Beyond Ordinary Women Podcast

Beyond Ordinary Women Ministries
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Everyone has influence, which is the basis of leadership. BOW’s bi-weekly episodes are purposed to prepare and empower Christian women for leadership and life. They feature our ministry team and women guests who share from their professional ministry experience. Whatever your calling – influencing your neighbors, coworkers, family, friends, leading small groups – this podcast is for you.

  1. vor 4 Tagen

    Women Saints We Should Know

    Dr. Kelley Mathews Sharifa Stevens If you, like most of us in this audience, are Protestant, be prepared for a treat as you listen to this conversation about women saints we should know. Dr. Kelley Mathews joins host Sharifa Stevens to discuss a number of women from the early church who were named saints because of their faith and actions. You'll come away excited and perhaps surprised as you hear about these godly women who played major roles in church history. They teach us great lessons from their love for the Lord, their tenacity and bold courage. Recommended resources BOW's resources on Studying and Teaching the Bible Hildegard: A playlist of her music and her biography The Passions of Perpetua and Felicity Augustine's sermon (#280) on Perpetua & Felicity Monica  We learn most of our content about her in Augustine's Confessions. Clare: Biography Read her "Rule" Brigid article This episode is available on video as well. Timestamps: 00:21 Introductions 02:37 The difference between knowing and venerating the saints 03:40 Perpetua and Felicity, martyrs 12:10 Monica, Augustine's mother 19:29 Brigid of Kildare 27:35 Hildegard of Bingen 34:18 Clare of Assisi 41:32 Other resources TranscriptSharifa >> Welcome to Beyond Ordinary Women. I'll be your host for today, Sharifa Stevens. And today our topic is going to be about women, saints that we all should know about. I'm really excited to dig into this topic, and we're going to have our expert Dr. Kelley Mathews, explain more to us about these women whom we should know. And I want to tell you about Kelley. I bet most of you know Dr. Kelley already. But let me tell you a little bit more, just in case. Kelley Mathews, Dr. Kelley Mathews, has ministered to the church through writing and editing for over 25 years. She's a coauthor of eight books, including 40 Questions About Women in Ministry. And also she's a freelance writer and editor. A former women's ministry director and Bible study teacher. Kelley has been married to John, a school administrator, for almost 29 years. They are parents to four active, mostly grown children. Kelley earned her Master of Theology from Dallas Theological Seminary and earned a Doctor of Ministry in New Testament from Houston Theological Seminary just in 2025. Welcome. Now, I can't call you Dr. Kelley. Why? Kelley >> You kind of overdid it there. That's all. Sharifa >> That's my job. It's my job to overdo it. Kelley >> Okay. Okay. I'll take it from you. Not from anybody else, though. No, it's so new. It's still very strange to hear it. So that's all. Sharifa >> You earned it. So I'm using it. Kelley >> I had a lot of fun in that program, so if I could still go back to class, I would. You know, I shouldn't say that too loudly around here. Sharifa >> Tuition-free class? Yeah. Kelley >> Yeah. No, it was a great program over in Houston. So and that's a lot of what we're going to cover today is what I studied there. So yeah. Sharifa >> Excellent. Well let's dive in. We're discussing women saints who we should know. But before we get into the specific saints, I just wanted to know, is knowing the saints the same as venerating or worshiping them? Kelley >> No. Absolutely not. This is basically history. And I was a history major for my bachelor's degree. And so coming full circle with this theological study, I naturally went to the history of the church. So New Testament kind of morphed also into the early church, those first few centuries of what was the church getting up to? And so knowing the people. I mean I would assume that a lot of Christians would recognize names like Augustine or Aquinas or maybe Saint Francis or Luther. We're just giving you female equivalents, basically. So, yes, just as there were fathers of the church, there were mothers of the church. Sharifa >> I dig it. Thank you. Okay, so let's get into specifics.

