New Kinship

David Frank and TJ Espinoza
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Welcome to New Kinship, where we are exploring and renewing ideas of belonging, desire, and being a neighbor in the Kingdom of Jesus. Together we are pursuing the communion and shalom of the church and the world. Pull up a chair and join the conversation! newkinship.substack.com

  1. BONUS #14 - Update on Revoice with Nate Collins

    2 DAYS AGO

    BONUS #14 - Update on Revoice with Nate Collins

    Have you heard of Revoice? If not, then maybe that’s because you’ve been living in the woods… or in the closet. Come tune in and hear an update on what’s going on at the Revoice Conference and beyond from Revoice's founder and President, Nate Collins. TJ, Tyler, and David get to hear from Nate about the changes in the ministry over the years, including the change in the scope of the ministry as it relates to gender minorities. Towards the end they each share about what’s special about Revoice Conference and why they keep coming back. https://www.revoice.org/ Get full access to New Kinship at newkinship.substack.com/subscribe

    32 min

  2. 6 MAY

    #81 - Hope for All Our Intimate Relationships, with Erin Moniz

    The whole gang talked with Erin Moniz—Baylor University chaplain, Anglican deacon, and author of the excellent book Knowing and Being Known—about developing a Christian theology of intimacy. Erin’s approach to intimacy offers as a valuable critique for our culture’s obsession with romance and sex. Even more importantly, she offers a positive theological vision, exploring how friendships, family, and community relationships can become primary places where we are known, loved, and formed in Christ—with specific thoughts for queer/same-sex-attracted Side B Christians. We hope you’ll give this episode, and Erin’s book, a listen! About Our Guest Rev. Erin F. Moniz (DMin, Trinity School for Ministry) is a deacon in the Anglican Church in North America and Associate Chaplain and Director for Chapel at Baylor University, where she disciples emerging adults and journeys with them toward healthy, gospel-centered relationships. You can find her at erinfmoniz.com. — Note: This episode uses the terms “Side A” and “Side B” as shorthand for specific Christian perspectives on gay/queer sexuality. If you’re new to the conversation, you might find it helpful to check out episode #3, where we talk through the four “sides”: ⁠#3 - A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality⁠ — ★ Timestamps (00:00) #81 - Hope for All Our Intimate Relationships, with Erin Moniz (03:11) Erin’s background, serving emerging adults, Side B connections (07:32) “We lack a robust theology of intimacy” (15:03) “I can live without sex, but I cannot live without intimacy” (18:53) Romance idolatry leads to hypersexualization (22:57) What’s the difference: “Romance” vs. “Intimacy”? (28:22) When values conflict: autonomy vs. vulnerability (33:29) How AI bots could shape our intimacy (37:12) Can intimate relationships be “economic” also? (47:03) Are queer Christians better at healthy relationships? (52:36) Your advice to: “I’m falling in love with my friends” (01:01:15) Encouragement: You were made for intimacy on purpose by God — ★ Links and References Knowing and Being Known: Hope for All Our Intimate Relationships (IVP ): www.ivpress.com/knowing-and-being-known — ★ Send us feedback, questions, comments, and support || Email: communionandshalom@gmail.com | Instagram: @newkinship | Substack: @newkinship — ★ Credits || Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza, Tyler Parker | Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson, carlswensonmusic.com | Podcast Manager: Elena F. ★ Get full access to New Kinship at newkinship.substack.com/subscribe

    1hr 5min
  3. Kinship Lab #02 - Conversion Therapy vs Bisexual Responsiveness?

    20 APR

    Kinship Lab #02 - Conversion Therapy vs Bisexual Responsiveness?

