“HR Heretics” | How CPOs, CHROs, Founders, and Boards Build High Performing Companies

HR Heretics

After a decade+ of “blitz-scaling” companies, HR, talent, and People leaders now face an uncertain economy that has already seen big booms and busts. What will it take to construct the next generation of incredible businesses – and where can people leaders have the most business impact?     Hosts Nolan Church and Kelli Dragovich have been through it all, the highs and the lows – IPOs, layoffs, executive turnover, board meetings, culture changes, and more. With a lineup of industry vets and experts, Nolan and Kelli break down the nitty-gritty details, trade offs, and dynamics of constructing high performing companies. Through unfiltered conversations that can only happen between seasoned practitioners – Kelli and Nolan dive deep into the kind of leadership-level strategy that often happens behind closed doors. This show is for those who are ready to ditch conventional wisdom and figure out from first principles what works for their culture, business model, and industry, with the goal of building a resilient and enduring company. You’ll come away with real guidance for seeing around corners, building enduring companies, and carving out an impactful career – plus a newly-honed bullshit detector. Topics frequently touched on in this season include: building high performing cultures, compensation negotiation, performance reviews, company design, equity, M&As, recruiting the best talent, and how to manage your own psychology as a people leader. hrheretics.substack.com

  1. Snowflake CPO Arnnon Geshuri on Their AI Framework for HR

    HACE 3 D

    Snowflake CPO Arnnon Geshuri on Their AI Framework for HR

    In this episode of HR Heretics, Kelli and Nolan interview Arnnon Geshuri, Chief People Officer at Snowflake and 8-year Tesla veteran, about building HR’s strategic authority through data analytics, his automate-augment-human AI framework, and why he recruits economists and data scientists alongside traditional HR professionals. Support our Sponsor: Metaview is the AI platform built for recruiting. Check it out: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics * Our suite of AI agents work across your hiring process to save time, boost decision quality, and elevate the candidate experience. * Learn why team builders at 3,000+ cutting-edge companies like Brex, Deel, and Quora can’t live without Metaview. * It only takes minutes to get up and running. KEEP UP WITH ARNNON, NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN Arnnon: linkedin.com/in/arnnongeshuri Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/ Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/ — Snowflake: https://www.snowflake.com/en/ - For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/ — TIMESTAMPS: (0:00) Intro (1:12) Three Key Lessons from Working with Elon Musk at Tesla (3:36) Why Snowflake: Reinventing the People Function (4:33) The Three-Pronged AI Framework: Automate, Augment, Human-Only (12:02) Sponsor: Metaview (19:45) Data Analytics as the Backbone of HR (24:00) Building the Winning HR Team Portfolio (27:08) Speed Through Imperfection: Fast Pilots and Iteration (29:00) Wrap This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

    30 min
  2. Molly Graham on Founder Depression and Executive Team Dynamics

    HACE 5 D

    Molly Graham on Founder Depression and Executive Team Dynamics

    For today’s essential Heretics 101 feature, Kelli and Nolan have a candid discussion with Silicon Valley operator Molly Graham on founder depression, imposter syndrome, executive team dynamics, and building business-first people operations at scaling companies. Support our Sponsor: Metaview is the AI platform built for recruiting. Check it out: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics * Our suite of AI agents work across your hiring process to save time, boost decision quality, and elevate the candidate experience. * Learn why team builders at 3,000+ cutting-edge companies like Brex, Deel, and Quora can’t live without Metaview. * It only takes minutes to get up and running. KEEP UP WITH MOLLY, NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN Molly: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mograham/ Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/ Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/ — Glue Club: https://www.glueclub.com/ - For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/ — TIMESTAMPS: (00:00) Intro (00:43) Origin of “Giving Away Your Legos” (02:28) Emotions at Work (02:49) Meet Bob the Monster (04:15) Founder Depression Reality (06:27) The Emptiness of Startups (08:00) Life as a Barter Economy (09:14) “I Can’t Do Math” - Professional Moron Strategy (12:00) Growth Solves All Problems (13:00) When Leaders Hate Each Other (14:20) 50% Executive Hiring Success Rate (17:00) 18-Month Executive Tenure (18:34) Business First, Not Happiness (21:00) Era of Excess Is Over (21:51) Best Interview Question (22:05) Wrap This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

    22 min
  3. Get Inside the Mind of your Team’s Best Interviewer, with Vercel’s Viet Nguyen [from 10X Recruiting]

