In this episode of We Can Work It Out, Dr Jonathan Lord is joined by Professor Richard Hyman, one of the most influential figures in the study of industrial and employment relations. Across a wide-ranging and reflective conversation, Richard draws on more than five decades of scholarship to examine why questions of power, control and resistance remain central to working life, even as the forms of work, technology and regulation continue to change . The episode begins with Richard’s own intellectual journey, from philosophy and economics into trade union history and industrial relations, shaped by the turbulence of post-war Britain and a university sector that still allowed space for critical, heterodox voices. From there, the discussion moves to the profound transformations in employment relations since the 1970s: the decline of collective bargaining and union density, the restructuring of industry, globalisation, and the increasingly assertive role of employers and the state in reshaping workplace governance . A central theme is the uneasy relationship between collective power and individual employment rights. Richard explains how the expansion of legal protections such as unfair dismissal and redundancy payments brought real gains, but also risked commodifying injustice and displacing collective solidarity with legal remedies. Drawing on classic thinkers, he warns against treating legalism as a substitute for organisation, arguing instead for a careful balance between law and collective capacity. The conversation also explores democracy within trade unions, revisiting the “iron law of oligarchy” and contrasting highly participatory traditions with the realities faced by large, heterogeneous organisations. Richard reflects on Marxism as a critical framework for understanding capitalism’s contradictions, rejecting caricatures while defending its continued relevance for analysing work, inequality and power in the twenty-first century . Looking beyond Britain, the episode examines European employment relations, EU integration, social partnership and co-determination, as well as the tensions between market, class and society that shape different national trade union traditions. Richard is sceptical of partnership rhetoric divorced from power, yet open to institutional compromises where they provide workers with a foothold for rebuilding collective voice. The discussion closes with reflections on platform work, algorithmic management and artificial intelligence, where Richard insists that while technologies change, the underlying struggle over control and resistance persists. He offers a characteristically sober but hopeful outlook. This episode is essential listening for anyone interested in the history, theory and future of work, and in why power still matters at work today. Enjoy the discussion.
