Counsel to Counsel - Career Advice for Lawyers

Stephen Seckler: attorney career, marketing and leadership coach
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Counsel to Counsel is a periodic podcast produced by Stephen Seckler of Seckler Attorney Coaching (www.seckler.com). It addresses important career, marketing, and leadership issues facing attorneys. The target audience is associates, counsel and partners at law firms of all sizes; but the podcast also addresses issues that are relevant to in-house counsel, law students or any lawyer who is looking for career insights inside or outside of the law. Counsel to Counsel is aimed at individual lawyers who are looking to increase their own career satisfaction and build their marketing and leadership skills. The podcast features interviews with leading consultants, career professionals and marketing experts who advise attorneys on careers, marketing, law firm management and related issues. The guests are also a roster of successful attorneys who have found career satisfaction inside and outside the law. Counsel to Counsel is a direct outgrowth of the blog Counsel to Counsel which Stephen Seckler has been publishing since 2005. Since graduating from law school in the late 1980s, Stephen Seckler has been advising lawyers on career and marketing issues and working with a broad mix of law firms and corporate law departments. He began blogging when legal blogging was in its infancy and his blog Counsel to Counsel was named to the ABA Journal's Blawg 100 in 2007 and 2008 (the first two years that list was in existence). Steve has written extensively on career and marketing issues and he has spoken at many law school, law firm and bar association events. He served on the Boston Bar Association's Standing Committee on Work Life Balance and was Vice Chair of the Law Practice Management Section of the Massachusetts Bar Association. He is active in the, the ProVisors business network, sits on the Career Center Board of the American Bar Association, and on the editorial boards of the ABA publications GPSolo and GPSolo eReport. He has been quoted frequently in the legal and business press. Since 2021, he has been named a top coach in the Massachusetts Lawyers Weekly Reader Rankings Awards (#1 or #2 for Business Development Coach, Lawyer Outplacement Service, and Executive Coaching). He is the author of Think Like a Lawyer, Act Like an Entrepreneur (American Bar Association, 2025).

  1. 2 days ago

    Building a Law Practice by Design, Not by Default with Susan Guthrie

    What if you could start your law practice all over again? Would you build it the same way? Many lawyers build successful practices without ever consciously deciding what they want those practices to look like. They inherit systems from previous employers, follow traditional approaches to billing and marketing, and develop habits that may not serve their clients or their own professional satisfaction. My guest on this episode of Counsel to Counsel is Susan Guthrie, a nationally recognized attorney, mediator, practice-building strategist, and past chair of the American Bar Association Section of Dispute Resolution. Susan and I have gotten to know each other over the past year through our overlapping work coaching lawyers, our involvement with the ABA, and our shared interest in helping legal professionals build more satisfying and successful careers. I've been particularly impressed by Susan's generosity and her commitment to the concept of "coopetition," the idea that we all benefit when we support one another, even when our work overlaps. Susan is the creator of The Practice Playbook Series, including the recently released second edition of The Business Plan Playbook: A Step-by-Step Guide to Intentional Practice Design for Lawyers and Dispute Resolution Professionals. Her forthcoming ABA book, Future-Proof: How to Build a Thriving, AI-Ready Legal and Dispute Resolution Practice, explores how artificial intelligence, generational change, and evolving client expectations are reshaping the profession. In our conversation, Susan shares her own career journey from family law litigation to mediation and practice development consulting. We discuss why lawyers often build their practices by default rather than by design, how to rethink inherited systems and assumptions, and why intentional practice design can lead to greater professional satisfaction. We also explore the three forces Susan believes will fundamentally reshape legal practice over the next several years: AI, generational turnover, and changing client expectations. We discuss what those changes mean for hourly billing, the value lawyers provide to clients, and the skills professionals will need to remain competitive. Throughout our conversation, Susan emphasizes that insight alone isn't enough. Lawyers need practical strategies for implementing change and building practices that can evolve as their careers and the profession change. Whether you're launching your own practice, rethinking an established one, or wondering how to prepare for the future of law, Susan offers valuable perspectives on creating a practice that works for you rather than simply continuing along a path you never consciously chose. Key Takeaways Build your practice by design, not by default. Many lawyers inherit systems, processes, and assumptions from previous employers without considering whether those approaches fit their own goals. Intentional practice design begins by examining what you want from your practice and making deliberate choices about how to build it. You don't have to abandon everything you've learned. Susan distinguishes between inherited, reactive, and intentional elements of a practice. Existing systems may have real value, but lawyers should examine them critically and make changes where necessary rather than simply continuing to do things because that's how they've always been done. A business plan should be a living document. Susan's concept of a Living Practice Plan goes beyond the traditional business plan. Rather than creating a document that sits on a shelf, lawyers can develop a framework that guides everyday decisions about clients, services, pricing, marketing, and professional priorities. Professional involvement creates opportunities. Susan's experience with the American Bar Association demonstrates the value of showing up, volunteering, and becoming actively involved in professional organizations. Those relationships and opportunities can lead to unexpected career developments. Three major forces are reshaping the legal profession. Artificial intelligence, generational turnover, and changing client expectations are converging to transform how lawyers work, how clients engage legal professionals, and what younger generations expect from their careers. AI is changing what clients are paying for. As technology makes legal work more efficient, traditional hourly billing becomes harder to justify. Susan argues that lawyers will increasingly need to emphasize the value of their judgment, experience, strategic thinking, and professional expertise rather than the amount of time they spend completing tasks. Implementation matters more than inspiration. Lawyers can attend webinars, read books, and collect good ideas without changing anything about their practices. Susan emphasizes taking concrete steps to implement what you've learned and making incremental improvements that build toward a more satisfying and sustainable practice. In This Episode 02:56 – Susan's career journey from family law litigation to mediation and practice development 05:40 – How involvement in the ABA creates relationships and career opportunities 12:17 – What it means to build a law practice by design rather than by default 15:48 – Learning from inherited systems while developing your own approach to practice 21:13 – The Business Plan Playbook, intentional practice design, and the Living Practice Plan 28:31 – How AI, generational change, and evolving client expectations are transforming the legal profession 33:52 – The future of hourly billing and why lawyers need to communicate their value differently 38:01 – Turning ideas into action and preparing your practice for the future

