Stories in this episode: Brett's charge to defend a man who has committed heinous crimes is almost too much to bear until a desperate plea to God in the middle of the courtroom restores his hope; As a new judge, Carey faces a crisis of conscience when a temple recommend interview offers new insight; When Jennifer is unfairly judged by her colleagues, the consequences send her into a bitter tailspin that only a vivid dream from heaven can stop. View shownotes at LDSLiving.com/thisisthegospel Follow us on instagram and facebook @thisisthegospel_podcast Transcript: KaRyn 0:03 Welcome to "This Is the Gospel," an LDS Living podcast where we feature real stories from real people who are practicing and living their faith every day. I'm your host KaRyn Lay. And I am proud to say that I have only been in front of a judge in a courtroom once in my life. Apparently, if you're trying to kill a spider that drops from the rearview mirror while driving, and you rear end a brand new Jeep in the state of Virginia, you have to show up in court to explain that to a judge, the police, and a courtroom full of only semi-amused onlookers. And I'm the kind of person that already thinks I'm guilty of things that I haven't done, but this time I actually had done it so I was doubly intimidated to stand in that courtroom and explain myself. I didn't really know what to expect. I was all alone, I was really nervous and feeling really stupid. So when the judge called me to the front of the courtroom to plead my case, I was shaky. I stood there, I offered my tail of spiders, and woe, and after a surprising amount of good natured laughter from the people in the courtroom, the judge said that she, for one, could totally understand how a spider might distract someone from being fully focused on the road, and that this could have happened to anyone. So she ordered me to pay the court fees, but otherwise, I was free and clear of any charges or additional penalties imposed by the court. That's not to say that I didn't have any consequences, because I felt those the minute that I saw my car insurance premium spike. Her mercy didn't supplant justice, but I was really grateful that in her determination of the best interest of the law, she was willing to listen to the context of the situation. And I left that courtroom feeling surprisingly better than when I entered, which is saying a whole lot. Well, whether or not you've had to stand before a judge in Virginia and tell your spider story, this idea of judgment and what constitutes good judgment is something that as a disciple of Christ might be on your mind anyway. We're all facing a really complex world with sometimes seemingly impossible decisions to make. And if it isn't on your mind, then maybe today's theme will give you some space to think about how judgment is connected to our desire to be a better follower of Christ. We've got three stories from three people who really needed some help honing their understanding of what constitutes good judgment, in the eyes of God. Our first story comes from Brett, a lawyer tasked with defending the indefensible. Here's Brett, Brett 2:33 The hard part about being a prosecutor is that there are some times when the things the person accused of are so harsh, that it's really hard to see the humanity behind the allegations. I am an attorney and I have both prosecuted and defended people who were accused of some very bad things. On the prosecution side, I get to work closely with victims of crimes, I get to see the pain they are going through, and I get to try to help them make sense of it and hopefully get some kind of resolution. I see the horrific nature of the things that the accused has done, and you want to really make sure that things like that get punished in that, people in society have an idea that laws will be followed and that there are consequences. More often than not, though, in that situation, you do not get to know the alleged offender. Usually they have an attorney and you aren't allowed to talk to them and see the things that led them to where they were. You don't get to see the small acts of kindness or joy or love that they have both received and given to others. You really don't get to see what makes them human. And sometimes that's kind of hard to do, especially when the things they've been accused of are pretty horrific. There was a time when I was on the defense side, and it started like many cases with the judge reading the things that he was accused of. And even just the nature of the things was pretty lengthy. It was something like 13 pages long, the indictment, and my client had chosen to plead guilty to just about everything. But in this forum, before that court, the people accused of crimes, my client, was not allowed to simply say, "Yes, I'm guilty to charges 1 through 13 and I accept whatever punishment you deem appropriate, Judge." But rather, the judge needs to go through the conduct in what we call "Providence Inquiry," where the judge needs to make sure that my client understood what the law was, understood all of the definitions, and then agreed to his actions and agree that his actions actually violated the law. Now, as both a prosecutor and a defense attorney, you get used to being around some of the most disturbing and criminal conduct that people can do. And you have to look at it and make sure yourself what the law says about those things. So you can either prosecute or defend. And so we were going through this, and usually that doesn't take too long. You can always do that in waves. You can do it for 20 minutes, 30 minutes at a time, take a break, and come back to it when you're feeling up to it. But in this case, because it was so long, we had just pressed through, and for about two hours, we had been listening and seeing some of the most disturbing things that you can be subjected to. And as we're going through this, I started to feel literally sick to my stomach. I was getting to a point of almost panic, because it was incredibly unprofessional to throw up in the middle of a courtroom. But what I was more concerned about was my client, because one of the great things that I do love about being a defense attorney is that you get to help some people go through some very difficult things. In many instances it is the most difficult, embarrassing, humiliating experience of their lives. And this was that for my client, and for him to see how much it affected me, I thought could undermine his confidence in me and my belief in him. And he had already lost so much. He lost his family, he lost his job, he was losing his freedom. He had some elderly parents, and it was unlikely that he would see them again before his prison term ended. And I wanted to be there for him. And so when this was happening, I knew that I had to get up in just a few minutes after that was done, and argue for him, both to argue for leniency–to paint a picture of humanity for him–and also to argue about different things that he was alleged of, that he had not done, and defend him in those. And so not knowing what to do, I thought, well, maybe I just need to ask the judge for a recess, or, you know, maybe the feeling will just go away. Then I realized that it wasn't. It was getting worse. And so I did the only thing that I can think of, I decided to say a prayer. And in that prayer, I just prayed for Heavenly Father to be with me to help me to know what to do in that situation. I looked over at my client, and I felt the spirit enter my mind and body with, like, great waves. It was amazing. It kind of lit up my whole soul. And I could see the love that my Heavenly Father had for this young man. It was regardless of the things that he had done, it was regardless of the harm and pain he had caused so many. It was a pure and powerful love. And when I felt that the nausea, the sickness, it just evaporated, like instantaneously. I was calm, I knew what I had to do, and I was able to get up and argue for him, for mercy, and to paint a picture for the judge to see who he was, not just the things that he had done. No matter what kind of trial, the situation has stayed with me. I always try to understand and see these people as my Heavenly Father sees them. It's no justification or excuse for whatever they've done, but it helps me to always go back to this to understand that even those who have done some of the most horrific things, that we are very much more similar than we are different. We are all much, much better than the worst things that we've done. And it changed me in a lot of ways. And I'm very grateful for that. KaRyn 8:54 That was Brett. I can only imagine what kind of spiritual gifts it takes to sit in a courtroom and listen day after day to all the ways that people have hurt one another without losing your hope in humanity. Brett's willingness to ask for help from heaven, so that he could perceive what seemed absolutely imperceptible in his client, especially as that list of offenses was read, that's a real example to me of truly offering your will to God. And in this particular case, "Good judgment" didn't mean ignoring what was broken in the person sitting next to him. It actually meant that Brett could experience firsthand the dichotomy that comes with being human, which is that we can be capable of doing terrible things, and somehow also be worthy of divine love. It reminded me of the prophet Jacob, who is given the gift to perceive the evil that lurks in the hearts of his people, while also recognizing the love that God had for them in his desire for them to repent. It was this ability to feel both things at the same time that I think allowed Jacob to speak those hard things, to call those people to repentance, and to do it with a power that could actually change hearts. I personally believe that this capacity to hold space for that dichotomy is exactly