  2. 28. Juli

    Bible Teaching that Sticks

    In this fun episode, BOW's guest, Dr. Nika Spaulding, shares how to create Bible teaching that sticks. In other words, how can you, as a Bible teacher, use tangible teaching tools to help your audience remember the biblical point of your teaching? Using the senses, physical teaching aids and play will enable you to enable others to better grasp and possibly clarify deeper biblical concepts. Recommended resources nikaspaulding.com BOW resource "Choosing Powerful Illustrations and Applications" on video or BOW podcast. Made to Stick by Chip & Dan Heath Nika's decks of cards: Gospel cards (coming soon) & Minor Prophets cards Bible Bricks This episode is also available on video. Timestamps: 00:20 Introductions 01:26 Why use teaching aids? 02:30 What teaching aids do we see in the Bible? 07:42 God's teaching aid: Ezekiel 09:18 Physical teaching aids 29:07 Learning through play 37:04 Other resources   TranscriptKay >> Hi. I'm Kay Daigle. Welcome to the Beyond Ordinary Women Podcast. Today, our guest is Nika Spaulding. Nika >> Hey, Kay. Kay >> Welcome, Nika. It's always so much fun to have you. And for those of you who know Nika, Nika has been on our podcast many times and so we’re always thrilled when she has time to be with us. She has a masters of Theology from Dallas Seminary. She actually went to Oklahoma University, but we don't really care about that part. And she has a Doctor of Ministry degree from Northern Seminary. So she's Dr. Spaulding. But I will not call her that. I will call you Nika. Nika >> Thank you. Kay >> Nika is really sort of our go to person for hard questions and about teaching the Bible. And so today we are talking about teaching the Bible, and we're going to talk about using teaching aids in teaching the Bible. So Nika why do teachers need to use teaching aids? Nika >> Yeah, it's such a good question. And I don't know, Kay, if you've had like your philosophy of teaching develop on this. I would say for me, this is a more recent addition to how I teach the Bible, and that is—when I was a young teacher, I kind of wanted to teach all these cool, nifty things that maybe people didn't know on their own. And now I really, really just want to make the Bible stick. I want when people leave for them to remember what we talked about, for them to be able to meditate on it. And what I have found is, you know, you probably think back to your experience when you were in elementary, junior high, high school, and you think about lessons that really stuck. There's a chance that your teacher used some sort of teaching, some sort of illustration, or maybe they brought something in the classroom or something like that. I have discovered just over the years that using teaching aids, whether it's props or engaging the senses or something like that, really allows us to help the Bible stick and that's really the goal with the teaching aids. Kay >> Great. So what are what are some of the things that you do see things in the Bible that are teaching aids? Nika >> Yeah, no, absolutely. I think that's what's interesting about it is when you think about even let's say you want to teach wisdom, you go to the Book of Proverbs so often what you see from the Proverbs is they take stuff you already know, stuff from nature, stuff that you've experienced in life. And then they say, “Hey, this, this is what that's like.” So a perfect example is you might talk about honey is how the Word of God is. It's so sweet, right? And if you've ever tasted honey, especially pre modern food where we have sugar at our fingertips at all times, you kind of think about how like, am I? I'm sure in my pantry right now I can eat sugar, but in the ancient days, having that ability, honey, was a really sweet experience. So to compare that to the Bible, we see how the Bible also uses teaching as Jesus does. This in his parables all the time.

