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This podcast is brought to you by the Law Practice Division of the American Bar Association. 

  1. AI Hallucinations in Court The Sullivan & Cromwell Lesson

    vor 1 Tag

    AI Hallucinations in Court The Sullivan & Cromwell Lesson

    Recorded as a fireside chat at the ABA Law Practice Division Spring Meeting in San Diego, this special episode examines reports that Sullivan & Cromwell filed a brief containing nonexistent or inaccurate case citations and later apologized to opposing counsel and the court. Steve Embry, Jennifer Ellis, and Michael Eisenberg discuss why AI hallucinations continue to appear in legal filings despite widespread awareness of the risks. They point to ignored firm policies, time pressure, overreliance on confident-sounding AI outputs, and a lack of understanding of generative AI's limitations as key contributing factors. The discussion also explores how these failures relate to lawyers' ethical duties of competence, candor, and supervision. The speakers emphasize that legal citations should always be independently verified using traditional legal research tools—not AI—such as Shepardizing in Lexis or Westlaw. They also stress that proper training and experience are essential for recognizing unreliable AI-generated results. 00:00 – AI Hallucinations Hit BigLaw 00:37 – Show Intro and Disclaimer 01:16 – Sullivan & Cromwell Brief Fallout 02:19 – Why Lawyers Keep Getting Burned 04:19 – Competence Rules and Citation Checks 06:53 – Workflow Reality Check 08:55 – Training to Spot Hallucinations 10:45 – Verifying Citations Without AI Tools 12:55 – Closing Thoughts and Wrap-Up 13:02 – Podcast Outro and Resources

    14 Min.
  2. Avoiding AI Hallucinations in Legal Practice

    15. Juni

    Avoiding AI Hallucinations in Legal Practice

    This Law Practice Podcast fireside chat with Alan Klevan, Jennifer Ellis, and Steve Embry discusses recent court responses to lawyers filing AI-hallucinated or fabricated citations, focusing on the Oregon appeals decision in Williams. The panel explains that the court emphasized Rule 3.3’s duty of candor to both the court and opposing counsel, criticizing the lawyer not only for including fabricated authorities but also for attempting a “quiet correction” without acknowledging the problem. They discuss growing judicial frustration, the likelihood of sanctions and disciplinary referrals, and examples of suspensions. The speakers stress that generative AI hallucinations are inherent, so lawyers must verify every citation by checking links and reading cases, use appropriate research tools, learn effective prompting techniques, and promptly disclose and remedy any errors rather than conceal them. 00:00 AI Hallucinations Intro 01:08 Fireside Chat Setup 02:42 Williams Case Breakdown 03:24 Candor Rule And Quiet Fix 05:21 Sanctions And Discipline 07:45 Protecting Public Trust 08:34 How To Prevent Hallucinations 10:14 Verification And Tooling Tips 11:57 Why AI Hallucinates 12:59 Wrap Up And Resources

    14 Min.
  3. How AI Is Changing Legal Billing and Client Value

    8. Juni

    How AI Is Changing Legal Billing and Client Value

    In this Law Practice Podcast fireside chat on “Billing in the Age of AI,” host Jim Calloway is joined by Julie Bays, Director of the Management Assistance Program at the Oklahoma Bar Association, and Wendy Meadows, a family law attorney in Maryland and coaching consultant for small and solo law firms. Together, they discuss how AI is changing the way lawyers think about billing, value, and client communication. The conversation centers on the “efficiency paradox”: when AI helps lawyers complete certain tasks faster, how should that speed be reflected in the client’s bill? Wendy shares how her practice has shifted toward a hybrid billing model, using flat fees for document-based work like complaints and marital settlement agreements, while continuing to bill hourly for meetings, phone calls, and other client-facing work. Julie emphasizes that invoices should do more than request payment — they should help clients understand the value of the work performed. Even when AI makes legal work more efficient, lawyers still bring years of judgment, experience, and legal strategy to the final product. The panel also discusses the importance of clearly outlining billing structures in engagement agreements, continuing to track time even for flat-fee work, and setting limits when a matter exceeds the original scope. They also highlight the need for client disclosures around AI use, including warnings about placing attorney work product or confidential documents into public AI platforms. Finally, the conversation explores how AI-driven efficiency may help lawyers expand their ability to take on pro bono and low-bono work. Rather than viewing AI only as a billing challenge, the speakers frame it as an opportunity to improve access to justice, increase capacity, and encourage lawyers to adopt AI thoughtfully — one small step at a time. 00:00 Welcome and Overview 00:33 Show Disclaimer 01:12 Billing in the Age of AI 01:15 Meet the Panelists 01:35 Invoices as Value Proof 02:11 Hybrid Billing in Practice 03:35 Engagement Terms and Time Caps 04:24 AI Disclosures and Confidentiality 05:23 Efficiency and Access to Justice 06:22 Closing Takeaways 07:05 Outro and Resources