    30 OCT

    Get Inside the Mind of your Team’s Best Interviewer, with Vercel’s Viet Nguyen [from 10X Recruiting]

    Today on HR Heretics, we’re excited to cross post a conversation from Metaview’s 10x Recruiting Podcast featuring Viet Nguyen, Head of Global Recuiting Operations of Vercel, on using AI to analyze top interviewers’ transcripts, extracting their unconscious patterns and building tools that scale interviewing excellence. Support our Sponsor: Metaview is the AI platform built for recruiting. Check it out: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics * Our suite of AI agents work across your hiring process to save time, boost decision quality, and elevate the candidate experience. * Learn why team builders at 3,000+ cutting-edge companies like Brex, Deel, and Quora can’t live without Metaview. * It only takes minutes to get up and running. KEEP UP WITH VIET, NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN Viet: https://www.linkedin.com/in/vietnguyen6/ Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/ Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/ — Vercel: https://vercel.com/ - For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/ — TIMESTAMPS: (00:00) Intro (00:13) Progress Over Perfection (01:00) Why Throwing Messy Data at AI Actually Works (01:37) The Three-Hour Experiment That Changed Everything (02:38) Create Leverage Where Possible (03:30) Do Nothing vs. Do Something: The Real Choice (04:00) Sponsor: Metaview (04:14) Interview Begins: Meet Viet Nguyen (04:51) The Rejection That Led to Friendship (05:26) The Five-Year Tour of Duty in Recruiting Ops (06:37) From Zero Coding Skills to Building AI Tools (08:00) The Gaspar Effect: Decoding Your Best Interviewer (10:30) What Makes a Great Interviewer Great? (13:45) Building the Automated Back-Channel Reference Tool (17:20) The RAG Database That Knows Everyone (20:00) When AI Says “No Connections Found” (And Why That’s Okay) (23:15) The Webhook That Keeps Your Database Fresh (26:51) Perfect Is the Enemy of Progress (28:00) “Anybody Can Cook” - The Non-Technical Builder’s Manifesto (28:27) Automating Interview Debriefs: The Next Frontier (29:28) Real-Time Debrief Summaries: The Dream State (30:04) Where to Find Viet (30:33) Community Show and Tell: The Vision (31:15) We’re All Stupid Together (And That’s the Point) (32:05) Friday Night Recruiting Projects (32:18) Wrap This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

    33 min
  4. "3000 Applicants in Minutes": Recruiting Now with Jason James, Co-founder of Tezi

    28 OCT

    "3000 Applicants in Minutes": Recruiting Now with Jason James, Co-founder of Tezi

    This episode with Jason James from Tezi briefly vanished from Spotify. Don’t ask us why. But it’s too good to not share again. So here’s Jason unpacking the future of recruiting. Please enjoy. Jason James doesn’t sugarcoat it: recruiting coordinators and sourcers won’t exist in 5 years. In this episode, James (Co-founder and COO of Tezi) sits down with Kelli and Nolan to discuss how to screen 3000 applicants in minutes, why most great resumes just rode the elevator up at hypergrowth companies, and why AI bias audits set a higher standard than humans ever could. Support our Sponsors: Ethena is the compliance training platform built for modern workplaces. Visit goethena.com/heretics and get 10% off your first year. Metaview is the AI platform built for recruiting. Check it out: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics * Our suite of AI agents work across your hiring process to save time, boost decision quality, and elevate the candidate experience. * Learn why team builders at 3,000+ cutting-edge companies like Brex, Deel, and Quora can’t live without Metaview. * It only takes minutes to get up and running. KEEP UP WITH JASON, NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN Jason: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jasontezi/ Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/ Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/ — Tezi: https://tezi.ai/ - For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/ — TIMESTAMPS: (00:00) Intro (01:55) Meet Max: The AI Agent Replacing Recruiting Busywork (03:16) AI Bias vs Human Bias: Which Is Fairer? (06:08) Human-in-the-Loop: AI Recommends, Humans Decide (07:34) AI Interviews at Top of Funnel: What Works, What Doesn’t (11:00) Standing Out in a Crowded AI Recruiting Market (14:26) Sponsors: Ethena & Metaview (17:18) “RCs and Sourcers, Find Something Else” (20:30) The New Grad Opportunity: Alpha in a Tough Market (22:23) “Riding the Elevator Up”: The Resume Pedigree Problem (24:26) How to Spot Resume Riders vs Real Contributors (26:00) 100-Hour Weeks and the 9-9-6 Culture Debate (30:00) “The Best Culture Is Growth” (31:00) Tezi’s Culture: Committed to Calm, Team of Adults (34:00) What’s Next for Tezi? (34:56) Wrap This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

