Conversing with Mark Labberton

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Conversing with Mark Labberton invites listeners into transformative encounters with leaders and creators shaping our world at the intersection of Christian faith, culture, and public life.

  1. Songs for Public Faith, with Jon Guerra

    2 DAYS AGO

    Songs for Public Faith, with Jon Guerra

    Singer-songwriter Jon Guerra joins Mark Labberton to explore devotional songwriting, public faith, and the tension between the kingdom of Jesus and American cultural power. Through music and reflection, Guerra considers how art can hold grief, courage, and hope together in turbulent times. "Love has a million disguises, but winning is simply not one." In this episode with Mark Labberton, Guerra reflects on songwriting as prayer, the call to love enemies, and artistic courage in moments of cultural crisis. Together they discuss devotional music, George Herbert's influence, the Beatitudes and American culture, citizenship and immigration imagery, increasing polarization, suffering and grace, and the vocation of Christian artists. Episode Highlights "Love has a million disguises, but winning is simply not one." "When Jesus says to love your enemies… he is giving us a means of survival." "This is not sentimentality… the only way to resist becoming what one hates." "My songwriting… would be a means of coming into contact with the invisible God." "Beauty puts us in contact with invisible things." About Jon Guerra Jon Guerra is a singer-songwriter based in Austin, Texas, known for devotional music that blends poetry, theology, and contemporary cultural reflection. His albums include Little Songs (2015), Keeper of Days (2020), Ordinary Ways (2023), and American Gospel. Guerra has also composed music for film, including Terrence Malick's A Hidden Life (2019). The son of immigrants from Cuba and Argentina, his work often explores themes of citizenship, prayer, justice, and the teachings of Jesus. His songwriting draws inspiration from figures like George Herbert and Howard Thurman, and seeks to connect spiritual devotion with public life. Helpful Links and Resources Jon Guerra website: https://www.jonguerramusic.com/ American Gospel album: https://jonguerra.bandcamp.com A Hidden Life film: https://www.searchlightpictures.com/ahiddenlife Jesus and the Disinherited by Howard Thurman: https://www.beacon.org/Jesus-and-the-Disinherited-P1781.aspx The Porter's Gate: https://www.portersgateworship.com/ Show Notes Devotional songwriting George Herbert influence on the pursuit of prayerful craft "Music for attending to the soul." Monday morning prayer music framing devotional practice Beauty and invisible realities in artistic experience American Gospel song introduction and cultural critique Beatitudes inversion in American culture "How do I give Christ a say in this conversation?" Love Your Enemies composition and album Jesus Howard Thurman's influence on enemy-love theology (Jesus and the Disinherited) Emotional formation through news, anger, and public life Death of ego and kingdom discipleship Kierkegaard and faith beyond ideology Worship as reordering power Kingdom of Jesus song and Pilate encounter Allegiance to a greater kingdom beyond nationalism Citizenship as foreignness imagery Immigrant family background shaping songwriting Citizens song written after 2017 inauguration "Come to you because I'm confused." Five-four musical structure expressing disorientation Groaning beauty and Romans 8 resonance Artists as "holy fools" naming reality Moltmann and theology near the cross Simone Weil: gravity and grace reflection "Love has a million disguises, but winning is simply not one." Hashtags #JonGuerra #DevotionalMusic #LoveYourEnemies #ChristianArt #AmericanGospel #PublicFaith #Jesus #Gospel #SpiritualFormation Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment Magazine and Fuller Seminary.