  3. 14. Juli

    Lamenting Current Events

    Jodie Niznik Kay Daigle Frequent guest Jodie Niznik joins Dr. Kay Daigle to explain how using the biblical pattern of lament can help us process and work through what we see and read about world, national or local events. There is much to grieve beyond our personal sorrows, and lament enables us to go to God in a healthy and healing way. Recommended resources Learning to Lament, a BOW study to prepare for walking through any time of grief, anger, or pain. BOW's two-part video/podcast series on Lament with Dr. Nika Spaulding: 1- Understanding Lament and 2- Practicing Lament. Our two-part series on anger: Does my Anger Matter to God? and The Gift of Anger. This episode is available on video if you prefer. Timestamps: 00:20 Introductions 01:40 What is lament? 03:09 Our culture (and especially the church) struggles to deal with hard emotions 06:59 What should we be lamenting about current events? 12:17 How does lament differ from complaining? 13:51 Three movements in lament 15:59 Practically speaking, how should we proceed? 23:19 How do we choose what to lament? 35:21 Resources to teach us more about lament and help us lament for ourselves TranscriptKay >> Hi. I am Kay Daigle of Beyond Ordinary Women Ministries. Welcome to our podcast. In this episode we are going to talk about lament. We're going to talk about lamenting current events. And our special guest is Jodie Niznik. Welcome, Jodie. Thank you for being here with us again. Jodie >> It's great to be with you again, Kay. Thanks for having me. Kay >> Well, we always love having you. Jodie is an author, a teacher and a speaker, and we have had her discuss many things that you can find on our website by just searching for Jodie Niznik if you go to BeyondOrdinaryWomen.org. So she is—I‘ll tell you a little bit about her. She has an undergraduate degree in broadcast journalism from the University of Colorado, and she has a degree in Christian education from Dallas Seminary with an emphasis in Christian Education, the same one that I have with Women's Ministry emphasis. So we trust you, Jodie. We are so happy to have you talking with us about lament. Just tell us a little bit about what lament is. Jodie >> Yeah. I'm glad that we're talking about lament, especially in our current cultural climate that we're finding ourselves in. Lament really is first and foremost, prayer. It's a way to take the things that are really painful, the things that are confusing, the things that we’re grieving to God. And to be really honest with him about wrestling through those things. And the thing I love about lament is it's modeled for us in Scripture. A third of the Psalms are lament Psalms. I just heard somebody say, “Maybe God knew that about a third of our days were going to be tough, and we needed to know how to lament.” And I thought, oh, yeah, I think he's probably right. So lament is modeled for us in Scripture. It's a way for us to process things that are confusing and painful with God, but it always leads us back to God. And the purpose is to lead us back to trusting God, even when we don't understand what's happening. Kay >> Absolutely. And, you know, lament is found all over the Bible, not just in the Psalms. Jodie >> Yeah. Kay >> So, you know, if you wonder about lament, it is very biblical. It's not just an Old Testament thing. It is all over the Bible. And don't you feel like our culture is not very good at knowing how to deal with grief, sorrow, and these current events that we're talking about now, we don't know what to do with our emotions. Jodie >> Yeah. I mean, and I think, I, I don't think we know what to do with our emotions. And I think unfortunately, the Christian church in particular does not know what to do with our emotions, and we should be the ones that actually know the most what to do with them, because we do know that there is a bigger story happening. And we do know that even though things feel rea...

