The VBAC Link Meagan Heaton

Today we welcome Jayne Havens, the founder of the Snooze Fest sleep training course and The Center for Pediatric Sleep Management™ sleep consultant certification program. Just like how Meagan’s birth experiences led her to become a doula and VBAC advocate, Jayne talks about how the knowledge she gained by teaching healthy sleep habits to her own children helped her create a passionate career.

Jayne answers Meagan’s questions about sleep consulting in general, how to help children feel safe in their bedrooms, ways to effectively communicate, developmental milestones in both babies and children that can affect sleep, how to become a sleep consultant, where to find them, and even earning potential from a career as a sleep consultant!

Jayne's Course - Use code VBACLINK for a discount!
Becoming a Sleep Consultant Facebook Group
Becoming a Sleep Consultant Podcast
Needed Website
How to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for Parents
Full Transcript under Episode Details 

02:24 Review of the Week
05:35 Jayne’s journey to sleep consulting
13:35 How can a sleep consultant help?
19:43 What to do when a child feels unsafe in their room
21:08 The life of a sleep consultant
25:17 Sleep consultant qualifications
30:36 Ages covered in Jayne’s course
36:00 How to find a sleep consultant
40:59 Cost to hire a sleep consultant and potential earnings as a sleep consultant
46:57 Where to find “Becoming a Sleep Consultant” 

Meagan: Hello, Women of Strength. It is Meagan and we have my friend, Jayne Havens on the podcast today. Hello, Jayne. 

Jayne: Thank you so much for having me. I’m so excited to be here. 

Meagan: Thank you. Me too. We actually just met this year, 2024 in January and we met at a business doula retreat. Jayne is actually not a doula. She is a mom and a successful business owner. When we connected, I just felt so much that our stories related in different ways but very much in the same ways and I was like, “I want you on the podcast.” So today, we’re not sharing a VBAC birth story, but we’re sharing a business birth story and some tips on sleep and how to help your babies sleep because we know as mamas with newborn babies, we don’t get a lot of that sometimes and it doesn’t have to be that way. 

I’m so excited to have Jayne Havens who is a certified sleep consultant and runs her own sleep consulting practice, Snooze Fest by Jayne Havens and you also have a podcast. 

Jayne: I do. It’s called Becoming a Sleep Consultant. 

Meagan: Becoming a Sleep Consultant. As a new parent overwhelmed by exhaustion like I just said we all have with a newborn, Jayne found herself reading everything she could find in order to get her own son to sleep through the night. Now, if you are driving, don’t raise your hand because keep your hands on the wheel, but you can nod if you understand that sentence right there. I definitely was that with my son and my daughter and my first. I’ve had three and we have to figure it out and every baby is different. 

So friends, quickly after she mastered this, started asking her, “Help, please!” She started doing that and helping all of these moms and babies sleep better, feel better, and just live better. Jayne’s children were both fabulous sleepers and they began coming to her for that help because they saw it. 

We are so excited to have Jayne today. 

02:24 Review of the Week
Meagan: I do think that a Review of the Week is needed so I”m going to hurry and share a Review of the Week and then we will dive right into this amazing episode. 

Okay, so this review is from sarahgb and it says, “Full of knowledge, fun, and strength-filled stories.” It says, “First off, I would like to say that I am 16 years old and a doula in training and lover of anything pregnancy, birth, and baby related. This podcast is literally exactly what I have been looking for and wanting. I have been listening for a long time and cannot stop. I think I’ve listened to four or f

“If you don’t know your options, you don’t have any!”

April is Cesarean Awareness Month and we hope this month is one of information, empowerment, and love from us here at The VBAC Link to you. Referring to the amazing resources provided by the International Cesarean Awareness Network (ICAN), Meagan and Julie break down the mission of Cesarean Awareness Month. 

Whether you are a first-time mom, VBAC mom, CBAC, or RCS mom, there is space for all of you! This month is meant to not only reduce Cesarean rates overall. It is also meant to inform everyone about birthing options, hospital rights, and ways to make Cesarean births better. We need all of our experiences to make positive changes in the birthing world for future generations! 