    55 min
  2. Keeping the Country Safe, with Elizabeth Neumann

    3 FEB

    Keeping the Country Safe, with Elizabeth Neumann

    When federal agents kill civilians and public outrage sweeps the nation, who gets to define justified force and who gets to hold power accountable? The killings of Renée Good and Alex Pretti have sparked protests, national shutdowns, and fresh debate about what security should look like in America. Elizabeth Neumann, former assistant secretary for counterterrorism at the US Department of Homeland Security, joins Mark Labberton for a wide-ranging conversation about fear-based governance, moral responsibility, constitutional guardrails, and what faithful leadership looks like in a moment of political crisis. "Cruelty is a deterrent." In this episode with Mark Labberton, Neumann reflects on how Christian faith and public service shaped her national security career and why recent forceful immigration enforcement and lethal encounters challenge constitutional limits and moral clarity. Together they discuss the moral and political meaning of the Minneapolis killings, trauma and vocation, immigration enforcement and democratic consent, fear-driven leadership, and how citizens and faith communities respond when institutions break down. Episode Highlights "Cruelty is a deterrent." "I realized how much my hope and trust had been in man." "We wrapped the flag around the cross." "We see sufficiently, but not transparently." "This is not normal, and this is not okay." About Elizabeth Neumann Elizabeth Neumann is a national security expert and former assistant secretary for counterterrorism at the US Department of Homeland Security. She served across three presidential administrations, including senior roles during the George W. Bush and Trump administrations, and worked extensively on counterterrorism, prevention of political violence, and domestic extremism. A frequent public commentator and congressional witness, Neumann has become a leading voice on the moral and constitutional dangers of fear-driven governance. Her work bridges public policy, trauma studies, and Christian ethics, particularly where political power collides with faith commitments. She is the author of Kingdom of Rage, a deeply personal and analytical account of extremism, nationalism, and the cost of unexamined allegiance. Helpful Links and Resources Kingdom of Rage: The Rise of Christian Extremism and the Path Back to Peace https://www.amazon.com/Kingdom-Rage-Christian-Extremism-Peace/dp/1546002057 Show Notes Elizabeth Neumann's experience growing up in North Texas Faith and party loyalty culturally fused "To be a Christian meant you were a Republican." Early fascination with politics and government service University of Texas, late 1990s political climate George W. Bush campaigns as formative training ground Entry into White House work through campaign victory Faith-based initiatives before September 11 reshaped national priorities September 11 as lived experience, not abstraction Crossing the 14th Street Bridge as the attacks unfolded "We were under attack," and nothing felt safe Fog, confusion, smoke, radios, and unanswered phone calls Trauma before resilience, fear before context Learning endurance from older colleagues who said, "We will get through this." Trauma as vocational fuel Hypervigilance, workaholism, and mission-driven identity National security as moral calling rather than career ambition Warning from a CIA colleague: rebuild a cadence of normal life Vigilance versus fear-driven overwork Marriage, family, and a season of spiritual deepening Scripture as disruption: Jeremiah 17 and misplaced trust "I realized how much my hope and trust had been in man." Public policy confidence challenged as spiritual idolatry Russell Moore sermon and the shock of naming Christian nationalism "We wrapped the flag around the cross." Cultural Christianity exposed as formation, not gospel Deconstructing politics without deconstructing faith Becoming comfortable with ambiguity and moral gray Labberton on seeing "through a glass darkly" Interpretive humility versus certainty culture Returning to government during the Trump administration Saying yes out of mission, not agreement Guardrails inside government: translating impulse into lawful action Illegal orders, pressure, and survival mode governance Lafayette Square as turning point Peaceful protesters met with militarized force Optics over constitution Immigration enforcement reframed as cruelty-based deterrence "Cruelty is a deterrent." ICE, CBP, and DHS operating outside traditional norms First, Second, and Fourth Amendment violations described Warrantless searches and administrative authority Law enforcement trained for war zones policing civilian streets Rapid ICE expansion without vetting or adequate training Fear rhetoric inside agencies creating enemy mentality Officers taught to expect violence from the public Predictable escalation and preventable deaths Moral injury to agents and terror inflicted on communities "This is not normal, and this is not okay." Democracy requires consent of the governed Public trust collapsing when law breaks the law Call for stand-down, retraining, and accountability Faithful resistance as moral clarity, not partisan alignment #ElizabethNeumann #FaithAndPolitics #NationalSecurity #ImmigrationCrisis #MoralCourage #PublicFaith Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment Magazine and Fuller Seminary.

