Chatter Lawfare

A former president accused of treason. Talk of secession. Concerns about the lack of accountability for insurrection. These issues appear in headlines today, but we've been here before--in the 1860s.
For this episode, David Priess talked with legal historian Cynthia Nicoletti about her passion for the intersection of history and law, what the U.S. Constitution says and does not say about secession, differing legal arguments on the topic during and after the Civil War, the government's indecision surrounding the prosecution of former Confederate States of America President Jefferson Davis, the strengths of Davis's primary lawyer Charles O'Conor, O'Conor's strategy for preventing a treason prosecution, how the Supreme Court decision in Texas v. White (1869) declared secession invalid, how and why public anger about acts against the U.S government fades, and lessons from the 1860s for secession calls today.
Chatter is a production of Lawfare and Goat Rodeo. This episode was produced and edited by Cara Shillenn of Goat Rodeo. Podcast theme by David Priess, featuring music created using Groovepad.
Mentioned during this episode:
The book Secession on Trial by Cynthia Nicoletti
The book Rehearsal for Reconstruction by Willie Lee Rose

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The Academy loves a good spy flick, and so do we! This week, Shane Harris talks with Washington Post culture critic Alyssa Rosenberg about the enduring power of espionage on the big screen. 
Movies like Zero Dark Thirty, the Mission: Impossible franchise, and this year’s Top Gun: Maverick and All Quiet on the Western Front, which both took home Oscars, help us understand global conflict as they wrestle with questions of personal morality. How do the stories of James Bond and George Smiley help us make sense of the fate of nations? And why is Hollywood finding it nearly impossible to tell stories about great power competition between the U.S. and China? 
Shane and Alyssa go way back, and this is a fun, lively conversation about spy stories that have resonated through the decades. Alyssa has written for years about popular culture, books, and more recently parenting. 
Alyssa’s work at The Post: https://www.washingtonpost.com/people/alyssa-rosenberg/ 
Alyssa on Twitter: https://twitter.com/AlyssaRosenberg?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor
Alyssa’s podcast on movies, Across the Movie Aisle: https://www.thebulwark.com/podcast/across-the-movie-aisle/ 

Movies discussed in this episode: 
Zero Dark Thirty 
Top Gun: Maverick
Mission: Impossible 
All Quiet on the Western Front 
Casino Royale 
Skyfall 
The Hunt for Red October 
Breach 
Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy 
Chatter is a production of Lawfare and Goat Rodeo. This episode was produced and edited by Cara Shillenn of Goat Rodeo. Podcast theme by David Priess, featuring music created using Groovepad.


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Mark Hertling retired from the U.S. Army as a lieutenant general a decade ago, but he's kept busy since then as a CNN military analyst, hospital organization executive, book author, speaker on leadership, and adjunct professor. Most recently, he accepted President Biden's appointment as Chairman of the American Battle Monuments Commission. Celebrating its 100th anniversary this month, the commission is a unique institution that commemorates the service and sacrifices of members of the U.S. military, with a special focus on the battle monuments and military cemeteries outside of the United States.
David Priess asked Hertling about his road to West Point, his experiences there and throughout his military career, leadership and training in the military and beyond, the origins and mission of the American Battle Monuments Commission, some of the worldwide cemeteries and memorials to fallen U.S. service members, and more.
Chatter is a production of Lawfare and Goat Rodeo. This episode was produced and edited by Noam Osband and Cara Shillenn of Goat Rodeo. Podcast theme by David Priess, featuring music created using Groovepad.
Mentioned during this episode:
The book Growing Physician Leaders by Mark Hertling
The book Generalship: Its Diseases and Their Cure by J.F.C. Fuller
The American Battle Monuments Commission
The Chatter podcast episode 9/11 Memorialization with Marita Sturken
Mark Hertling on Twitter