  2. 12 Oct

    Why Lawyers Resist AI and How Law Firms Can Overcome It, with Dr. Gleb Tsipursky

    Artificial intelligence is changing the practice of law. Lawyers are increasingly using AI for legal research, drafting, business development, and a growing number of other tasks. But while some lawyers are enthusiastically embracing these tools, others remain skeptical, concerned about confidentiality and accuracy, or worried about what AI will mean for their careers. My guest on this episode of Counsel to Counsel is Dr. Gleb Tsipursky, a behavioral scientist and CEO of Disaster Avoidance Experts, a consultancy focused on the future of work. His new book, The Psychology of AI Adoption at Work: From Resistance to Results, published by Georgetown University Press, explores why organizations struggle to get employees to adopt AI and what leaders can do about it. Gleb argues that successful AI adoption is not primarily a technology problem. It's a human problem involving psychology, trust, organizational culture, and leadership. This is particularly relevant to law firms, where lawyers are trained to be skeptical, question assumptions, and identify risks. But as Gleb explains, skepticism itself isn't necessarily the biggest obstacle. He identifies three psychological barriers that can interfere with AI adoption: fear of job loss, threats to professional identity, and the shame or stigma some lawyers associate with using AI. We discuss why traditional approaches to technology implementation may not work with AI, how law firm leaders can encourage experimentation and overcome resistance, and why effective training needs to focus on tasks lawyers actually want to improve. We also explore the importance of developing AI skills alongside legal expertise, how AI may change the economics and staffing of law firms, and why communication, empathy, and client relationships may become even more important as technology advances. For lawyers and law firm leaders wondering how to navigate these changes, Gleb offers practical advice about making AI adoption less threatening, more useful, and more likely to succeed. Key Takeaways AI adoption is fundamentally a people problem. Unlike traditional software implementations, successful AI adoption requires lawyers to be motivated and engaged rather than simply following standardized procedures. Law firms need to address the psychological and cultural barriers that prevent people from experimenting with these tools. Three psychological barriers explain much of the resistance. Gleb identifies lawyers who fear AI will eliminate their jobs, experienced lawyers who feel their professional identity is threatened, and lawyers who use AI but are reluctant to admit it because of social stigma. Each group requires a different leadership response. Skepticism can actually be an advantage. Although lawyers are trained to question assumptions and identify risks, Gleb argues that these traits can make them better AI users because they are more likely to evaluate the accuracy and reliability of AI-generated work. Better AI results require better instructions. Lawyers who are disappointed with AI-generated work may not be providing sufficient context, information, or direction. Gleb suggests treating AI like a capable but inexperienced assistant who needs detailed instructions and whose work must be reviewed. Start with tasks lawyers don't enjoy. Rather than forcing lawyers to use AI for their most sophisticated legal work, firms can build enthusiasm by demonstrating how AI can reduce time spent on emails, invoicing, and other routine activities. Training is more effective when lawyers leave with tools they can immediately use. Law firm leaders need to model AI adoption. Managing partners and practice leaders can reduce resistance by openly discussing how they use AI, encouraging lawyers to share successful applications, and creating an environment where experimentation and learning are supported. Legal expertise combined with AI skills will become increasingly valuable. As AI changes how legal services are delivered, lawyers will need to develop their technological capabilities while strengthening the judgment, communication, empathy, and client relationship skills that distinguish their services from what technology alone can provide. In This Episode 01:39 – Dr. Gleb Tsipursky's background in behavioral science and organizational decision-making 04:58 – Why AI adoption is a psychological and cultural challenge 10:07 – The three psychological barriers that prevent lawyers from embracing AI 16:13 – Why AI produces poor results and how better prompting can improve outcomes 20:48 – How law firm leaders can address fear, resistance, and stigma 28:46 – Making AI training practical and relevant to lawyers' daily work 33:51 – The skills lawyers will need to remain competitive in an AI-driven profession 35:51 – Three steps law firm leaders can take to improve AI adoption over the next 90 days