    56 min
  3. Missional Church Planting, with Brad Brisco

    27 JAN

    Missional Church Planting, with Brad Brisco

    Church planting is thriving at the very moment the church faces a crisis of credibility. What if the problem isn't too few churches—but too narrow a vision of what church is for? In this episode with Mark Labberton, Brad Brisco reflects on church planting shaped by Christology before strategy, mission before institution, and incarnation before programs. Together they discuss missionary imagination in the modern West, co-vocational ministry, alternative expressions of church, micro-church networks, church growth assumptions, vocation and work, justice and proximity, and what it means to return—daily—to the ways of Jesus. –––––––––––––––– Episode Highlights "We need to help church planters think less like pastors starting a Sunday service and more like missionaries engaging a unique context." "If by church we mean buildings, then no—we don't need more of those." "Mission isn't really ours. It's about what God's already doing." "We can say we're gospel-centered and still miss the ways of Jesus." "The only way the church gets this far off is by being void of the ways of Jesus." –––––––––––––––– About Brad Brisco Brad Brisco is a missiologist and church planting leader, trainer, and writer who has spent more than twenty-five years coaching and resourcing church planters across North America. After beginning his career in the restaurant industry, Brisco entered ministry through church planting and later joined Send Network, where his work has focused on alternative expressions of church, co-vocational leadership, and missionally engaged discipleship. He also serves on the national leadership team for Forge America Mission Training Network. Brad is the co-author of "Missional Essentials," a 12-week small group study guide, "The Missional Quest: Becoming a Church of the Long Run" and "Next Door As It Is In Heaven." He is widely known for challenging church growth assumptions and for advocating Christ-centered, incarnational approaches that integrate faith, work, and neighborhood life. Brisco remains closely connected to decentralized microchurch networks and innovative models of mission in urban contexts. Follow him on X: https://x.com/bradleybrisco –––––––––––––––– Helpful Links and Resources Missional Church Network https://www.missionalchurchnetwork.com/ Send Network https://sendnetwork.com The Shaping of Things to Come – Alan Hirsch and Michael Frost https://www.amazon.com/Shaping-Things-Come-Innovation-Mission/dp/1565636597 Permanent Revolution – Alan Hirsch https://www.amazon.com/Permanent-Revolution-Apostolic-Imagination-Practice/dp/0470907746 Tampa Underground https://www.tampaunderground.com/ –––––––––––––––– Show Notes Church planting boom alongside institutional church crisis Restaurant business background shaping entrepreneurial ministry instincts Conversion, seminary, and inherited assumptions about "real" ministry Early confusion about church planting as a category From planting one church to training planters nationally Church defined beyond buildings toward embodied communities "If by church we mean buildings, then no—we don't need more of those." Missionary context of the modern West Do we need more churches or more ways of being church? Underserved neighborhoods and unengaged people groups Declining interest in traditional church programs Airplane anecdote exposing attractional church assumptions "You just need a really good sound system and a good speaker." Mission versus Sunday-centric church planting Christology–missiology–ecclesiology framework Jesus shaping mission before shaping church "Most church planters start with ecclesiology rather than the ways of Jesus." Church growth movement assumptions challenged Recapturing the missionary nature of the church Church as sent people, not religious service provider Incarnational presence in neighborhoods and workplaces "Mission isn't something we do over there." Participation in the mission of God "The mission isn't really ours—it's about what God's already doing." Individual salvation versus communal discipleship Robust Christology beyond the cross alone Incarnation, life, resurrection, and kingdom shaping mission Brokenness, proximity, and responsibility for place Mission as communal, not individual activity Bi-vocational and co-vocational ministry distinctions Marketplace calling as missional advantage Sacred–secular divide challenged Time constraints forcing alternative church models Team-based leadership as non-negotiable Theology of work as essential formation Financial freedom reshaping church planting incentives Fully funded models drifting toward attractional pressure Co-vocational longevity and sustainability Microchurch networks and decentralized leadership Tampa Underground as proof of concept Mission-first communities addressing justice and brokenness "Mission is the mother of adaptive ecclesiology." Diverse expressions emerging from contextual mission Established churches learning from church planting frameworks Incremental versus wholesale institutional change Sending churches supporting new expressions Calling the church back to the ways of Jesus "We can be gospel-centered and still miss the ways of Jesus." Credibility gap between Jesus and the church today Recalibrating discipleship for public faithfulness –––––––––––––––– #ChurchPlanting #MissionalChurch #FaithAndWork #Discipleship #ChristianLeadership #PublicFaith #Vocation –––––––––––––––– Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment Magazine and Fuller Seminary.