  4. 16. Juni

    RelationSHIFT 3: God’s Dream Team

    Dr. Jackie Roese In this final episode of BOW's three-part series on relationships between men and women as the church, guest Dr. Jackie Roese describes living out that calling as God's dream team. Instead of seeing danger involving women, what if we saw one another as brothers and sisters in Christ? You won't want to miss this final episode that provides a glimpse of what a thriving partnership between the sexes would look like, God's dream team, and how that would affect the purpose of the church. Kay Daigle Resources If you missed them, go back and to the previous episodes in the RelationSHIFT series: 1. It's More Than Being Biblical and 2. It's More Than a Sex Narrative. All episodes are available on video only with others that deal with the issues of men and women. Timestamps: 00:21 Introduction to the series & Jackie 02:08 What does God's intention for men & women working together look like? 04:34 Understand our time & get educated. 06:42 Find a male advocate. 08:52 Jackie's example of a conversation with both men & women where women share their church experiences 10:47 Contacts & resources TranscriptKay >> Hi. I'm Kay Daigle of Beyond Ordinary Women Ministries. I'd like to welcome you to the third video in our series on It's Time for a RelationshipSHIFT. And we're talking about men and women working together as Christians. And I'm with Dr. Jackie Roese, who has a book, RelationSHIFT, as well as some other books. You can read about Jackie, and her material will be on our website as well. You can link to her ministry, The Marcella Project, as well as her material, because probably by now, if you've watched the first two, you want to hear more from Jackie. So we're about to do that. Now we're going to talk about God's dream team. We've talked about some of the problems with men and women in the church and some of the teaching that's behind some of that, some of the misconceptions that's behind that. And now we want to talk about what it would really look like. And I know as a woman who has volunteered in churches as well as been on staff, that sometimes you're quite aware that you have no voice in anything and you'd really like to change that. So how can we as women, affect some change in the church? Jackie >> Great. And that is the big million dollar question, isn't it? I would say first and foremost, we need brothers and sisters bringing change to the church, not just women. And we'll get to that. First and foremost, I think women need to get informed about God's bigger vision, about what did God intend for men and women to serve together collectively in the home, in the church, community, workplace. And I think probably one of the best descriptions out there right now is Carolyn Custis James' description of male and female called The Blessed Alliance. And I'm going to summarize it really quick. But basically, she says in Genesis 1 and 2, God formed the foundation of creation based on two load bearing walls. The first being humanity's relationship with God. And the second load bearing wall in which the world was supposed to operate was male and female relationships. Not just in marriage, which we tend to read only the Genesis passage in a marriage paradigm, but it's actually also talking about community brother, sister. And there's lots that I've written on that and so if that sounds different. But these two load-bearing walls is what the world was supposed to operate on. And together these two are given a mandate. They are to rule, subdue and fill the earth, which fill the earth does include procreation. But really beyond that, what it means is to create civilization. God throws raw material at them and says, have at it. Create societies, create cultures. And so that is the job of male and female and they do it together. So we need to see first and foremost that that is God's desire. We have done a great job of helping humanity reconnect with God.

  5. 2. Juni

    RelationSHIFT 2: It’s More than a Sex Narrative

    Dr. Jackie Roese Kay Daigle In this second episode of this series, Dr. Jackie Roese explains the problem with the church's sex narrative. Don't miss this important conversation as she talks with Dr. Kay Daigle about how making men's and women's relationships in the church all about sex is a mistake and why it matters. Many of us have been taught the church's sex narrative and may need to consider its effects. Other Resources Dr. Sandra Glahn on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood Dr. Sandra Glahn on Women in Public Ministry: 1. Revisiting the Issue as Individuals; 2. Revisiting the Issue as Churches. and 3. Misread Women of the Bible. This episode can be accessed on video along with the first episode, It's Time for a RelationSHIFT: It's more than being biblical. If you missed it, you can find the 1st BOW Podcast episode on seeking a RelationSHIFT between men and women in the church: It's More than Being Biblical. Timestamps: 00:21 Introductions 01:13 An example 02:52 Sensitivity toward those who have been abused 03:23 The danger narrative/danger-romance narrative in the Church. 07:36 Is this narrative biblical? 08:48 The biblical narrative TranscriptKay >> Hi. I'm Kay Daigle of Beyond Ordinary Women Ministries. I'd like to welcome you to the second in our series on It's Time for a RelationSHIFT dealing with men and women working together in the church. My guest is Dr. Jackie Roese. Jackie is the Founder and President of The Marcella Project. And you can read more about her and her ministry online on our website at BeyondOrdinaryWomen.org. And I hope you will take advantage of that so that you can even contact Jackie if you need to. Jackie, in our first video, we talked about the fact that the situation between men and women and the way that we work together in the church is more than just the biblical and theological beliefs that we have. In this video, we're going to talk about the fact that there's more involved than just a sex narrative. And I wanted to tell you that not too long ago, a friend highly praised a sermon that she had just heard, so I went online to hear the sermon. It was about men and women together. And I think in light of all of the various things, the sermon focused on how to avoid any kind of sexual contact with anyone of the other sex. But I was pretty horrified because really if you followed what it said, pretty much you wouldn't talk to many men. And he seemed to suggest he told a story about a pastor who was having a book signing and whose son said, why are you so rude to the women? He said, “Oh, they'll whisper their hotel room number in your ear. They'll give you their key.” It seemed to be perfectly fine, according to the sermon, to just be rude to women to avoid them tempting you sexually. So with that background of my horror, really, at thinking about how does somebody even do this in this age with work and things like that, I don't even think it's a practical solution. But even if it were, there's something wrong with treating people poorly just because you think they're a threat. So I want to hear what you had to say. Jackie >> Yeah. So, wow, there's a lot there. First, I would say not only is it wrong because it's not biblical. Kay >> Oh, yeah. Jackie >> So, and this person that you were listening to, they're still teaching this danger romance narrative as the only narrative we see in Scripture. And it's actually not the largest narrative we see. It's not the emphasis of the New Testament. And so I want to talk a little about that. Before I do, let me just say with the #MeToo #ChurchToo movement, there has been a lot of sexual exploitation. And I am very aware and want to be very sensitive to the fact that when there is sexual failure in the church or in the home, it's devastating. And I want to be sensitive to that because people have experienced that. It has blown up their church when their pastor has been inappropriate with a woman or...

