Dark Night Podcast

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Join tap dance artist Andrew Nemr and pastor Mike Freeman as they explore Dark Night of the Soul by St. John of the Cross. This common human experience strips away what we use to orient ourselves in the world, often leaving us feeling lost and confused-but also inviting us to endure. These conversations were part of Andrew's preparation for a 12-hour improvised tap dance performance. The podcast is part of the Dark Night Project presented by Nemr Institute and KalosWorks.org, made possible by generous partners and supporters.

Episodes

  1. 07/11/2025

    After the Night: An Ending of Sorts…| Ep. 12

    In this final episode, Andrew and Mike conclude their journey with an “unfinished ending.” Drawing on excerpts from the Old Testament’s Song of Songs , they explore how  desire, delay, and detachment, are shaped by the stripping of the mantle, mortification, and the refusal to settle for comfort on our terms.  Andrew’s insights from the 12-hour Dark Night Live performance and  Mike’s description of a potter’s work   offer further metaphor. Together they explore how bearing witness, persevering without instant answers, and having  a steady yes forms us toward the summit: union with divine love. Book II chapters 22-25 00:00 Introduction to The Dark Night Podcast 01:20 The Nature of Endings and Continuations 04:37 Reflections on Transformation and Possibility 10:39 Exploring the Song of Songs 20:23 The Role of Suffering and Companionship 30:53 Unresolved Storylines in Chapter Five 33:07 The Potter's Metaphor 38:02 Spiritual Formation and Dark Night of the Soul 41:28 The Role of Love in Spiritual Journeys 49:24 Endurance and Support in Dark Times 51:41 Medical Journeys and Life's Dance 57:39 Conclusion and Reflections  Related Links Dark Night Project: www.darknightlive.com Nemr Institute: www.nemrinstitute.com

    1h 4m

  2. 24/10/2025

    Climbing the Mystic Ladder: St. John of the Cross’ 10 Steps | Ep. 11

    In this episode, Andrew and Mike continue through The Dark Night of the Soul (Book Two, Chapters 19–20). They reflect on St. John’s 10-step “mystic ladder” of divine love—from turn to burn—blending scripture, lived experience, and Andrew’s upcoming 12-hour overnight performance, Dark Night. Together they explore perseverance, the quiet work of desire, and how growth unfolds through trust, consistency, and showing up.  Book II chapters 19-20  00:48 Discussing the Mystic Ladder of Divine Love 01:22 Exploring the First Steps: Languish and Swoon 04:35 Seeking and the Journey Up the Ladder 18:53 The Role of Teachers and Guides 24:49 The Struggle and Joy of Progression 36:00 The Importance of Process Over Performance 38:57 The Power of Repetition 40:29 The Mystic Ladder: A Metaphor for Human Endeavor 42:35 Steps of the Mystic Ladder 49:16 The Final Steps: Hold and Burn 51:18 The Journey of Transformation 01:09:52 The Good Place and the Mystic Ladder 01:15:30 Final Thoughts Related Links Dark Night Project: www.darknightlive.com Nemr Institute: www.nemrinstitute.com

    1h 18m

  3. 17/10/2025

    Descent Before Ascent: How Do We Trust the Hidden Guide? | Ep. 10

    In this episode, Andrew and Mike continue through The Dark Night of the Soul (Book Two, Chapters 16–18). They reflect on John’s “secret, secure ladder” and what it means to be led where sight can’t go, when memory fades, senses are stilled, and understanding grows quiet. Through scripture and lived experience, they explore unknowing as a path of love, learning to trust God’s hidden guidance more than effort, explanation, or control.   Book II chapters 16-18  00:00 Introduction to The Dark Night Podcast 02:14 The Essence of Spiritual Progress 07:17 Exploring the Poem: Dark Night of the Soul 16:56 The Concept of Beginner's Mind 22:31 The Universal Path of Emptiness and Fulfillment 33:48 The Descent and Dark Night of the Soul 41:14 Theological Constructs and Free Floating Journeys 58:36 The Role of Love and Community in the Dark Night 01:03:34 Final Thoughts  Related Links Dark Night Project: www.darknightlive.com Nemr Institute: www.nemrinstitute.com

    1h 5m

  4. 10/10/2025

    The Pace of Love: How Do We Learn to Move Slowly Again? | Ep. 9

    In this episode, Andrew and Mike continue their journey through The Dark Night of the Soul, exploring Book Two, Chapters 12-15. They reflect on the image of the Divine who moves slowly, at the pace of love not efficiency, and what it means to walk with such a God through stillness, silence, and surrender. Drawing from scripture, lived experience, and the rhythm of everyday life, they unpack the difference between spiritual striving and divine timing.  Book II chapters 12-15  00:00 Introduction to The Dark Night Podcast 03:58 Personal Experiences and Vocational Ministry Challenges 21:46 Reflections on the Dark Night Live Performance 38:50 Facing Retirement and Vocational Calling 42:24 The Role of Presence in Vocational Ministry 48:43 The Three Mile an Hour God 58:40 Paul's Struggle to Articulate Spiritual Realities 01:06:57 The Pain and Glory of Ministry 01:12:08 Final Thoughts Related Links Dark Night Project: www.darknightlive.com Nemr Institute: www.nemrinstitute.com