    58 min
  4. Moral Resistance, with Jonathan Wilson-Hartgrove

    20 JAN

    Moral Resistance, with Jonathan Wilson-Hartgrove

    Christian faith has been politicized. Arguably, this is not new. But what we see in America and other societies has a jarring impact for those who seek a credible public Christian faith. To examine how Christian faith has been politicized in recent years, preacher and public theologian Jonathan Wilson-Hartgrove joins Mark Labberton, asking what moral resistance requires in this authoritarian moment. "I couldn't know Jesus in the fullness of who Jesus is without integrating faith and justice." In this episode: Wilson-Hartgrove reflects on his Southern Baptist formation, his political awakening, and a conversion that reordered his understanding of Jesus, justice, and public life. And: Trying to understand Christian nationalism, authoritarian power, poverty and race, moral fusion movements, just war theology, the discipline of prayer, and how churches can reclaim biblical values for the common good. Episode Highlights "I couldn't know Jesus in the fullness of who Jesus is without integrating faith and justice." "The radical separation of faith from justice was a way my faith was stolen from me." "We are in an authoritarian crisis that tells its own version of reality." "Christian nationalism offers an alternative reality that very sincere people come to trust." "Prayer interrupts the liturgy of consumerism and gives us another story." About Jonathan Wilson-Hartgrove Jonathan Wilson-Hartgrove is an author, preacher, and public theologian working at the intersection of Christian faith, moral movements, and public life. He serves as Assistant Director of the Yale Center for Public Theology and Public Policy and has spent more than two decades in faith-rooted movements for social change. A longtime collaborator with Bishop William J. Barber II, he has helped articulate the Moral Movement's moral framing of poverty, race, and democracy. Wilson-Hartgrove is the author of multiple books on public faith, justice, and Christian discipleship, and a co-creator of the widely used prayer resource Common Prayer. He lives in North Carolina, where his work remains grounded in local churches and communities. Learn more and follow at jonathanwilsonhartgrove.com and @wilsonhartgrove Helpful Links and Resources Revolution of Values: Reclaiming Public Faith for the Common Good https://www.broadleafbooks.com/store/product/9781506484136/Revolution-of-Values Common Prayer (with Shane Claiborne) https://www.zondervan.com/p/common-prayer/ White Poverty (with William J. Barber II) https://www.uncpress.org/book/9781469661927/white-poverty/ Yale Center for Public Theology and Public Policy https://publictheology.yale.edu/ Show Notes – Growing up in rural North Carolina tobacco country; The Andy Griffith Show based on his former community – Southern Baptist formation, scripture memorization, and the King James Bible – Moral Majority era shaping faith and politics – Early ambition to serve Jesus through political power – Greyhound trip to Washington, DC with grandfather – Becoming a Senate page at sixteen – Working in the office of Strom Thurmond – Encountering the racial subtext of American politics – "There was a distance between Sunday school and what was practiced" – Learning how southern politics realigned after civil rights – Leaving partisan politics searching for faithful public life – Disorientation and not knowing another way to be Christian – Meeting a preacher shaped by the civil rights movement – Discovering a faith that named injustice without condemnation – "I needed another way to be Christian in public" – Colorblind theology and segregated church life – Conversion as seeing Jesus and reality differently – Faith reordered by relationships, not ideology – Christian opposition to the Iraq War – Traveling to Iraq during U.S. bombing – "According to just war theory, this wouldn't be a just war" – How common sense changes over time – Christian nationalism and manufactured moral narratives – Alternative realities formed by trusted information sources – "We are in an authoritarian crisis" – Mutual aid, churches, and local resistance – Poverty as a moral and political vulnerability – Prayer as resistance to consumerist liturgy – Common Prayer and the rhythm of scripture – "Prayer gives us another story to live inside" #JonathanWilsonHartgrove #Authoritarianism #PublicFaith #ChristianNationalism #MoralMovement #FaithAndJustice #CommonGood Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment Magazine and Fuller Seminary.

    45 min
  5. Venezuela, Power, and Idolatry, with Elizabeth Sendek and Julio Isaza