    8 Min.
  4. The Lawyer’s Passport to AI, Cybersecurity, and Global Opportunity

    1. Juni

    The Lawyer’s Passport to AI, Cybersecurity, and Global Opportunity

    On the Law Practice Today podcast, host Terrell speaks with Betania Allo, an Argentinian lawyer with graduate studies in international relations (Harvard) and an LLM (Syracuse) who is finishing a doctor of engineering in cybersecurity analytics at George Washington. Allo describes her work at the intersection of law, policy, international security, and emerging technologies, including roles at the UN in New York and in Saudi Arabia on the NEOM smart-city project leading cybersecurity culture and awareness for thousands of employees and contractors. Now head of TMT, AI governance, and privacy at Legaltracks in Riyadh, she discusses bridging regulators and innovators, the human factor in cybersecurity, differences in global regulatory priorities, and practical advice for lawyers seeking international opportunities through study, networking, and conferences. 00:00 Networking Opens Doors 00:21 Podcast Welcome Disclaimer 01:00 Meet Betania Allo 01:58 From Argentina to Cybersecurity 04:27 Balancing PhD and Work 05:39 Law Degree as Passport 09:02 Cybersecurity Culture Worldwide 10:47 Saudi Vision and AI Policy 12:36 Finding Global Legal Roles 13:37 Conferences and Speaking Gigs 14:33 Bridging Lawyers and Engineers 16:17 Build Your Network 17:19 Where to Find Betania 17:44 Final Thanks and Outro

    18 Min.
  5. Staying Irreplaceable in the Age of AI

    18. Mai

    Staying Irreplaceable in the Age of AI

    On the Law Practice Podcast, Terrell and guest Rachel Clar discuss whether AI is “breaking” the legal industry and how it is compressing the timeline for lawyers, especially women in Big Law, to become irreplaceable and reach income or equity partnership. Rachel, an attorney and founder of Interconnected Us, argues that protecting career trajectory increasingly requires building a book of business, noting a Major, Lindsey & Africa study showing average rainmaking gaps (men $3.9M vs women $2.4M) that affect compensation. She shares her trademarked BNRI framework: Branding (self-awareness and a clear niche beyond practice area), Networking (identifying where target clients and decision-makers gather, using AI and LinkedIn research), Rainmaking/relational selling (making the ask and handling rejection), and Influence (amplifying value and building internal allies for partnership). She also offers resources via LinkedIn and interconnectedus.com, including a legal conference cheat sheet. 00:00 AI Compresses Partnership 00:34 Is AI Breaking the Law 01:08 Meet Rachel Claire 02:25 Women Leadership Pressure 03:16 Origination Gap Numbers 04:18 Timeline Before AI 05:42 Dinner Party Advice 07:17 BNRI Branding First 08:50 Networking With AI 10:15 Relational Selling Ask 11:43 Influence Inside Firm 13:10 How To Connect 13:58 Free Conference Cheat Sheet 14:39 Why This Work Matters 16:50 Closing Thanks