ICAN's Website
Cesarean Awareness Month Toolkit
Infant Mortality Statistics from 2022
Informed Pregnancy Plus
Needed Website
How to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for Parents
Full Transcript under Episode Details 

07:03 Review of the Week
09:29 Why we need Cesarean Awareness Month
13:12 ICAN’s Cesarean Awareness Month toolkit
16:00 Ways to make Cesarean births better
21:20 Common reasons for Cesareans
25:59 Your hospital rights
32:10 The safety of home birth
36:52 Lower Cesarean rates = lower infant/maternal mortality rates
40:38 A message to the CBAC community

Meagan: Hello, hello everybody. It is Meagan and I have Julie with us today. I always get so happy. 

Julie: Hello, hello. 

Meagan: We are going to be talking about International Cesarean Awareness Month. Now, this is sensitive. It’s sensitive. It can be sensitive. It’s a month, a whole 30 days or 29 days. I don’t actually know how long April is. 

Julie: April is not 29 days you crazy. That’s just February once every four years. 

Meagan: That’s just February. Maybe 30, maybe 31. I don’t know. 

Julie: April is 30 days always every year. 

Meagan: Is it? I don’t know my months apparently. 

Julie: Apparently. 

Meagan: It can be a long month for people and we’re going to talk a little bit more about that. But it stands for International Cesarean Awareness Month and it is a month that is truly just brought to create awareness around unnecessary Cesareans, around advocating for vaginal births after Cesarean, improving Cesarean recovery after, and really just spreading the word and getting the information out there because as someone who has been in the VBAC world before, we have been told many times that VBAC isn’t possible and Cesarean is a must. 

You know, Cesarean isn’t desired by everyone, and a VBAC isn’t desired by everybody, but it’s important to know the options. One of the coolest things is that ICAN which is a nonprofit organization created this mission and I’m just going to read it. Does that sound appropriate? 

“ICAN is a nonprofit organization whose mission is to improve maternal/child health by reducing preventable Cesareans through education, supporting Cesarean recovery, and advocating for vaginal birth after Cesarean for VBAC.” 

We are really grateful for ICAN. They do a lot of amazing things and I know that they were a big part of my journey. I mean, wouldn’t you say yours too, Julie? I think that’s actually where we might have met is an ICAN chapter meeting maybe. 

Julie: Where did we meet? Now I’m going to think. 

Meagan: I feel like I can picture you in a living room in a chair up front. You were very involved with the presenter and I was just there. 

Julie: Wasn’t it at your house? 

Meagan: No. 

Julie: Okay. Yeah, I remember that one. 

Meagan: It was at someone else’s house and anyway, that’s the first day I remember seeing your beautiful face. Crazy, but we love ICAN and we support them. Julie was just looking and they had a t-shirt. One of the things it says is, “You have options.” That is going to be one of the things that we are talking about today. 

Julie: Yeah. That was last year’s theme but they haven’t posted this ye

Hayley joins the show today sharing her breech Cesarean and unmedicated hospital VBAC stories. Meagan and Hayley dive deep into the pros and cons of getting an epidural and why providers tell women so many different things when it comes to epidurals and VBAC!

While Hayley had the dreamiest birth she could have imagined and everything went according to plan, her postpartum experience with prolapse was not something she was prepared for. Hayley shares her symptoms, what she wished she knew, and what she has done since to recover and feel like herself again. 

Needed Website
How to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for Parents
Full Transcript under Episode Details 

02:47 Just-in-case epidural
04:16 Dr. McGuire’s insight on epidurals
08:42 Using an epidural as a tool
10:44 Hayley’s first pregnancy and birth
12:00 Doing VBAC research before pregnancy
13:51 Hayley’s second pregnancy
18:15 Labor begins
20:16 Going to the hospital
24:20 Pushing
27:05 Hayley’s prolapse experience
32:01 Symptoms of uterine prolapse
35:29 Prolapse can happen

Meagan: Hello, hello Women of Strength. You guys, I am excited about today’s episode. I love talking about VBAC obviously, but specifically, we are going to talk a little bit about unmedicated versus medicated. Our friend, Hayley, from North Carolina has had a beautiful unmedicated hospital VBAC so I want to also talk about the opposite side of that and talk about medicated VBAC. 