    1h 13m

  5. 03/10/2025

    Between Sense and Spirit: How Do We Cross Without Clinging? | Ep. 8

    In this episode, Andrew and Mike press deeper into the dark night. Drawing on “hyperlinks” in the Bible between the book of Lamentations, the letter to the Corinthians, and the wilderness of Jesus’ temptation, they explore what it means to be a log thrown into the fire consumed so that love might be refined. Their conversation wrestles with surrender, endurance, and the paradox of active passivity: being carried more than striving, walking without sight, and trusting that in the process God is at work.  Book II chapters 8-11 00:00 Introduction to The Dark Night Podcast 02:02 Scriptural Engagement and Reflections 12:03 Metaphors and Spiritual Insights 23:10 The Role of Passivity in Spiritual Growth 27:37 Engaging with Spiritual Formation 34:47 The Parables and Indirectness of God 39:02 Jesus' Journey and Temptation 46:26 Personal Reflections and Burnout 55:02 The State of the World and Final Thoughts  Related Links Dark Night Project: www.darknightlive.com Nemr Institute: www.nemrinstitute.com

    1h 1m

  6. 26/09/2025

    The Fog of Unknowing: How Do We Walk Without Sight? | Ep. 7

    In this episode, Andrew and Mike dive into Book Two, Chapters 4–7 of The Dark Night of the Soul by St. John of the Cross. They explore themes of purgation, detachment, and the “poverty of spirit” that marks the threshold of transformation. Alongside scripture and lived stories, they wrestle with the experience of emptiness, aridity, and the dark fog that seems to blind the faculties of memory and desire. The conversation touches the stories of Jonah, Job, Jeremiah, and even jazz improvisation, drawing out a conception of God who does not always lift us out of the fire but instead meets us within it.       Book II chapters 4-7 00:00 Introduction to The Dark Night Podcast 01:12 Resonating Points in Chapter Four 02:43 The Beatitudes and Purgation 04:53 Transformative Memory and Eternal Apprehensions 32:36 The Art of Recovery in Dance and Life 37:58 Exploring the Three Kinds of Good 43:14 Fog and Divine Presence 01:02:27 The Great Undoing 01:08:48 Final Reflections and Future Directions Related Links Dark Night Project: www.darknightlive.com Nemr Institute: www.nemrinstitute.com

    1h 14m

  7. 19/09/2025

    Fortitude at the Gate: How Do We Stand Fast? | Ep. 6

    In this episode, Andrew and Mike dive into St. John of the Cross’s teaching on the “dark night”— how dryness and emptiness can be the way of deepening love and union with the divine. Through personal stories and pastoral insight, they unpack the difference between active efforts and passive purifications, how to endure when praying feels numb, and practical ways to stay the course —examen, simple obedience, and quiet service—even in the darkness. Book II chapters 1-3 00:00 Introduction to The Dark Night Podcast02:43 Personal Reflections and Challenges03:13 The Concept of Fortitude11:01 The Spiritual Journey of Hafiz20:35 Reconciling Hardship and Divine Love32:30 Exploring the Appeal of Mysticism38:09 The Journey from Communication to Communion43:43 Endurance and the Dark Night of the Soul48:05 The Role of Pain and Suffering in Spiritual Growth55:07 The Importance of Endurance and Recognition01:04:44 Concluding Thoughts and ReflectionsRelated LinksDark Night Project: www.darknightlive.comNemr Institute: www.nemrinstitute.com

    1h 6m

  8. 12/09/2025

    The Threshold of the Spirit: How Do We Step Across? | Ep. 5

    In this episode, Andrew and Mike explore Jonah’s descent as a living metaphor for the Dark Night of the Soul. Drawing from scripture, Hebrew insights, and personal stories, they unpack themes of purgation, endurance, stripping away, and the tension between punishment and transformation. The conversation wrestles with what it means to be swallowed by darkness, where God is in those moments, and how surrender and the choice to endure open the way forward.   Reading: Book I chapters 12-14  00:00 Introduction to The Dark Night Podcast 03:05 Exploring St. John of the Cross 07:44 Jonah and the Dark Night 09:51 The Descent of Jonah 12:19 Jonah's Prayer and Reflection 27:03 The Pregnant Fish and Spiritual Formation 32:16 The Significance of the Jonah Story 38:26 The Role of Spiritual Practices 47:31 The Dichotomy of Achievement and Spiritual Formation 01:01:42 Conclusion and Reflections Related Links Dark Night Project: www.darknightlive.com Nemr Institute: www.nemrinstitute.com