    13 JAN

    Venezuela, Power, and Idolatry, with Elizabeth Sendek and Julio Isaza

    As violence erupts around the world, how must we respond to those who worship power? In Venezuela, global power has reshaped lives overnight, and Elizabeth Sendek and Julio Isaza join Mark Labberton to reflect on faith, fear, and Christian witness amid political upheaval in Latin America. "It made me question, if power is the ultimate good, then questions of morality or theology have no place. We have chosen our idol." Together they discuss how experiences of dictatorship, displacement, and pastoral caution shape Christian responses to invasion and regime change; the relationship between power and idolatry; the moral realities that come with violent and nonviolent action; fear and pastoral responsibility; the global impact of diaspora and migration; how prayer informs action; and how the church bears faithful witness under ruthless power. –––––––––––––––––– Episode Highlights "It made me question, if power is the ultimate good, then questions of morality or theology have no place. We have chosen our idol." "Prayer is a spiritual resource, valuable, needed, urgent every day, in times of peace and in times of crisis." "Prayer must also go alongside personal and collective actions in the defense of life, justice, freedom, reconciliation, and peace." "They are very cautious, because they are not sure who is in control." "We should not normalize violence just because it has always existed in history." –––––––––––––––––– About Elizabeth Sendek Elizabeth Sendek is a theologian and educator specializing in Latin American Christianity, theology and power, and the church's public witness under political violence. Her work draws from lived experience across Latin America, particularly contexts shaped by dictatorship, corruption, displacement, and ecclesial resilience. She has taught theology in academic and pastoral settings, engaging questions of ethics, political theology, and Christian responsibility in fragile societies. Sendek is widely respected for her ability to connect historical memory, biblical theology, and contemporary crises, especially regarding migration, authoritarianism, and Christian hope. Her scholarship and public engagement consistently emphasize prayer joined with concrete action, resisting both naïveté and cynicism. She speaks regularly to churches, students, and leaders seeking faithful responses to power and suffering. About Julio Isaza Julio Isaza, born in Colombia, is married to Katie Isaza and is the father of Samuel and Benjamin. He served with the Covenant Church of Colombia from 1995 to 2006 and later earned a master of divinity degree in Chicago, where he lived for six years. Between 2012 and 2015, he worked in the formation of university students and young professionals with Serve Globally in Medellín, Colombia. From 2016 to 2025, he served in peace-building processes in conflict areas of Colombia and also as a professor at the Biblical Seminary of Colombia, teaching in the areas of missional theology, cultural context, and holistic impact strategies. During this time, he also worked with Indigenous communities in the Colombian rainforest, engaging in oral theology initiatives. His work has focused on holistic discipleship, theological education, and peace-building. He holds a master's degree in Conflict and Peace from the University of Medellín and is currently pursuing a PhD in Theology and Peace at the Oxford Centre for Mission Studies in England. A US citizen, he resides in Minnesota with his family, where he is writing his doctoral dissertation titled "Cultivating Integral (Biblical) Peace in a Context of Socio-environmental Violence." –––––––––––––––––– Helpful Links And Resources Princeton Theological Seminary https://www.ptsem.edu Psalm 73 (New International Version) https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm+73&version=NIV Brownsville Covenant Church (David Swanson) https://www.brownsvillecovenant.org Christians for Social Action https://christiansforsocialaction.org –––––––––––––––––– Show Notes News of Venezuelan invasion and presidential extrication Awakening to international headlines and Colombian news coverage Power displacing morality and theology "It made me question, if power is the ultimate good, then questions of morality or theology have no place." "We have chosen our idol." Violence beyond headlines and unseen civilian consequences Personal stories from Caracas neighbourhoods and bomb damage "You see in the news about Maduro taken, but you don't see the consequences of what happened." "Some of her family was killed in Caracas because of the bombs." Childhood shaped by armed conflict in rural Colombia Guerrilla groups, military raids, and forced displacement Paramilitary violence and state-backed terror in towns "When I was a child, I would draw helicopters and militaries killing each other." Conversion shaped by studying the life of Jesus "When I began to study the gospel, I thought that Jesus's way is not a violent way." Pastoral caution under volatile political regimes Fear shaping Christian speech and public silence "For the sake of my congregation, I cannot voice any opinion." Churches continuing ministry amid uncertainty "They agreed that this time is an opportunity to share the gospel of hope." Prayer as resistance and sustenance "Prayer is a spiritual resource, valuable, needed, urgent every day, in times of peace and in times of crisis." Prayer joined with embodied action "Prayer must also go alongside personal and collective actions in the defense of life, justice, freedom, reconciliation, and peace." Long histories of dictatorship shaping Latin American theology Skepticism toward purely academic liberation theology Credibility rooted in lived solidarity with the poor Diaspora pressure and forced return narratives "Now people say Venezuelans can go back to their own country." Xenophobia and fear within host communities Displacement as ongoing trauma for migrant families Scripture shaping hope amid cynicism "When I tried to understand all this, it troubled me deeply, till I entered the sanctuary of God." Refusing to normalize power's violence "Our call is not to normalize it, nor to declare it an act of God." –––––––––––––––––– #FaithAndPolitics #LatinAmerica #ChristianWitness #PowerAndViolence #Venezuela #ChurchAndState #PublicTheology Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