We have so many people in our community that I see type, “I want a VBAC, but I don’t want to go unmedicated and my doctor says I have to. I can’t have an epidural” or the total flipside of that where, “I really want an unmedicated VBAC, but my doctor says I can’t go unmedicated. I have to have the epidural.” Did I just say that correctly, Hayley? 

Hayley: Yes, yeah. 

Meagan: It’s either one or the other. We’ve got providers telling people they can’t have an epidural or they have to have an epidural. So I wanted to just talk a little bit today before we get going on those two topics. 

First of all, let’s talk about unmedicated birth. Hayley and I are living proof today. We are on this episode that unmedicated VBAC is 100% possible, achievable, and safe. A lot of those providers come out and say that they can’t go unmedicated because they say it’s not safe. In the rare chance, we know that uterine rupture happens but it is rare. In the rare chance of a uterine rupture, that is where they say that is not okay. 

Or they will say things like, “But you wouldn’t want to be knocked out for your birth,” which is scary. I don’t want to be knocked out for my birth and I know people have. A lot of the time, it is not the most pleasant experience. Yeah. Okay, so let’s talk about that. 

Unmedicated vaginal birth is unmedicated vaginal birth. That’s what it is. I’m just laying it out there. Yes, we have a slight increase in uterine rupture. Yes. What happens if we have a uterine rupture and we are unmediated? 

A lot of the time, we are noticing that there are signs of uterine rupture. When we get an epidural and a spinal, we go back and have a C-section. Simple as that. 

Or if it is a true medical emergency, yes, there is that small risk of needing to be put under. Small risk and small risk equal risk of course, but it’s low. 

02:47 Just-in-case epidural
Meagan: What about if we have the just-in-case epidural? I seriously sometimes just want to sock someone who says “Just in case”. We don’t need to be placing an epidural just to have it ready to dose because guess what? In the event that it is a true emergency and we really do need to go in for an immediate Cesarean, it’s the same thing. We get knocked out. 

I know that these words are kind of big and harsh words. We get knocked out, but we get put under general anesthesia if we don’t have anything in our system. 

Now, let’s talk about an epidural. You actually have an epidural placed. It’s runnin

Though Karen did research and took birthing classes before her first baby, she didn’t realize how much advocating for herself could change the course of her birth. She wanted to be the “good” patient and told herself she could do without the things her body told her she needed during labor. Karen ended up pushing for over four hours and consenting to what she was told was an emergency C-section, even though the actual surgery didn’t happen until hours later.

Karen had some serious postpartum symptoms of swelling and difficulty breathing that were dismissed and even laughed at until things came to a point where she knew something was very wrong. She was diagnosed with postpartum cardiomyopathy, admitted to the ICU, and transferred to cardiac care. 

Doctors told Karen very different things about her condition. She went from being told not to have any more children to hearing that VBAC was absolutely safe. Karen discusses how her gestational hypertension came into play with the different advice as well. 

Karen found her voice. She advocated for herself. She knew what her body was saying and what it was capable of. Her labor was so smooth and she WAS able to birth vaginally!

Informed Pregnancy Plus
Needed Website
How to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for Parents
Full Transcript under Episode Details 

3:46 Review of the Week
06:27 Karen’s stories
08:50 First labor
10:47 Pushing for four hours
15:11 Karen’s C-section
17:43 Postpartum swelling and difficulty breathing
21:03 Fluid in her lungs
23:52 Moving to Florida and getting answers
25:13 Getting pregnant again
29:53 Advocating for a VBAC
32:14 A spiritual dream
34:34 Gestational hypertension
39:36 Signing an AMA
41:31 Going to the hospital
45:20 Pushing for 20 minutes
47:30 White coat syndrome
51:59 Symptoms of hypertension and preeclampsia
54:52 Tips for hypertension and preeclampsia 
56:55 Karen’s final tips

Meagan: Hello, hello. We are getting into almost our 300th episode, you guys. Every single time I’m recording and I’m looking at these numbers, I am blown away. I cannot believe that we have almost put out 300 episodes. Oh my goodness. I am so glad that you are here. 

I have this energy this year. I don’t know what it is. You’ll have to let me know if you notice it, but I have this energy every time I’m recording this podcast. 2024 is vibing. I’m vibing with it. I’m really liking it. 