    16 Min.
  6. Rethinking Business Development: Small Actions, Stronger Relationships

    11. Mai

    Rethinking Business Development: Small Actions, Stronger Relationships

    On the Law Practice podcast, host Terrell Turner welcomes back Deb Feder, a former big law and in-house lawyer turned consultant, to discuss practical business development and client relationship strategies for lawyers. Feder explains her approach to business development as three parts: growing your network, nurturing relationships, and sharing expertise, emphasizing that it’s often overcomplicated and can be done in small daily actions. She encourages simple, human connections (starting with “hello”), asking better client-focused questions, and avoiding assumptions, such as making AI the center of every client conversation; instead, lawyers should gauge clients’ interest and use AI tools thoughtfully without sacrificing trust. Feder advises building habits early and shares quick examples like check-ins, follow-ups after conferences, and keeping topic lists, along with a monthly calendar of five-minute tasks available on her website. 00:00 Five Minute Business Development 00:23 Podcast Welcome and Disclaimer 01:01 Meet Deb Feder 01:33 From Lawyer to Consultant 03:11 Why Client Questions Matter 05:00 Business Development Basics 07:12 Stop Overcomplicating Networking 10:29 AI in Client Conversations 15:16 Build the Daily Habit 16:38 Five Minute Task Ideas 18:06 Resources and Wrap Up

    18 Min.
  7. Avoiding Burnout: Building a Sustainable Legal Career

    4. Mai

    Avoiding Burnout: Building a Sustainable Legal Career

    On the Law Practice podcast, host Terrell interviews career coach and former attorney Dena Lefkowitz about navigating a legal career without burning out. Dena shares how, after over 20 years practicing law, she realized law school didn’t prepare lawyers for the business of law—networking, marketing, and sales—and that lawyers themselves must generate business. She describes feeling embarrassed after discovering that litigation was a poor fit for her personality and values, and warns against “doubling down” on past decisions when a role harms your health or life. Dena explains using values and the five-factor personality traits (openness, conscientiousness, extroversion/introversion, agreeableness, neuroticism) to evaluate fit, and discusses finding outlets or pivots when misaligned. She recounts a back injury that prompted a change to in-house counsel work aligned with her values, and highlights her book, "Winning in Your Own Court." 00:00 Lawyers Are Miserable 00:12 Podcast Intro Disclaimer 00:50 Meet Dena Lefkowitz 01:33 Two Things Law School Missed 02:23 Wrong Practice Area Realization 04:20 Embarrassment And Sunk Costs 06:17 Trapped By Lifestyle Choices 07:50 Values Driven Career Pivot 08:50 Big Five Personality Factors 10:32 Misalignment And Mental Health 13:00 Injury Forced A Change 14:24 Book Title And Key Laws 15:44 How To Contact Dena 16:15 Final Thanks And Outro

    17 Min.
  8. A Practical Guide for Lawyers When Choosing the Right Legal Tech

    27. Apr.

    A Practical Guide for Lawyers When Choosing the Right Legal Tech

    Live at the ABA TECHSHOW, host Terrell interviews Jay McAllister of Paragon Tech about how law firms should evaluate legal technology, especially AI, with a skeptical, results-driven approach. Jay explains that marketing hype often overstates capabilities, using software “integrations” as an example, where firms must check whether syncing is unidirectional or bidirectional. He ties vendor due diligence to lawyers’ duty of competence, urging firms to understand the benefits and risks of new tech and to ask what large language model powers a tool and, more importantly, what primary legal data sources it uses to reduce hallucinations. Jay describes Paragon’s “Leverage AI” framework, starting with identifying a firm’s limiting operational constraint, and shares a case where a custom GPT cut discovery chronology work from over an hour to five minutes with human verification. 00:00 Live From TECHSHOW 00:20 Meet Jay And Paragon 00:58 Why Stay Skeptical 01:24 Integration Claims Explained 02:57 Vendor Due Diligence 03:35 Ai Model Hype Check 05:59 Ask About Data Sources 08:45 Leverage AI Framework 09:14 Case Study Discovery Timeline 10:49 Human In The Loop 11:51 Pick The Right Tool 12:50 Show Floor Wrap Up 13:36 Closing Thanks

    15 Min.
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This podcast is brought to you by the Law Practice Division of the American Bar Association. 

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