  6. 19. Mai

    RelationSHIFT 1: It’s More than Being Biblical

    Dr. Jackie Roese Dr. Kay Daigle Dr. Jackie Roese joined Kay Daigle some time ago on video (before we started creating podcasts) to discuss Jackie's call for a shift in working relationships between men and women in the church. If you are in any type of leadership--whether paid or unpaid--in a church, you should hear this conversation. Jackie points out some of the walls that women often bump against when they attempt to get things done through men on church staffs. Thus we need a shift in working relationships between men and women in the church. You can now access the videos of the other two conversations. The podcast episodes will drop on 6/3/26 and 6/17/26: It's More Than a Sex Narrative God's Dream Team Other Related BOW Podcast Episodes Healthy Churches for Women Biblical Manhood & Womanhood Timestamps: 00:20 Introductions 01:15 Beyond the biblical passages, why do we need to relate better as men & women in the church? 04:04 This conversation is for women regardless of their position about what women can or cannot do in the church. 05:11 What walls that have nothing to do with the Bible sometimes get in the way of working well with men? TranscriptKay >> Hi. I'm Kay Daigle of Beyond Ordinary Women Ministries. I'd like to welcome you to our video series, It's Time for a RelationSHIFT. And our guest is Dr. Jackie Roese. I have known Jackie since we were in D.T.S. together. And I have been so looking forward to this conversation because this first video is going to be a conversation about It's More Than Being Biblical. And when we talk about a shift in relationships, we're talking about men and women in the church. With all that's been going on in the last couple of years with #metoo and #churchtoo, and all of those things, there's been a lot of conversation about men and women. And much of what I've heard, Jackie, is actually saying that it all has to do with our biblical view of women in the church. And yet you're saying it's more than the theology of women in the church, that there's more at stake here. So I'm very excited to hear what you have to say. Jackie >> Great. Well, thank you for having me here. I'm glad to be here. Yes. First, let me say it does have to do with the Bible. I've been with women who said, “Oh, we don't need to work with 1 Timothy 2. We don't need to figure out, you know, 1 Corinthians 11 or 14. We can just those are ancient texts. They don't apply to us in the modern world.” And so they just don't even want to deal with them. And I'm like, no, no time out. We have got to go and dig and do hard work in the text. We've got to understand those biblical passages. So it is about the Bible, but it is actually about more than the Bible. So what do I mean by that? We have men and women scholars who have in the conservative evangelical world who have studied these particular texts that seem to prohibit women from being fully inclusive in all different leadership roles in the church. And those men and women have landed on very different interpretations—same conservative evangelical faith, tradition, you know, orthodox theologians, and they disagree. Kay >> They're not, it's not a liberal/conservative thing. Jackie >> No, it is not someone way over here or someone way over here. I'm talking about people in your own circle. Theologians and scholars in your own circle disagree on the interpretation of those passages that seem to restrict women. So we have that, and we need to deal with that. That's first and foremost. But I've been a pastor for about 20 years and being a female pastor who happens to be gifted in preaching, I had to learn that it has to do with more than just what your stances on those particular passages. Kay >> So we don't want to scare off women from listening to us who might be more conservative than you and their perspective of those passages. Jackie >> Absolutely.