We have our friend Karen and are you from Florida, Karen? 

Karen: Yep. I’m in Orlando, Florida. 

Meagan: Florida. That’s what I was thinking. So if we have Florida mamas looking for providers, this is definitely an episode. I feel like probably weekly we would get 10 messages asking about providers and Florida is huge so Florida is actually one that is really common where we are getting messages for supportive providers. 

So Karen, along the way, if you feel to name-drop some providers that are supportive, feel free to do so but we are going to get into sharing her story in just one moment because we do have a Review of the Week. 

3:46 Review of the Week 
Meagan: This is from louuuhuuuu. So louuuhuuuu, thank you for your review. They say that this is “very inspirational.” It says, “I knew I wanted a VBAC with my third pregnancy, but I wasn’t sure if it was possible. However, I knew I didn’t feel like being flat-out told, ‘No’ at the first appointment. Listening to the podcast was definitely the start of me really researching birth and looking into my options. I ended up with a successful HBA2C and I definitely don’t think I would have had the courage or believed it was possible without this podcast. Thank you, Meagan, for all of the work that you do to provide this information.” 

I love that review so much. I think that through time in my own research, I was told no. I wasn’t told, “No, no.” I was told, “Sure, probably yeah. You could VBAC,” but I never really got that positive vibe. I feel like this commun

Jennifer joins us today sharing her HBA3C story! Each birth was a stepping stone that gave her more education and wisdom which ultimately led to her home birth after three Cesareans. Jennifer’s first Cesarean was due to meconium in the water, slow progress, and heart rate issues. Her other two Cesareans were scheduled, but her third was particularly difficult because in her heart, Jennifer really wanted a VBAC. 

After regretting her decision to get her tubes tied during her third Cesarean, Jennifer opted for a reversal and it worked! Once pregnant with her fourth, she traveled two hours each way across state lines to find a home birth midwife. When labor began, Jennifer booked an Airbnb, called in her team, and had the beautiful home birth she knew she was capable of.

Jennifer’s Website
Needed Website
How to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for Parents
Full Transcript under Episode Details 

02:20 Review of the Week
05:02 First C-section
06:48 Second C-section
08:02 Third C-section during COVID
10:09 Getting her tubes tied and reversal
13:38 Fourth pregnancy
16:39 Finding a home birth midwife in another state
19:02 Going into labor and reserving an Airbnb
24:04 Complete dilation
26:37 Pushing and catching her baby
31:24 You are worth it


Meagan: Hello, hello everybody. This is Meagan, your host here at The VBAC Link and we have our friend, Jennifer. Hi Jennifer. 

Jennifer: Hi. 

Meagan: You guys, her story– we were just talking about this before the episode. It has a lot of surprises like, “Oh, I didn’t expect that. Whoa.” So I’m so excited to– I’ve read a summary of her story and am now excited to hear it in her own words. I also thought it was kind of fun. She was just saying her kids are excited to hear her story because they know The VBAC Link podcast too. 

Jennifer: Yep. It was part of our preparation for the birth just having them hear stuff and hear how births are because obviously, they’d never had any experience. 

Meagan: Yes, so how old are your kids? 

Jennifer: 11. 9, 3 and now newborn. 

Meagan:  And now newborn. We have very similar-aged kids. 11 and 9 and then I have an 8-year-old this year. And then we jump. That is so exciting. I’m excited to get into your HBAC after three Cesareans and all of the fun things away. 

02:20 Review of the Week
Meagan: But I do have a Review of the Week and this review is from mcgrace. I actually think I know who this is. It says, “Must listen for every mom-to-be.” It says, “This podcast is a must-listen not just for the mom preparing for a VBAC but anyone who is giving birth and has given birth or plans to give birth in the U.S. Meagan wonderfully walks through personal stories while preparing helpful advocacy tips and a solid dose of empowerment in each episode. If you want to hear people discussing their path to VBAC, if you’re curious about what giving birth looks like in the U.S., and if you want tips on how to mentally, emotionally, and physically prepare yourself for the best birth, listen to this podcast.” 

Thank you so much for that review. 

Jennifer: Totally. I 100% agree. 

Meagan: That is so sweet. I do agree with her. Yes, VBAC is in the title of this podcast, but it really is for anyone. 