    48 min
  6. Retired from Ministry, Not from the Gospel, with Kenneth Ulmer

    6 JAN

    Retired from Ministry, Not from the Gospel, with Kenneth Ulmer

    What happens when a long pastoral calling ends, friendships fade, and the church faces cultural fracture? Bishop Kenneth C. Ulmer (42 years in ministry at Faithful Central Bible Church in Inglewood, CA) joins Mark Labberton for a searching conversation about retirement from pastoral ministry, loneliness, leadership, and the meaning of credible witness in the Black church today. "Ministry can be a lonely business." In this episode, Bishop Ulmer reflects on the stepping away after four decades of pastoral leadership, navigating aloneness, disrupted rhythms, and the spiritual costs of transition. Together they discuss pastoral loneliness, friendship and grief, retirement and identity, church leadership after elections, authenticity versus attraction, political division in congregations, and whether the church still centers Jesus. Episode Highlights "Ministry can be a lonely business." "[Boy, pointing to a church] Is God in there? [Pastor] Sometimes I wonder." "There's a Moses in you that will see farther than you'll go." "The tension is authenticity versus attraction." "Jesus is the answer for the world today." About Kenneth C. Ulmer Bishop Kenneth C. Ulmer is Bishop Emeritus of Faithful Central Bible Church in Inglewood, California, where he served as senior pastor for more than four decades. A nationally respected preacher, civic leader, and mentor, Ulmer played a significant role in the spiritual and economic life of Los Angeles, including the preservation of the Forum as a major community asset. He has been a prominent voice in conversations about the Black church, urban ministry, and faithful Christian leadership amid cultural and political change. Ulmer continues to teach, preach, and advise leaders while reflecting publicly on vocation, aging, and wisdom in ministry. Learn more and follow at https://www.faithfulcentral.com Helpful Links And Resources Faithful Central Bible Church: https://www.faithfulcentral.com Conversing with Mark Labberton: https://comment.org/conversing Credible Witness podcast: https://faith.yale.edu/credible-witness Show Notes Long pastoral tenure ending after more than four decades of leadership Friendship formed through shared grief and the loss of trusted companions Prayer, friendship, and ministry forged "on our knees" at Hollywood Presbyterian Loss of regular companionship revealing unexpected loneliness and aloneness "Ministry can be a lonely business." Absence of trusted friends exposing a deep relational void Final sermon titled "I Did My Best," echoing 2 Timothy imagery and the words on Kenneth Ulmer's father's grave "I fought a good fight" as closing vocational reflection Disrupted spiritual rhythm after forty-one years of weekly preaching "My rhythm is off." Identity shaped by Sunday coming "every seven days" Question of where and how to worship after stepping away Public recognition colliding with uncertainty about purpose Therapy as a faithful response to grief and transition Energy and health without a clear channel for vocation Question of "what do you do now?" after leadership ends Seeing farther than you will go as a leadership reality Deuteronomy 34 and Moses viewing the Promised Land "There's a Moses in you that will see farther than you'll go." Passing vision to a Joshua who will go farther than he can see Grief of cheering from the sidelines while no longer on the field Wrestling with authenticity versus attraction in church leadership John 12:32 and the tension of lifting up Jesus to draw others "The tension is authenticity versus attraction." Fear of entertainment, production, and celebrity eclipsing Christ Question of whether churches are built on preaching or personality Political polarization dividing congregations and pulpits Question pastors must ask: "Who am I going to be after this ballot?" Kingdom identity beyond donkey or elephant, only the Lamb "Holding up the bloodstained banner" as faithful witness Doors of the church open—how wide are they, and for whom? Concern for credibility after the benediction and after the election Civic engagement without surrendering theological center Preserving community good beyond church walls and buildings Forum purchase as economic stewardship, not church expansion Question of whether God is still "in that house" How much of the God inside gets outside into the neighborhood? Jesus as the enduring answer amid cultural confusion Worship song, "We Offer Jesus" "Jesus in the morning, Jesus at noonday, Jesus in the midnight hour." Call to be the extended incarnation in ordinary life: "You are the temple." "Who are you turning away that he [Jesus] would not turn away?" #KennethCUlmer #PastoralLeadership #ChurchAndCulture #CredibleWitness #FaithAfterRetirement #AuthenticityVsAttraction Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment Magazine and Fuller Seminary.