    35 min
  5. 'Intelligence on Tap' At Your Org, with Siadhal Magos, Metaview CEO

    23 OCT

    'Intelligence on Tap' At Your Org, with Siadhal Magos, Metaview CEO

    In this latest AI Corner, Metaview CEO Siadhal Magos joins Kelli and Nolan to discuss the “Trough of Disillusionment” in enterprise AI adoption, exploring the gap between inflated expectations and practical implementation realities in recruiting workflows. Watch as Siadhal demonstrates Metaview’s AI sourcing, showcasing its intuitive, agent-based approach that moves beyond traditional Boolean methods. Support our Sponsor: Metaview is the AI platform built for recruiting. Check it out: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics * Our suite of AI agents work across your hiring process to save time, boost decision quality, and elevate the candidate experience. * Learn why team builders at 3,000+ cutting-edge companies like Brex, Deel, and Quora can’t live without Metaview. * It only takes minutes to get up and running. KEEP UP WITH SIADHAL, NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN Siadhal: https://www.linkedin.com/in/siadhal/ Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/ Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/ — Metaview: https://www.metaview.ai/ - For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/ — TIMESTAMPS: (00:00) Intro (00:35) Why Metaview Built AI Sourcing (02:20) The Vision: Humans and AI Working Together (03:09) Technical Breakthrough: Browser Use and Computer Use (04:41) Beta to GA Launch Story (05:01) Promptless Sourcing Feature (06:36) Sponsor: Metaview (07:58) Demo (26:38) Data Sources and LinkedIn Compliance (28:01) Future: ATS Integration and Multi-Database Search (30:13) What’s Coming Next for Metaview (31:29) Product Development Philosophy (32:04) How to Try Metaview Sourcing (32:33) Closing This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

    33 min
  6. Rethink Your Bonus Program

    21 OCT

    Rethink Your Bonus Program

    On today’s Dear Heretics segment, Kelli and Nolan analyze why traditional bonus programs fail at early-stage companies, advocating for flexible sprint incentives and spot bonuses over rigid annual structures that create organizational debt. Support our Sponsor: Metaview is the AI platform built for recruiting. Check it out: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics * Our suite of AI agents work across your hiring process to save time, boost decision quality, and elevate the candidate experience. * Learn why team builders at 3,000+ cutting-edge companies like Brex, Deel, and Quora can’t live without Metaview. * It only takes minutes to get up and running. KEEP UP WITH NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/ Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/ — For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/ — TIMESTAMPS: (00:00) Introduction: The Bonus Program Question (01:04) The Cyclical Wave & Sales Incentives (01:42) Why Early-Stage Companies Struggle (02:46) The Coin-Operating Problem (03:26) The 96% Problem: Legacy & Recruiting Pressure (04:34) You Can’t Put the Toothpaste Back (05:30) Equity Over Bonuses (06:09) Inconsistent Application Across Teams (06:43) Walking It Back Is Brutal (08:06) Sponsor: Metaview (09:28) Technical Debt vs People Debt (11:10) Second Order Consequences (12:31) MBOs Are a Fable (12:53) The Solution: Sprint Incentives (14:04) Surprise and Delight: Spot Bonuses (15:08) Discretionary Budgets & Agility (15:54) Final Thoughts: Avoid People Debt (15:59) Outro This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