Jennifer: Totally. 

Meagan: And everyone wanting to give birth. 

Jennifer: Definitely. 

Meagan: I feel like if I had this podcast when I was preparing for my daughter Lainey, that would have changed a lot. 

Jennifer: Yes. If I had listened before my first birth, I feel like so much would have and could have been different. 

Meagan: Could have been different. I know. I’m so grateful for all of the Women of Strength who are sharing on this podcast and who are sharing on social media. By the way, we are accepting stories for our social media because we do have a lot of submissions on the podcast and we can’t get to everyone. We would love to still share every story possible, so if you are interested in sharing your s

"She was in my arms while she took her first breath and she was just so calm and beautiful. It feels like time just stops at that moment. It was so, so special to me."

From turning down the opportunity to take a childbirth class during her first pregnancy to now passionately teaching her own classes (She Births Bravely) as a childbirth educator and attending births as a doula, Suzzie shares how birth has changed her. 

Located in Seattle, Suzzie talks about how her birth team created a safe place for her to have a peaceful home birth that was still very intense but didn’t feel that way. 

Meagan and Suzzie discuss pushing, continuous care, the importance of education, and their best tips on what to do during pregnancy to have an empowering birth experience no matter the outcome. 

Suzzie’s Childbirth Class
Suzzie’s Website
What Does Your Birth Plan Say About Your Personality Quiz
Real Food For Pregnancy
Needed Website
How to VBAC: The Ultimate Prep Course for Parents
Full Transcript under Episode Details

02:28 Review of the Week
03:53 Suzzie’s molar pregnancy
06:27 Beginning labor with fear and doubt
09:01 “It has been over 24 hours. It’s time for you to have a C-section.”
10:51 Making friends with a student-midwife
14:41 Suzzie’s second pregnancy and labor
18:50 Baby Hazel’s birth
27:06 OBs attending home births
30:40 Continuous care during home birth
36:23 Birth preparation tips
43:29 Knowing what questions to ask
48:18 Waters being broken for 24 hours
50:31 Checking in if labor stalls


Meagan: Hello, hello Women of Strength. How are you? This is Meagan, your host here at The VBAC Link. I’m excited to talk a little bit today about what can we do before we have our baby or what should we do when we get pregnant to start preparing for birth. 

We have our friend, Suzzie, with us today. Hello, Suzzie. 

Suzzie: Hi. 

Meagan: She is actually a doula and childbirth educator who has a lot of passion in sharing a message of what to do and how to prep and how to navigate through this amazing journey that we call pregnancy and birth and motherhood. She had an unexpected Cesarean just like a lot of us. If we go through most of these stories on the podcast, you’re going to hear that trend of it wasn’t expected. It wasn’t planned. It maybe wasn’t desired. That’s a common thing in our VBAC community. It’s important to know what to do and what to know because most of us just didn’t know what we didn’t know. 

02:28 Review of the Week
Meagan: So we are going to dive into a little bit more of how to prepare and a message from our darling Suzzie, but of course, we have a Review of the Week so we are going to get into that before we get into the next part. 

This is from kimberlyspair. Thank you, Kimberly. We love her. She says, “Thumbs up from us! Sharing such an essential message with love and compassion.” 

That is exactly what we are going to do today, sharing another message with love and compassion. As always, if you have a minute, we would love your review. You can leave it on 
Apple Podcasts, Google, message us at info@thevbaclink.com. Remember VBAC is V-B-A-C and let us know what you think about the show. 

03:53 Suzzie’s molar pregnancy
Meagan: Okay, cute Suzzie. So we were talking right before we got on the episode. You guys, she had her C-section birth at a hospital local to me here in Utah then went on to have an HBAC. Was your HBAC in Washington? Where was your home birth? 

Suzzie: It was. I live in Seattle and it was here in Washington. 

Meagan: Okay, cool. So Seattle, Washington mamas, listen up if you are looking for options for a provider. Yeah, so you talked a little bit about how birth taught you how much more capable you really are than you thought. I think that is something that happens a lot with us, right? We walk through this birth journey and we are like, “Dang, we are amazing.” We really, really, really are. Yeah, so Suzzie, tell us about your stori