  3. 27 Sept

    Stepping Off the Treadmill: Ginny Johnson on Sabbaticals, Career Transitions, and the Future of Legal Careers

    What happens when a successful lawyer decides to step away from a demanding career without having the next job lined up? My guest on this episode of Counsel to Counsel, Ginny Johnson, did just that. After more than two decades in the legal profession, including senior positions at major law firms and leadership roles at several corporations, Ginny decided to take a sabbatical. She used the time to travel, focus on her health, think about what she wanted next, and embark on what became a turbocharged networking and listening tour. Ginny spoke with hundreds of lawyers, business leaders, investors, and other professionals. What began as an exploration of her own next chapter ultimately became the foundation for a paper examining artificial intelligence, the changing legal market, and the future of legal careers. Those conversations also changed Ginny's thinking about her own career. Rather than simply moving into another traditional general counsel role, she recently joined Outside GC as a partner, providing fractional and interim legal leadership and strategic advice to businesses. In our conversation, we talk about Ginny's career journey from BigLaw litigation to in-house leadership, why she decided to take a sabbatical after 23 years of working continuously, and what she gained by giving herself permission to step away. We also discuss the extraordinary role networking has played throughout her career, the expanding responsibilities of general counsel, how AI may reshape legal careers and the traditional law firm apprenticeship model, and why experienced lawyers may have new opportunities to build more flexible, portfolio-style careers. Most importantly, Ginny's experience offers a useful lesson for lawyers who are feeling stuck or uncertain about what comes next. Sometimes creating space, talking to people, gathering information, and remaining open to possibilities can lead you somewhere you hadn't originally planned to go. Key Takeaways Careers don't have to be linear. A career move doesn't always have to mean a bigger title or more compensation. Sometimes a lateral move, a step back, or even a break can create opportunities for growth. Relationships create career opportunities. Except for her first law firm job, every major career move Ginny has made resulted from someone in her network connecting her with an opportunity. Going in-house requires a different mindset. Ginny discusses learning to communicate more succinctly, understand the business deeply, and give executives an actual recommendation rather than simply explaining all the possible legal outcomes. A sabbatical can create valuable perspective. After 23 years of working continuously, Ginny stepped away without another job lined up. She used the time to travel, focus on her health, reflect on what she wanted, and explore different possibilities for her next chapter. Networking can be a form of research. Ginny's listening tour grew to more than 500 conversations. Those conversations expanded her network, helped her understand how the legal market is changing, and ultimately became the foundation for her research paper. AI is changing legal work and creating new career possibilities. Ginny sees opportunities for experienced lawyers to provide fractional, interim, and strategic advice without working as a full-time general counsel or within a traditional law firm structure. At the same time, AI raises important questions about how junior lawyers will develop the experience and judgment they need. Judgment, relationships, and context remain critical. AI can produce work much faster, but experienced lawyers are still needed to determine whether the output is accurate, understand what it may have missed, and apply strategic judgment to a client's particular circumstances. In This Episode 01:36 – Ginny's journey from BigLaw litigator to general counsel and chief legal officer 05:59 – How networking helped Ginny make the move in-house 10:28 – What lawyers need to learn when moving from private practice to business 16:30 – Taking a sabbatical after 23 years without another job lined up 24:24 – Health span, career longevity, and not waiting too long to enjoy life 28:56 – Turning a networking tour into more than 500 conversations and a research paper 33:03 – AI, the expanding GC role, and the emerging advisory economy 41:02 – What remains uniquely valuable about lawyers in the age of AI