    16 min
  7. No Private DMs

    14 OCT

    No Private DMs

    On today’s HR Heretics, Kelli and Nolan debate radical workplace transparency: eliminating private Slack messages. They explore tensions between cultural openness, practical communication needs, and effective use of asynchronous tools. Support our Sponsors: Ethena is the compliance training platform built for modern workplaces. Visit goethena.com/heretics and get 10% off your first year. Metaview is the AI platform built for recruiting. Check it out: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics * Our suite of AI agents work across your hiring process to save time, boost decision quality, and elevate the candidate experience. * Learn why team builders at 3,000+ cutting-edge companies like Brex, Deel, and Quora can’t live without Metaview. * It only takes minutes to get up and running. KEEP UP WITH NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/ Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/ — For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/ — TIMESTAMPS: (00:00) Intro (00:13) The “No Private DMs” Rule (01:04) First Reactions: How This Would Actually Work (01:54) The Case for Transparency: Underground Slack Channels Are Toxic (02:35) The Reality Check: Leaders Still Need Private Conversations (03:42) Is Radical Transparency Just Performance Art? (04:20) The Productivity Problem: Slack Surfing vs Getting Work Done (05:11) Creating a “How We Slack” Document with Clear Rules (06:15) Using Public Channels to Develop Holistic Leaders (07:13) The Jensen Huang Model: Why He Doesn’t Do One-on-Ones (08:12) Sponsors: Ethena | Metaview (11:34) Hyper-Transparency from the CEO Builds Trust (12:31) It All Comes Down to Judgment (13:11) The Audio Message Revolution: Why Voice Beats Typing (15:20) Good vs Bad Audio Messages: It’s About Sender Judgment (16:15) The 10x Pace: Why Traditional Meeting Cadences Don’t Work Anymore (17:34) Final Thoughts: Experiment with Your Communication Style (17:46) Outro This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

    18 min
  8. Fractional Work's Dirty Secret: How to Do a Full-Time Job in 25 Hours - Insights from Sally Thornton, Forshay

    9 OCT

    Fractional Work's Dirty Secret: How to Do a Full-Time Job in 25 Hours - Insights from Sally Thornton, Forshay

    For today’s essential Heretics 101 feature, Kelli and Nolan talk to Sally Thornton, CEO and Founder of Forshay who offers a candid examination of fractional executive work, exploring trust barriers, adverse selection problems, pricing models, and why consulting acumen matters more than traditional executive experience. Support our Sponsors: Ethena is the compliance training platform built for modern workplaces. Visit goethena.com/heretics and get 10% off your first year. Metaview is the AI platform built for recruiting. Check it out: https://www.metaview.ai/heretics * Our suite of AI agents work across your hiring process to save time, boost decision quality, and elevate the candidate experience. * Learn why team builders at 3,000+ cutting-edge companies like Brex, Deel, and Quora can’t live without Metaview. * It only takes minutes to get up and running. KEEP UP WITH SALLY, NOLAN + KELLI ON LINKEDIN Sally: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sallythornton/ Nolan: https://www.linkedin.com/in/nolan-church/ Kelli: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kellidragovich/ — LINKS: Forshay: https://forshay.com/ - For coaching and advising inquire at https://kellidragovich.com/ — TIMESTAMPS: (00:00) Intro (01:46) The Trust Barrier: Why Companies Resist Fractional Work (03:34) The TAM Debate and Market Dynamics Post-COVID (05:14) The Dirty Secret: There’s No Such Thing as Fractional Work (06:34) Sponsors: Ethena | Metaview (10:01) Who’s Buying and Why Finance Gets It (11:06) Let’s Talk Money: The 65/35 Structure and Market Rates (12:30) The Honeymoon Phase: Managing Boundaries and Expectations (14:44) How to Assess Fractional Executives: The 75% Rule (16:31) From Interim to Modular: How the Market Evolved (18:04) The Black Hole Question: Why Nobody’s Calling You Back (19:36) Network for Yourself: Nobody’s Managing Your Career But You (21:36) How to Sustain 15 Years: Running Experiments & Following Curiosity (22:31) Closing Thoughts: Agents for Executives Don’t Yet Exist (23:11) Outro This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit hrheretics.substack.com

    23 min

Información

After a decade+ of “blitz-scaling” companies, HR, talent, and People leaders now face an uncertain economy that has already seen big booms and busts. What will it take to construct the next generation of incredible businesses – and where can people leaders have the most business impact?     Hosts Nolan Church and Kelli Dragovich have been through it all, the highs and the lows – IPOs, layoffs, executive turnover, board meetings, culture changes, and more. With a lineup of industry vets and experts, Nolan and Kelli break down the nitty-gritty details, trade offs, and dynamics of constructing high performing companies. Through unfiltered conversations that can only happen between seasoned practitioners – Kelli and Nolan dive deep into the kind of leadership-level strategy that often happens behind closed doors. This show is for those who are ready to ditch conventional wisdom and figure out from first principles what works for their culture, business model, and industry, with the goal of building a resilient and enduring company. You’ll come away with real guidance for seeing around corners, building enduring companies, and carving out an impactful career – plus a newly-honed bullshit detector. Topics frequently touched on in this season include: building high performing cultures, compensation negotiation, performance reviews, company design, equity, M&As, recruiting the best talent, and how to manage your own psychology as a people leader. hrheretics.substack.com

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