    56 min
  7. How to Reframe an Angry Year, with Michael Wear

    30/12/2025

    How to Reframe an Angry Year, with Michael Wear

    Can joy be anything but denial in a rage-filled public life? Michael Wear joins Mark Labberton to reframe politics through the kingdom logic of hope, agency, and practices of silence and solitude. As 2025 closes amid political discord, we might all ask whether joy can be real in public life—without denial, escapism, or contempt. "… Joy is a pervasive and constant sense of wellbeing." In this conversation, Michael Wear and Mark Labberton reflect on joy, hope, responsibility, and agency amid a reaction-driven politics. Together they discuss the realism of Advent; the limits of our control; how kingdom imagination reframes anger; hope beyond outcomes, dignity under threat, and practices (including silence and solitude) that restore clarity. Episode Highlights "Joy is a pervasive and constant sense of wellbeing. … Joy is not a technique to then get people to do what you want them to do." "God's Kingdom is the range of his effective will." " Someone whose hope is rightly placed sees that a dignity denying culture does not have the final say." "Our will is effective and those things in which our will is not effective." "The pattern of domination and violence is an old one." About Michael Wear Michael Wear is the Founder, President, and CEO of the Center for Christianity and Public Life, a nonpartisan nonprofit that contends for the credibility of Christian resources in public life, for the public good. He has served for more than a decade as a trusted advisor to civic and religious leaders on faith and public life, including as a presidential campaign and White House staffer. He is the author of The Spirit of Our Politics: Spiritual Formation and the Renovation of Public Life and Reclaiming Hope: Lessons Learned in the Obama White House About the Future of Faith in America. Learn more and follow at https://www.michaelwear.com. Helpful Links and Resources Michael Wear, The Spirit of Our Politics https://www.zondervan.com/9780310367239/the-spirit-of-our-politics/ Michael Wear, Reclaiming Hope https://www.thomasnelson.com/9780718082338/reclaiming-hope/ Center for Christianity and Public Life https://www.ccpubliclife.org/ A National Call to Silence and Solitude https://www.silenceandsolitude.org/ Dallas Willard: "Personal Soul Care" https://dwillard.org/resources/articles/personal-soul-care Howard Thurman, Jesus and the Disinherited https://www.beacon.org/Jesus-and-the-Disinherited-P1781.aspx Show Notes End of 2025, cusp of Christmas; fraught public moment; joy as the lynchpin for faithful presence in politics and public life Joy held with pain, suffering, complexity Refusing denial while trusting a God who relentlessly pursues the world in love and hope Joy intertwined with hope, responsibility, agency Where does responsibility end and faithful agency begin? "Willard would say joy is a pervasive and constant sense of wellbeing." " It is very difficult to have joy if you are taking responsibility for things that are not your responsibility." Public life as joyless space; lacking imagination for joy amid provocation, antagonism, and constant political showmanship "If there are places in our life where we can't conceive of joy, it's a problem with our view of God." Misplaced responsibility, misplaced hope; joy collapses when taking on burdens that aren't ours and treating agency as ultimate "God's kingdom is the range of his effective will." "We each have our own little kingdoms … where what we say to be done is done." Politics reveals limits; a clarity about what we can do, what we can't do, and what we must import into the rest of life "Our will is effective, and there are things in which our will is not effective." "Faithfulness is not the ability to determine a righteous outcome … to everything in which our lives touch." False responsibility, obscured agency Are we taking charge of what isn't ours while ignoring the real choices we do have? "That's a recipe for joylessness." Poked and prodded by provocations; entertainment, antagonisms, and helplessness normalize reaction and justify complicity Anger as political fuel Many assume that raising your voice is the only faithful posture inside the public arena. "I've had people respond to me: 'How am I going to get anything done in politics without anger?'" "Political imagination has been taken over by a political logic as opposed to a kingdom logic." Relearning responsibility and agency; hope not grounded in our effectiveness, but in what God is doing beyond our reach. "Ultimate hope lies outside of the range of our effective will." "It is in that realm in which we are perfectly safe." Hope is for a life that pervades all things. "So when your hope is in the right place, you can hope for a whole range of things." " Someone whose hope is rightly placed sees that a dignity denying culture does not have the final say." Hope and joy "when your back is against the wall" Allen Temple Baptist Church: Joy at the margins of culture Fannie Lou Hamer Howard Thurman, Jesus and the Disinherited First Presbyterian Church in Evanston, IL Michael Wear, The Spirit of Our Politics Psalm 23 as distress-psalm: Enemies are still present, yet God leads beside still waters and cares most in greatest distress. "Take off the old self with its practices and put on the new self." "Put on Christ now in a way that will affect everything around us." Herod: The paranoid leader Advent into Christmastide—what it means to dwelling in Emmanuel "This is why the incarnation is such an extraordinarily important cornerstone: It's that God enters in through Jesus into our world, in a world in which, yes, there may be great praises in heaven and on earth from those who understand something at least of who he is and what he's there to do. But it also lands him in a world of immediate physical and familial vulnerability of political and social, if not military, violence." Are we protected from vulnerability, or living in precarity? The pattern of domination and violence Refusing forgetfulness as 2026 approaches with fresh pressures and fresh calling. National call to silence and solitude; disinvesting from reactionary instincts to engage the world with renewed vision and clarity. silenceandsolitude.org "Silence and solitude… can infuse your public activity with right vision and right clarity." #MichaelWear #MarkLabberton #ChristianPublicLife #ChristianPolitics #SpiritualFormation #Joy #Advent #SilenceAndSolitude #Hope #PublicWitness Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment Magazine and Fuller Seminary.