    1h 2m

  9. 22/08/2025

    The Path of Love and Endurance: What's the Experience? | Ep. 4

    In this episode, Andrew Nemr and Pastor Mike Freeman dive into Chapter 11 of The Dark Night of the Soul by St. John of the Cross. They discuss the transformative process of enduring spiritual darkness and emptiness as a pathway to deepening love and union with God. Andrew shares his experiences with preparing for his 12-hour overnight performance, while Mike highlights the passive nature of spiritual growth and the significance of enduring through life's challenges. Reading: Book I Chapters 10–11 00:00 Introduction to The Dark Night Podcast 00:34 Exploring the Theme of Love in St. John's Work 03:17 Discussing Chapter 11 of The Dark Night of the Soul 09:52 The Beatitudes and Their Spiritual Significance 15:03 The Process of Spiritual Growth and Humility 21:23 Active vs. Passive Spiritual Practices 33:33 The Crushing Process 34:20 The Passive Phase 35:21 Jesus' Silent Observation 36:08 The Love of the Father 36:45 Feeling Forsaken 39:26 The Dark Night of the Soul 43:25 The Metaphor of the Tree 50:34 Paul's Contentment 55:33 The Secret of Being Content 01:02:04 Final Thoughts and Reflections Related Links Dark Night Project: www.darknightlive.com Nemr Institute: www.nemrinstitute.com

    1h 6m

  10. 15/08/2025

    Through the Gloom: How Do We Find Light? | Ep. 3

    In this episode, Andrew Nemr and Mike Freeman continue their journey with Chapters 8–9 of The Dark Night of the Soul by St. John of the Cross, delving into St. John of the Cross's concept of the Dark Night of the Soul and discussing Andrew's spiritual preparation for the presentation of Dark Night Live. They share personal reflections on sense deprivation, spiritual emptiness, and the importance of falling into aridity as it relates to the dark night of the soul. Reading: Book I Chapters 8–9  00:00 Introduction to The Dark Night Podcast 00:33 Andrew's Retreat Experience 01:29 Understanding the Dark Night of the Soul 07:05 The Story of the Traveler and the Dragon 12:56 The Concept of 'I' in Spirituality 29:21 The Paradox of the Gospel 39:46 Avoiding Deep Intimacy 41:52 The Night of Sense 43:50 The Love of God 46:16 Relational Aspects of Faith 49:40 The Dark Night of the Soul 54:28 Spiritual Practices and Prayer 01:03:31 Community and Support 01:08:14 Reflecting on St. John of the Cross Related Links Dark Night Project: www.darknightlive.com Nemr Institute: www.nemrinstitute.com

    1h 14m

  11. 01/08/2025

    Exploring the Dark Night: What is it? | Ep. 2

    In this episode, Andrew Nemr and Mike Freeman continue their journey with Chapters 4–7 of The Dark Night of the Soul by St. John of the Cross, exploring the hidden spiritual obstacles that are effectively stripped away in the Night – like spiritual pride and gluttony. Reading: Book I Chapters 4–7  00:00 Introduction to The Dark Night Podcast 01:53 Greek Influences and Biblical References 04:09 Sins of the Flesh vs. Sins of the Spirit 05:21 Historical Anecdotes and Spiritual Lessons 20:13 The Challenge of Reading the Bible 26:12 Brother Lawrence and Practicing the Presence 32:27 The Dark Night of the Soul: A Universal Experience 48:13 The Hidden Nature of Spiritual Growth 52:44 Full Solar vs. Lunar Spirituality

    57 min

  12. 24/07/2025

    When the Darkness Comes: What Do You Do? | Ep.1

    In this episode of The Dark Night Podcast, tap dance artist Andrew Nemr and Pastor Mike Freeman delve into St. John of the Cross's 'Dark Night of the Soul.' They discuss the spiritual disorientation that occurs when the usual sources of comfort and orientation are stripped away, and how this experience, often misinterpreted as a negative one, can be a profound part of spiritual growth. Reading: Introduction, Prologue, and Book I Chapters 1-3  00:00 Introduction to The Dark Night Podcast 01:42 Experiencing Disorientation and Isolation 07:44 Reflections on St. John of the Cross's Poem 11:46 Navigating Through Spiritual Darkness 23:07 The Journey from Spiritual Milk to Maturity 36:28 Exploring Psalm 22: A Deep Dive 38:05 Community and Isolation in Faith 39:35 The Passion of Christ: Reflections and Memories 41:31 Navigating Personal Darkness 49:25 The Role of Darkness in Spiritual Growth 01:09:26 Concluding Thoughts and Reflections

    1h 12m
  • 12 Episodes

About

Join tap dance artist Andrew Nemr and pastor Mike Freeman as they explore Dark Night of the Soul by St. John of the Cross. This common human experience strips away what we use to orient ourselves in the world, often leaving us feeling lost and confused-but also inviting us to endure. These conversations were part of Andrew's preparation for a 12-hour improvised tap dance performance. The podcast is part of the Dark Night Project presented by Nemr Institute and KalosWorks.org, made possible by generous partners and supporters.

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