Admiral Mike Rogers joins hosts Nathan Kiker and George Bogden to assess how cyber deterrence, disinformation, and rapid advances in AI are reshaping strategic competition. Rogers argues that the United States’ most consequential vulnerability is domestic: deep polarization that blocks consensus on hard problems—public debt, social programs, and technology governance—making solutions more costly the longer they’re deferred. The result is a political system struggling to keep pace with a security environment defined by speed, interdependence, and information manipulation. Rogers contends that credible cyber deterrence remains elusive. Adversaries still view peacetime cyber operations and influence campaigns as low-cost, low-risk tools to impose friction on the United States and its allies. He calls for a broader, risk-informed menu of response options—some signaled publicly—to shift adversary cost-benefit calculations, backed by consistent attribution and the capacity to impose costs across domains. The conversation examines critical infrastructure exposure in an era of dense interconnection and fragile dependencies, from power grids and ports to finance, communications, and GPS/PNT. Despite notable improvements since NotPetya and Colonial Pipeline, Rogers warns that complexity creates hidden failure modes that demand anticipatory standards, cross-sector exercises, and sharper prioritization of high-impact, high-probability risks. On AI, Rogers separates hype from operational reality. He highlights the true costs of development and deployment, the likelihood of a tiered model ecosystem rather than a frontier-model default, and the regulatory lag behind private-sector innovation—especially as China and Russia pursue state-driven approaches. His near-term worry is less a technical catastrophe than a breakdown in societal cohesion catalyzed by technology; his optimism comes from motivated innovators building guardrails and tools that strengthen, rather than corrode, open societies. 00:00 Introduction to Admiral Mike Rogers 00:32 America's Biggest National Security Challenge 06:24 Global Threats Beyond U.S. Politics 08:19 AI, Emerging Technology & Government Regulation 10:09 China's Artificial Intelligence Strategy 17:04 How China Could Attack America's Infrastructure 22:34 Why Governments Struggle to Assess Risk 25:07 America's Offensive Cyber Capabilities 28:58 Should the U.S. Be More Aggressive in Cyberspace? 34:20 Why Cyber Deterrence Is Failing 38:52 The One Scenario That Worries Mike Rogers Most 42:04 Why Technology Still Gives Him Hope About the Guest Admiral Mike Rogers is the former Director of the National Security Agency and Commander of U.S. Cyber Command (2014–2018). A retired four-star U.S. Navy officer, he previously led U.S. Fleet Cyber Command/Tenth Fleet and brings decades of experience at the intersection of signals intelligence, cyber operations, and national security strategy. Support the show
