but in my early years with Baba, it was not really clear to me what this meant. It was Eruch who helped me immensely to see life in this world from a unique and more comprehensive perspective. There was a time in 1975, before starting at the Meher Center, when I was working for a buddy of mine painting houses, which included doing fine interior jobs over in Briarcliffe Acres, just north of the Center. In this upscale neighborhood, we had to do quality work. Back then, I would describe myself as a Baba remembrance machine; I would say “Baba, Baba, Baba...” inwardly with each brush stroke, while sanding, caulking, cutting in windows and baseboards. In my early years with Baba, I tended to do everything in extreme. I worked with my buddy for six months, and then we went to India. One day at Meherazad, we were sitting just outside Mandali Hall on a bench with Eruch, and my buddy said, “Eruch, I work as a house painter, and sometimes hours go by and I haven’t even thought of Baba. He is the most important One in the world. He asks us to make Him our constant companion, and I let hours go by and I’m not even remembering Him. What can I do about that?” Eruch replied in his very casual way, “In the beginning, it’s important to remember Baba, repeat His name, to see the movies, to go where Baba has been, and to read the Baba literature. But in time it becomes important to forget yourself. When you forget yourself, then Baba can live through you. You’re not aware of it, but He is living through you. So, lose yourself in your painting.” He highlighted the supreme value of self-forgetfulness, and his words unexpectedly resonated to the depths of my soul and were forever emblazoned in my heart. Previously I would have thought that losing yourself in painting was like burying yourself in the complete mundane; what has house painting got to do with spirituality and Baba except, maybe, earning a living in the world? That moment outside Mandali Hall was a turning point for me in my life with Baba, because I had become a bit too serious, rigid and truly obsessed with remembering Him all the time. I had lost the playfulness that had always been a part of me since childhood, the spontaneous enthusiasm of my college days, the genuine fun in life that I had experienced over the years. Since that brief, life-changing conversation with Eruch, I have found that self-forgetfulness and the conscious remembering of Baba make a vital and complementary dynamic in my inner life. Eruch would say, “Get wholeheartedly lost in your activities, and when coming out of that absorption, remember Baba.” And he would add, “When you remember to remember, remember Him!” So, this is how I translate Eruch’s words into my life: when I get wholeheartedly into something, such as volleyball or music or gardening or a conversation, I forget myself. Baba then can live through me as Eruch has said even though I am not aware of it. And after the activity, I remember Him. So, it’s an alternating between Baba remembrance and self-forgetfulness. I found, when it was all Baba remembrance, I would become a little stiff and unnatural, and if it’s all self-forgetfulness, that also can sometimes become unbalanced, like watching football all weekend on television. Self-forgetfulness and Baba remembrance, for me, work beautifully and harmoniously together. Baba liked games, skits, jokes and movies, because in them we forget ourselves. I asked Margaret Craske’s dancers, most of whom were deeply devoted to Baba, if they remembered Him out on the stage in the midst of their performances. They all said that they remembered Baba before going on stage, and then lost themselves in their dancing. Afterwards, they would dedicate their performance to Baba. They had all tried at one time to remember Baba during their performances, but they confessed that it didn’t work; it took away from their total absorption in the dance. So, Darwin’s encouraging us to become detached from the world, through Eruch, took on a much deeper and more practical meaning for me. I am approached by young people, many of whom have computer jobs in which they are absorbed for hours with data and digital work. They often confess that they don’t find the work fulfilling. What Eruch has said gave a new and different meaning to their work, giving them permission to be wholehearted in what they do, knowing that Baba is living through them and is vitally present. And in the moment when they come out of their absorption in work, they can remember their Beloved! In this way, they are actually “in the world, but not of it.” In time, this approach, with its effacing of the self, leads to the knowing that Baba is the sole doer of everything. In His love, Jeff

    1h 17m
  4. 09/12/2025

    Late Night Chat with Jeff Wolverton: E&G: ”micro-managing my life,” Dec 7, 2025, live Baba Zoom