  7. 5. Mai

    Don’t Let the Culture Form You

    Elizabeth Woodson Kay Daigle As Christians in a world that doesn't follow Christ, it's essential not to let the culture around us form us. God desires his children to become more and more like Jesus. Too often, however, we fail to be aware of the voices around us that are forming us instead. Elizabeth Woodson shares from her latest book, calling us to resist the culture's formation rather than the Spirit's. Elizabeth not only helps us recognize common ways we are being formed by culture, she also provides the antidote. She suggests specific spiritual practices to implement. Don't miss this important conversation. Recommended resources Elizabeth's book Habits of Resistance: 7 Ways you are being Formed By Culture and Gospel Practices To Help You Push Back BOW series: Re-imagining Discipleship  Exploring Spiritual Practices podcast episode Elizabeth's website This episode is available on video if you prefer. Timestamps: 00:21 Introductions 01:23 What are you suggesting that we need to resist? 05:08 The better peace that Christ gives 14:21 The better identity Christ gives 20:03 The better justice Christ gives 24:46 Resources TranscriptKay >> Hi. I'm Kay Daigle of Beyond Ordinary Women Ministries. Welcome to our podcast today. I'm very excited to welcome Elizabeth Woodson, who has been with us before. Welcome, Elizabeth. We're so glad that you're here. Elizabeth >> Thanks for having me, Kay. It's great to be here. Kay >> Oh, you're welcome. Elizabeth is a Bible teacher, an author and a speaker. She has a degree from Dallas Seminary in Christian Education. And she has a new book out, and we're going to be talking about it today. The name of the book is Habits of Resistance. And the subtitle is Seven Ways You're Being Formed by Culture and Gospel Practices to Help You Push Back. So right there, hopefully the title will just pull people in, Elizabeth, because I think it's a great title and it helps us understand what's in the book. So it's Habits of Resistance. What are you suggesting that we need to resist? Elizabeth >> That is definitely an interesting title. We wanted to be able to draw people in with something that would make them ask that question. And so what we are wanting people to resist, or what I hope for people to resist, is being formed by the culture. And so it's the idea that our discipleship is not neutral, right? So being disciples isn't just being disciples of Jesus. We are disciples of whoever we follow. And unfortunately, I think we're in a space where maybe some of us have drifted from the path of Jesus more than we like to admit. And the fruit of our lives reflect that we're being formed by the culture. And so the encouragement through the book is to be aware of that, but also to practice these spiritual disciplines that help us resist that formation current that the culture is trying to keep us in. Kay >> Well, I certainly see the need for that. What did you see in us in the church that motivated you to write this particular book? Elizabeth >> Yeah. I saw things pop up in the place where a good portion of us like to hang out, which is social media, the gathering spaces that we have online. And so it's probably no surprise to the people who are listening that sometimes the comments sections on social media can be a bit of a dumpster fire even between Christians as we are disagreeing about things that we have difference of opinion. But in doing so, we dishonor one another as image bearers. And also is maybe just the subtle habits of what we're purchasing! And so I think there are aspects of overconsumption that we're just being pushed things and maybe our houses are full of too many things. Mine too, Kay, the Amazon boxes are showing up at my door, but the question is what is motivating us to push that buy button? And are we stewards of what God has given us? And so there's a couple other things I could list,

  8. 21. Apr.