    In light of the Colorado Supreme Court case Charles v. Salazar and prior conversation with Julia Sadusky and other conversations with Side X guests, we dig into Conversion Therapy (also called Reparative or Reintegrative Therapy), particularly how it intersects notions around the fluidity of sexuality. Reports on sexual fluidity opens new questions to the ethics of conversation therapies, and maybe different analysis has to why the “change is possible” narratives (e.g. Exodus Ministries) were so destructive. But maybe alternative approaches like “bisexual responsiveness” via Camille Paglia (see the linked Cracks in Postmodernity essay) suggest a different outlook on the whole affair, and open doors to intriguing considerations of the queer experience and same-sex friendship/romantic friendship. References: A fascinating article with so many intriguing quotes: Cracks in Postmodernity: Conversion Therapy vs. Bisexual Responsiveness Our episodes about/with Side X guests: #54 - Side B & Side X in Dialogue: With Jason Thompson from Portland Fellowship #48 - What Is Transformation? with Agape First Ministries #41 - Unexpected Shifts: Josh’s Story of Prayer, Healing, and Attraction #35 - Marco Casanova on Integration, Healing, and Orientation Time Stamps: 00:00 Have you thought of joining us at Revoice? 02:31 Kinship Lab on Conversion Therapy 04:09 Sexual Fluidity Debate 06:33 Tyler’s Harvard Story 10:46 Exodus and Pray Away Documentary 14:39 Modern Reorientation Claims 19:14 Identity Versus Desire/Attraction 24:25 Side B Growth and Chastity 28:19 Defining Attraction, Sanctification and Bisexual Responsiveness 35:36 On Noticing Beauty and Desire 40:53 Paglia and Rigid Labels 45:50 Sexual Category Origins, Queer Identity, and Fluidity 51:29 Friendship Versus Therapy 57:14 Chastity and Same Sex Love 01:04:35 Romantic Friendship Debate 01:06:07 Humility and Closing Thoughts Get full access to New Kinship at newkinship.substack.com/subscribe

    1hr 8min

  4. 15 APR

    #80 - Neth’s Story: Coming Out of the Closet at 54

    Our friend Neth is a father, grandfather, and licensed counselor—and at the first Revoice conference in 2018, he came out to himself as gay, at the age of 54. In this episode, Neth reflected on growing up in an abusive Christian home and how this experience shaped decades of his life. Speaking both personally and professionally, he talked with us about mixed-orientation marriages, why naming yourself “gay” isn’t merely negative self-talk but an act of honesty, and why he ultimately finds Side B compelling. See also (01:05:42): Neth’s advice for people considering therapy. — Note: This episode uses the terms “Side A” and “Side B” and “Side X” as shorthand quite a bit. If you’re new to the conversation, we recommend listening to our episode #3, “A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality.” But just briefly, here’s how people often use these terms: * “Side A” generally refers to the perspective that affirms God can bless same-sex marriage and sexual relationships. Sides B, X, and Y all represent perspectives that uphold the historic Christian sexual ethic of marriage between a man and a woman, and sex within marriage. Beyond that agreement, in essence: * “Side B” recognizes people experience same-sex sexual attraction and may describe that experience using a variety of words or identity terms while still holding to the historical Christian sexual ethic. * ”Side X” tends to emphasize the idea that sexual orientation can change, and ministers to gay people toward the aim of being “ex gay.” * “Side Y” tends to avoid any kind of identity language associated with LGBT concerns, with the goal of not taking on an identity of being “gay.” — ★ Timestamps (00:00) #80 - Neth’s Story: Coming Out of the Closet at 54 (03:44) About Neth; and coming out after 54 years (18:46) Suppressing or repressing, and walking “normally” (31:41) A mixed orientation marriage, “arousal templates” (43:55) Healing looks like accepting myself (50:03) Gay marriage can’t produce babies (57:09) Is saying I’m gay “negative self talk,” or a map of reality? (01:00:45) Seeking church family (01:05:42) Encouragements for listeners: Get in therapy — ★ Send us feedback, questions, comments, and support || Email: communionandshalom@gmail.com | Instagram: @newkinship | Substack: @newkinship — ★ Credits || Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza, Tyler Parker | Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson, carlswensonmusic.com | Podcast Manager: Elena F. | Graphic Designer: Gavin Popken, gavinpopkenart.com ★ Get full access to New Kinship at newkinship.substack.com/subscribe