    44 min
  8. Mary / Christmas, with Matthew Milliner

    23/12/2025

    Mary / Christmas, with Matthew Milliner

    What if taking Mary seriously actually deepens, rather than distracts from, devotion to Jesus? Art historian and theologian Matthew Milliner joins Mark Labberton to explore that possibility through history, theology, and the Incarnation. In a searching conversation about Mary, the meaning of Marian devotion, and the mystery of the Incarnation, they draw from early Christianity, Protestant theology, and global Christianity, as Milliner reframes Mary as a figure who deepens devotion to Christ rather than distracting from it. "I don't see how anyone cannot understand this to be the revolution of revolutions in regards to the way that women are understood." In this episode, they reflect on Mary as presence, witness, and theological key to understanding God's entry into human life. They discuss Marian devotion before the Reformation, excess and restraint in Christian practice, the Incarnation's implications for embodiment and gender, Protestant fears and recoveries, global Marian traditions, grief and discipleship, and why Mary ultimately points beyond herself to Christ. Episode Highlights "I love Jesus so much that I love his mom too. Isn't she great too?" " What relationship do you have in your life where if you knew the parents of the person you're in relationship with, that would damage the relationship? … It's a sign of deep intimacy." "There is no Christianity without Mary. That's how God came into the world." "She is my tutorial in grief." "If it's the real Mary you're dealing with, she will point you to Jesus." "The answer to the abuse is to point to the best use." "She became a presence in the church for me." "I don't see how anyone cannot understand this to be the revolution of revolutions." About Matthew Milliner Matthew J. Milliner is Associate Professor of Art History at Wheaton College, where he specializes in early Christian, Byzantine, and global Christian art. His scholarship explores theology through visual culture, with particular attention to Mary, the Incarnation, and Christian devotion across traditions. Milliner is widely published in academic journals and popular outlets, including Comment Magazine, where he has written extensively on Marian theology and Christian art. He is a frequent speaker and lecturer on Christianity and aesthetics, and his work bridges evangelical theology, Anglican practice, and historic Christian tradition. Milliner is also known for his teaching on icons, pilgrimage, and the relationship between art, doctrine, and discipleship. Helpful Links and Resources Read Matthew Milliner's column, Material Mysticism, for Comment Magazine https://comment.org/columns/material-mysticism/ Matthew Milliner, Mother of the Lamb: The Story of a Global Icon: https://www.amazon.com/Mother-Lamb-Story-Global-Icon/dp/1506478751 Matthew Milliner faculty page: https://www.wheaton.edu/academics/faculty/matthew-milliner/ Stephen Shoemaker, Mary in Early Christian Faith and Devotion: https://yalebooks.yale.edu/book/9780300217216/mary-in-early-christian-faith-and-devotion/ Rosemary Radford Ruether, Goddesses and the Divine Feminine: https://www.ucpress.edu/books/goddesses-and-the-divine-feminine/paper William Johnston, The Wounded Stag: https://www.harvard.com/book/9780823218394 The Angelus Prayer (recited in this conversation): https://www.usccb.org/prayers/angelus Shrine of Our Lady of Walsingham: https://www.walsinghamanglican.org.uk Show Notes Opening prayer invoking Mary's witness, comfort, and example as a way of drawing listeners toward Christ rather than away from him Evangelical identity reclaimed as gospel proclamation rather than political alignment or cultural branding Early Marian devotion emerging "early and often" in Christian history, grounded in Jerusalem rather than later medieval invention "I love Jesus so much that I love his mom too. Isn't she great too?" Honoring Mary without worship, framed through Revelation imagery of the bride and the people of God Archaeological and manuscript discoveries reshaping assumptions about early Christian practice Marian devotion expanding intimacy rather than competing with Christological focus Newman on devotion requiring excess, extravagance, and emotional overflow to be genuinely human "Let the Christian Church let it boil over every once in a while." Reformation dynamics producing extremes: feverish excess on one side and stone-cold rejection on the other Rosemary Radford Ruether, Goddesses and the Divine Feminine Pagan goddess traditions contrasted with Marian imagery and their treatment of women's bodies Aphrodite imagery as endorsement of male desire versus Marian imagery as reverence for God's entry into flesh "Find me an image of Mary that does anything close to that." Incarnation reshaping how Christians see the female body, sexuality, and dignity "This is the body God entered the world through." The angel Gabriel's Annunciation and Mary's consent Annunciation framed as consent rather than coercion, with Luke emphasizing Mary's agency "Nothing happens to her until she consents." Mary as theological answer to pornographic and exploitative religious imaginations "I don't see how anyone cannot understand this to be the revolution of revolutions." Guadalupe as evangelistic bridge for indigenous peoples pointing toward Christ without blood sacrifice Mary's global accessibility across Muslim, Hindu, and non-Christian contexts "She is a real evangelist, Mary." Walsingham pilgrimage as Anglican recovery of Marian devotion Marian attraction functioning as penumbra drawing outsiders toward Christianity "If it's the real Mary you're dealing with, she will point you to Jesus." Abuse of Marian devotion acknowledged alongside historical self-correction within Catholicism "The answer to the abuse is to point to the best use." Matthew Milliner's personal spiritual journey from childhood Catholicism through evangelical conversion Anti-Mary phase followed by rediscovery through art history and theology "She became a presence in the church for me." Mary understood as presence rather than abstract idea, without becoming divine William Johnson's, The Wounded Stag: God is beyond gender Devotional practice as tributary flowing into Trinitarian worship rather than replacing it "There is no Christianity without Mary. That's how God came into the world." Angelus prayer as scriptural meditation culminating in Trinitarian praise "Pour your grace into our hearts, O Lord." Psychological and spiritual healing through Marian presence without theological confusion Mary as guide for grief through images of sorrow and seven swords "She is my tutorial in grief." Black Madonna traditions interpreted through devotion, time, soot, and divine darkness Darkness as sign of overwhelming divine light rather than absence of God #ConversingPodcast #MatthewMilliner #MaryTheology #Incarnation #ChristianTradition #AdventReflections #FaithAndArt Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment Magazine and Fuller Seminary.

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Conversing with Mark Labberton invites listeners into transformative encounters with leaders and creators shaping our world at the intersection of Christian faith, culture, and public life.

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