    Healthy Churches for Women

    Laura Barringer Sadly, we've recognized over the past decade or so that healthy churches for women are not as prevalent as we'd like to believe. Too often such churches have abused, dismissed and devalued women who have much to give them. In this episode, Laura Barringer, co-author of The Church of Tov: Forming a Goodness Culture That Resists Abuses of Power and Promotes Healing, joins Dr. Kelley Mathews to discuss what healthy churches for women looks like and how to spot them. Recommended resources A Church Called Tov: Forming a Goodness Culture That Resists Abuses of Power and Promotes Healing by Scot McKnight and Laura Barringer. Recognizing Rape Culture podcast episode Caring for Women Who Struggle with Porn podcast episode Sexual Abuse in the Church podcast episode BOW's episodes on Caring Well and Church Issues This episode is available on video as well. Timestamps: 00:21 Introduction of Laura Barringer and A Church called TOV, the book she wrote with her father, Dr. Scot McNight. 02:03 Why did you partner with your father on this book? 05:39 What is tov? 08:32 How do we discern that a church is good, not toxic, for women in particular? 12:10 Elements of tov culture: compassion & empathy 18:14 What would you suggest churches do in order to value and see women? 20:21 How can a leader help her church culture avoid sexual abuse or trauma in the church? 27:02 It's much more than simply including women. 30:38 Other resources TranscriptKelley >> Welcome to Beyond Ordinary Women Ministries. I am Kelley Mathews and I am here today with Laura Barringer. She is the coauthor with her father, Scott McKnight, of several books. But today we're going to talk about tov, A Church Called Tov. I'm going to give it a little bit of publicity right here. So welcome, Laura. Thank you for taking your time with us today. Laura >> Thank you for having me. It's an honor to be with you. I'm grateful to be here and to meet you and hear a little bit more, too, about your ministry for women. Kelley >> Oh, yes. This is you'll hear more about it as we go along. But we do a lot of these interviews, really, and just provide resources for support. I would say primarily women leaders in the church. But obviously when they're online, anybody can access them. So we will hopefully add this resource for looking at churches and what they can do and why they can do—make take real, tangible steps towards being safe and healthy churches, particularly for women. And so both of your books, the other one is called Pivot, but where and that's a newer one, but we're going to stick with the older one. And it was very foundational, I think, to the conversation over the last, what, seven, eight years, maybe? I forgot exactly when it came out. Laura >> 2020. The fall of 2020. Kelley >> Only five. Oh, wow. OK. Laura >> Yeah. Kelley >> Yeah. Well, that's you know, Covid does a lot to make time disappear, I think. Laura >> It makes everything it makes everything fuzzy. Kelley >> Oh, goodness. Well, why did you partner with your father? I mean, we if anyone doesn't know Dr. McKnight is a New Testament scholar and writer and professor. And why did you guys partner up to write this book? Laura >> I wanted him to write the book. So that was the original plan. The book started as a personal story for us. In 2018, in March of 2018, a story broke up here. I live just outside of Chicago. The Chicago Tribune is the major newspaper here in the city. And it was a story about our former church, Willow Creek, our former pastor, Bill Hybels. It was a story about accusations, sexual accusations made against him by a number of women, most of whom somebody in our family knew. And it was a very disorienting, I speak of it now, but at the time it was very disorienting. It was disorienting because the church was saying the women were lying and the women were saying the church was lying.

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Everyone has influence, which is the basis of leadership. BOW’s bi-weekly episodes are purposed to prepare and empower Christian women for leadership and life. They feature our ministry team and women guests who share from their professional ministry experience. Whatever your calling – influencing your neighbors, coworkers, family, friends, leading small groups – this podcast is for you.

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