    1hr 11min

  5. 25 MAR

    #79 - Logan Morrison on Practical Steps for Reaching the Transgender Community

    Logan Morrison is a trans man who leads Kaleidoscope’s trans outreach ministry in New York City. Logan talked with TJ and Tyler about coming out as trans and losing a job over it, and how Christian gospel and Christian communities had positive and negative impacts on him and many others. Tune in also for conversations about: how we distinguish experiences of gender vs. sexuality (”are you trans, or are you just lesbian?”), barriers for trans people in churches (exclusion, pronouns, bathrooms, stereotypes), and some practical steps for Christians wanting to serve and engage trans people (whether or not they’re Christians). About Our Guest: Logan (he/him) serves as the Trans Care Specialist and Community Outreach Coordinator at Kaleidoscope Ministries, where he walks alongside trans individuals with compassion, advocacy, and faith-centered support. Through unexpected turns in his own journey, Logan discerned a calling to steward his trans experience as a bridge for creating space to share the hope of the gospel with other trans folks in authentic and relational ways. He lives in NYC with his chosen family and three dogs. — ★ Timestamps (00:00) #79 - Logan Morrison on Practical Steps for Reaching the Transgender Community (01:56) About Logan (03:45) Moving into trans ministry with Kaleidoscope (10:35) Coming to a definition of “trans”--and of the gospel (19:54) Barriers and misunderstandings: Being asked to leave, politicization (26:51) What’s the difference between sexuality and gender experience? (35:17) How’d you decide you were trans and not lesbian? (49:56) How my theology leads loving outreach to trans people (52:24) Advice to Christians wanting to engage/support trans people (59:44) What gives me hope: Some trans people don’t have baggage with the gospel (01:03:30) Words for trans listeners — ★ Links and References Ragamuffin Gospel: https://www.amazon.com/Ragamuffin-Gospel-Brennan-Manning/dp/1576737160 Kaleidoscope USA: https://www.kaleidoscopeusa.org/ — ★ Send us feedback, questions, comments, and support || Email: communionandshalom@gmail.com | Instagram: @newkinship | Substack: @newkinship — ★ Credits || Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza, Tyler Parker | Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson, carlswensonmusic.com | Podcast Manager: Elena F. | Graphic Designer: Gavin Popken, gavinpopkenart.com ★ Get full access to New Kinship at newkinship.substack.com/subscribe

    1hr 7min
  6. Kinship Lab #01 - The Future of the Side B Project

    16 MAR

    Kinship Lab #01 - The Future of the Side B Project

    Tyler Parker, David Frank, and TJ introduce a new monthly-ish podcast format called the Kinship Lab, created to reflect on recent interviews/events or other emerging ideas. Comment below on any questions or topics you’d like to see in the future. In this first Kinship Lab, they reflect on a recent two-day summit of a handful of Side B leaders, emphasizing growing capacity for fruitful conversation amid differences and experienced trauma. Questions at play: What is Side B? How should Side B engage trans and gender-dysphoria experiences theologically and pastorally? How can Side B respond to ongoing debates about celibate partnerships? Can Side B leadership develop breadth, depth, accountability, and maybe even create a common covenant? Is Side B a gift for Q/SSA people, or for the whole church? 00:00 Welcome to Kinship Lab 02:23 Future of Side B | Why Call It Project 04:25 Summit Setup and Hopes 05:18 Building Trust Through Tension 09:47 Defining Side B Today 14:11 Gender Questions Rising 17:16 Celibate Partnerships Debate 18:53 Learning From Experts 24:01 Global Voices Needed 26:38 Leader Accountability and Unity 29:51 Movement Longevity and Visibility 32:00 Towards a Side B Covenant 33:28 Gender and Queer Culture 35:24 Unity and Accountability 40:57 Why Statements Matter 42:56 Side B as Liberatory Gift 44:45 Theology Group Takeaways 51:44 Closing and Next Topics 55:14 Listener Feedback and Farewell Get full access to New Kinship at newkinship.substack.com/subscribe