    Dear folks of Baba, The micro-managing of our lives—with all the struggles, dreams, fears, ambitions, successes and failures that this entails—can all be carried out more effortlessly and efficiently and simply by the love and support that Baba will happily and freely give to us. What is an eternal burden to us can be given over to Baba, so that our day unfolds more and more in His way and not in our way which continually seems to require so much decision-making, so much guess work and so much ongoing anxiety. Baba would like to take over our lives for us, but we don’t have a clear understanding of how to let Him. The mandali, Baba’s intimate ones who lived with Him, were forever urging us to give everything to Him, but how is this to be done? Is there a method or practice for turning our spare moments throughout the day over to Baba? The mandali were embodiments of various practical and touching ways of doing this. In my many hours of being with them and asking countless questions, here are some of the most helpful practices they shared in gradually turning our day over to Baba. The mandali brought home to us that Baba’s love is continuously flowing into us every moment through our soul, and from our soul into our mind and heart, and eventually into our day. Unfortunately, this river of Baba’s love, which begins so pure and pristine at its source, has to pass through our mind with its interminable swirl of thoughts and cauldron of beliefs of right and wrong, good and bad, spiritual and unspiritual, and it also has to pass through our heart with all its congestion of emotions, desires and feelings. This pure and pristine river, as it flows into our day, unfortunately picks up the residue and sometimes even the pollution of the mind and heart along the way which can create a massive congestion in the moment we find ourselves in. This pristine river is then sometimes experienced as a murky stream, or a stagnant bog, and yet occasionally, if we are fortunate to be open to Baba’s grace, a fresh flow of pure water. All that we do that is not inspired directly by love leaves an impressional residue in us. Is there something we can do in the moment to encourage this pure and pristine river to flow through us without contamination? Yes, according to the mandali. Whatever we are feeling in the moment--anxious, happy, angry, lustful, greedy--we can let it flow in an energetic stream toward Baba before us (or however you might describe this giving). When we lose this flow of love and instead feel our negative side in the moment, we can let that flow toward Baba. He is right here before us always, face to face; He is not just in some transcendent state far above and beyond us. As Eruch would say, we have to “kid” ourselves into believing He is right before us, and one day we will experience that this had been true all along. Baba’s being is impression-less as Eruch and Darwin Shaw have said, and all our impressions that we give to Him, good, bad and ugly, are instantly dissolved in His being, but only one layer at a time. When the flow of our love becomes congested in the good, bad and ugly of our minds and hearts, we can give these less desirable impressions energetically to Baba. Over time, the obstructions and the congestion they cause, begin to break up and loosen due to the force of giving them to Baba in the moment. Often taking decades, our life begins to flow more and more with Baba’s love, and our day starts to unfold in His way, and we are relieved little by little of the burden of having to micro-manage our life. In addition to these efforts, any remembrance of Baba and the taking of His name in our spare moments is continually dissolving automatically our massive accumulation of past impressions (sanskaras). As we give Baba the “strangers in our heart”, we make more room for Him to live in us. Our life, as Darwin has said, eventually becomes a “constant state of giving to Baba.” If this is all we did in our spare moments throughout the day, that would be enough to experience a very fulfilling life. We constantly forget that Baba is always right before us, personally waiting for us to see the sun of His shining personality through the clouds of our impressions, and give ourselves to Him. Prophet Mohammed once said, “Between you and Me, there are forty-nine veils. Between Me and you, there are no veils.” The glorious overall theme of Darwin’s book, Effort and Grace, is about giving ourselves little by little to Baba, which culminates in our complete surrender in which He takes over the reins of our life. As it says in the Bible, “Not I, but Christ liveth in me.” This is the supreme destiny of everyone! What is your experience of giving things to Baba? In His love, Jeff P.S. We are continuing after six weeks on page 52 A link to the PDF of Effort and Grace: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1xrR75eksY-tErdKZm9aOBs3omuhioasb/view?usp=sharing

    1h 15m

About

Different hosts, different topics, sometimes featured guests: but always about loving Meher Baba in the present tense. Conversations are held live on Baba Zoom at various times. If you want to join the conversation, visit babazoom.net for more information, login information is available under the ”Virtual Meetings” page.