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For the past 20 years, Richard Haass has led the Council on Foreign Relations, building on his national security experience in government and his related work in academia and think tanks. Although his efforts have focused overwhelmingly on foreign policy, his central concern has turned to something closer to home: the decline of democratic norms in the United States. He's even written a new book about this problem and something we all can do about it, The Bill of Obligations: The Ten Habits of Good Citizens.
David Priess and Haass discussed the State Department's Policy Planning Staff and Haass' experiences leading it, reflections on his service in the Bush 41 and Bush 43 administrations, the mission of the Council on Foreign Relations and Haass's longest-ever tenure of leading it, the Russian invasion of Ukraine and its many implications, the roles of China and India in this shifting strategic landscape, democratic decline in the United States, the ten habits that American citizens can adopt to heal our divisions and safeguard representative democracy in the U.S., and more.
Chatter is a production of Lawfare and Goat Rodeo. This episode was produced and edited by Noam Osband and Cara Shillenn of Goat Rodeo. Podcast theme by David Priess, featuring music created using Groovepad.
Works mentioned during this episode:
The book The Bill of Obligations: The Ten Habits of Good Citizens by Richard Haass
The book Foreign Policy Begins at Home by Richard Haass
The movie History of the World: Part I
The book Thinking in Time by Richard E. Neustadt and Ernest R. May
The TV show Full Swing

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James Fallows on What is Happening in the Sky 
It’s been an eventful few months for flying objects. A Chinese spy balloon captured national attention and sparked an international incident--and a lot of hot air. But closer to the ground, there have been two near collisions of commercial jets at U.S. airports.
This week, Shane talks to journalist (and pilot) James Fallows about “What the hell is happening in the sky?” to borrow from one of his recent posts. Fallows has been chronicling American life for decades, most notably as a longtime correspondent for The Atlantic. Now he’s writing about aviation, spy balloons, politics, and whatever else catches his observant eye on his new site, “Breaking the News,” hosted on Substack. 
Fallows talked about the two near misses at Austin airport and JFK, which could have led to a catastrophic loss of human life, and how an overburdened commercial aviation system may be poised for a disaster. He shared his insights about the Chinese spy balloon kerfuffle, informed in part from his time living in China as a correspondent. And Fallows reflected on the life and legacy of President Jimmy Carter, for whom he wrote speeches at the White House. 
“What the Hell is Happening in the Sky?” Fallows recent post on his new Substack page https://fallows.substack.com/p/what-the-hell-is-happening-in-the 
Fallows on Twitter https://twitter.com/JamesFallows?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor 
Fallows’ archive at The Atlantic https://www.theatlantic.com/author/james-fallows/ 
And his recent reflections on Jimmy Carter’s lucky life https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2023/02/jimmy-carter-accomplishments-james-fallows/673146/ 
Books about flying discussed on this episode include: 
West with the Night: A Memoir by Beryl Markham https://us.macmillan.com/books/9780865477636/westwiththenight  
Fate is the Hunter by Ernest K. Gann https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/Fate-is-the-Hunter/Ernest-K-Gann/9780671636036 
Inside the Sky, among others, by William Langewiesche https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/authors/16660/william-langewiesche/ 
Chatter is a production of Lawfare and Goat Rodeo. This episode was produced and edited by Ian Enright of Goat Rodeo.
Podcast theme by David Priess, featuring music created using Groovepad.


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Along with co-editors Peter Feaver, William Inboden, and Meghan O'Sullivan, former National Security Advisor Stephen Hadley is editor of the new Hand-Off: The Foreign Policy George W. Bush Passed to Barack Obama. This unique and massive book contains 30 Transition Memos prepared in 2008-2009 under Hadley's direction by the outgoing George W. Bush administration’s National Security Council staff for the incoming Obama Administration—each with a postscript by these same experts critically assessing the Bush foreign policy legacy.
Historians and national security junkies usually have to wait a long time for such materials to see the light of day; this consolidated content reveals much, and relatively quickly, about the various policies of the time and the extensive effort that was put into the gold-standard 2008-2009 transition.
David Priess asked Hadley about his experiences with presidential transitions dating back to the 1970s; how it felt to be on the receiving end of the transition process in 2000-2001; President George W. Bush's transition mandate to him and to Chief of Staff Josh Bolten in 2008; the substantive NSC transition memos on the Freedom Agenda, the War on Terror, Iraq, Afghanistan, Russia, and PEPFAR; public perceptions of the national security advisor's role; how much national security advisors should interact with the media; and more.
Chatter is a production of Lawfare and Goat Rodeo. This episode was produced and edited by Cara Shillenn of Goat Rodeo. Podcast theme by David Priess, featuring music created using Groovepad.
Works mentioned during this episode:
The book Hand-Off: The Foreign Policy George W. Bush Passed to Barack Obama, edited by Stephen J. Hadley
The TV show The West Wing
The book Diplomacy by Henry Kissinger
The book The Icon and the Axe by James Billington

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