    56 min

  7. 4 MAR

    #78 - Eve Tushnet on Catholic Discipleship and Vows of Partnership

    Eve Tushnet (writer and cofounder of Building Catholic Futures) joined Tyler, TJ, and David to talk about forms of kinship beyond marriage—specifically vows of friendship or lifelong celibate partnership. Eve reflects on her own journey to Catholicism, to serving the church as a gay Christian, and to discerning a lifelong partnership herself. ★ About Our Guest Eve Tushnet is the author of two award-winning books on gay Christians' spiritual journeys. She is the co-founder of Building Catholic Futures, which equips Catholic institutions to serve and share the Gospel with gay people. She lives in California with her partner and children. You can email Eve at eve@buildingcatholic.org. — ★ Timestamps (00:00) #78 - Eve Tushnet on Catholic Discipleship and Vows of Partnership (00:34) Eve’s background: Secular Jewish to gay Catholic (02:55) Building Catholic Futures for mission, for leadership (08:07) Core ideas: Spiritual journeys, perspectives, and storytelling (15:16) Churches: What small things can build trust? (18:13) Imagining a future of kinship beyond marriage (27:05) What to do with the rarity of vowed friendship (34:09) How Eve met her partner (39:56) How do you think about “romance” in your celibate partnership? (48:43) Children? Taking responsibility for each other’s families (54:13) Are you sisters? Friends? Life partners? Kin? (57:21) Clergy to support your making of vows? (58:18) Loving people means choosing pain (01:07:58) Advice for people discerning kinships and partnerships — ★ Links and References Building Catholic Futures: https://buildingcatholic.org/ Tenderness (2021): https://www.avemariapress.com/products/tenderness — ★ Send us feedback, questions, comments, and support || Email: communionandshalom@gmail.com | Instagram: @newkinship | Substack: @newkinship — ★ Credits || Eve’s photo: Anthony Esser | Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza, Tyler Parker | Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson, carlswensonmusic.com | Podcast Manager: Elena F. | Graphic Designer: Gavin Popken, gavinpopkenart.com ★ Get full access to New Kinship at newkinship.substack.com/subscribe

    1hr 13min

  8. 12 FEB

    #77 - Odessa the Barefoot (Part 2): On Being "Social Legible as a Woman"

    In Part 2 of our conversation, Odessa offers a deeply reflective exploration of gender through philosophical, theological, and lived lenses. From mushrooms to Aristotle to Christian eschatology, Odessa invites each of us into a nuanced dialogue about embodiment, faithfulness, and what holiness and hospitality might look like amid contemporary debates about gender. Part 1 can be found here: https://newkinship.substack.com/p/76-bearing-witness-through-change Note: This episode uses the terms “Side A” and “Side B” (and X, Y) as shorthand quite a bit. If you’re new to the conversation, you might find it helpful to check out episode #3, where we talk through the four “sides”: ⁠#3 - A-B-Y-X | 4 Sides on SSA/Gay Sexuality⁠ — ★ Timestamps (00:00) #77 - Odessa the Barefoot (Part 2): On Being "Social Legible as a Woman" (02:29) "The project of pursuing womanhood" (07:37) Self-emptying: There's no privilege with being trans (08:25) Defining: Gender (12:09) Do souls have a gender? (15:56) Is being trans "maladaptive" to the social order? (19:57) The project of manhood or womanhood: Can we opt out? (25:50) Side B schools of thought: Identity and family (32:43) Doesn't gender dysphoria sometimes resolve? (39:39) Youth transition: "Not a problem we can solve politically" (42:34) Ivan Illich: Maybe our whole society is a little gender dysphoric (48:01) Connections to transhumanism (53:24) Spiritual experience of queer people vs. cis people (59:08) Ideological hospitality? In Christ there is no male and female (01:05:41) Gendered souls? Reflections on Pauline eschatology (01:15:38) The way of holiness in the trans experience — ★ Send us feedback, questions, comments, and support! Email: communionandshalom@gmail.com | Instagram: @newkinship | Substack: @newkinship | Patreon: @newkinship — ★ Credits Creators and Hosts: David Frank, TJ Espinoza, Tyler Parker | Audio Engineer: Carl Swenson, carlswensonmusic.com | Podcast Manager: Elena F. | Graphic Designer: Gavin Popken, gavinpopkenart.com ★ Get full access to New Kinship at newkinship.substack.com/subscribe

    1hr 25min
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About

Welcome to New Kinship, where we are exploring and renewing ideas of belonging, desire, and being a neighbor in the Kingdom of Jesus. Together we are pursuing the communion and shalom of the church and the world. Pull up a chair and join the conversation! newkinship.substack.com

Information

  • Creator
    David Frank and TJ Espinoza
  • Years Active
    2024 - 2026
  • Episodes
    98
  • Rating
    Clean
  • Copyright
    © New Kinship
  • Show Website
    New Kinship

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