  4. 14 Sept

    From Practicing Law to Consulting with Law Firms on Strategy, Operations, and Growth

    One of the questions I hear most frequently from lawyers who are unhappy practicing law is: What else can I do with a law degree? Making that transition can be difficult, particularly when you've spent years building expertise and credibility as a lawyer and suddenly find yourself trying to convince employers that your skills translate to something very different. My guest on this episode of Counsel to Counsel is Shireen Hilal, CEO of Maior, a consulting firm that helps law firms and other professional services firms improve their strategy, operations, growth, and profitability. Shireen began her career as a BigLaw litigator and practiced for about a decade before moving to the business side of professional services. She went on to hold senior roles at BDO and KPMG, served as COO of a national law firm, led growth for a communications consulting firm, and ultimately launched her own consulting business. What makes Shireen's story particularly useful for lawyers contemplating a career change is that she did not have an MBA or a traditional background in business, strategy, or operations. She had to figure out how to translate her legal experience into something employers could understand and value. She also had to deal with a lot of rejection along the way. In our conversation, we discuss how she figured out what interested her, how she broke into her first nonlegal role, the value of persistence and preparation, and which skills from practicing law proved most transferable. We also talk about the importance of curiosity, networking, taking initiative, and being willing to do more than simply submit a résumé. For lawyers who know they want something different but aren't sure what comes next, Shireen's career is a good reminder that leaving legal practice does not mean throwing away your legal training. Key Takeaways Your first move out of legal practice may be the hardest one. Shireen sent out many résumés and experienced a lot of rejection before BDO was willing to take a chance on her. She also took a pay cut to make the transition. Applying for jobs may not be enough. Shireen tried to identify the decision-maker and contact that person directly, explaining why she was interested and what she thought she could contribute despite lacking the traditional experience. Networking and persistence can help bridge the experience gap. Shireen succeeded largely through cold outreach, but we also discuss why relationships can make a career transition easier and why being able to hear "no" and keep going matters. Taking initiative can change the trajectory of your career. As a first-year associate doing document review, Shireen identified important documents, organized them, and brought them directly to the senior partner. That initiative quickly led to greater responsibility. Legal skills can be highly transferable. Attention to detail, problem-solving, preparation, curiosity, understanding facts, and figuring out what actually needs to get done have all been valuable throughout Shireen's business career. Explore before deciding what comes next. If you know you want to leave practice but don't know what you want to do instead, talk to people about their work. Learn what they actually do every day. Curiosity can help you identify possibilities you might not otherwise have considered. Leaving practice doesn't mean throwing away your legal training. Shireen believes her experience practicing law and running a law firm remains an important part of the value and credibility she brings to her consulting clients. Preparation can compensate for a lack of experience. Before interviewing for a chief of staff role at a major airline, Shireen studied the company and its competitors extensively. Her advice to lawyers is to use what they already know how to do well: dig into the facts, develop conclusions, and demonstrate how they would approach the job. Timestamps 00:05 – What else can you do with a law degree? 02:09 – Shireen's path from BigLaw litigation to the business side 10:13 – Realizing traditional legal practice wasn't the right fit 13:19 – Breaking into business without an MBA or traditional business background 16:19 – Networking, cold outreach, rejection, and persistence 21:00 – The legal skills that transfer to business roles 34:05 – What to do when you want to leave law but don't know what comes next 38:40 – Why leaving practice doesn't mean throwing away your legal training

  5. 1 Sept

    How Lawyers Can Develop a Thicker Skin and Become More Resilient—with Dr. Larry Richard

    Why are lawyers so good at spotting problems and sometimes so bad at letting them go? For more than two decades, I've followed the research of Dr. Larry Richard, widely recognized as the leading expert on the psychology of lawyer behavior. His work has had a profound impact on my own career and provides a foundation for much of the coaching work I do with lawyers. His research has helped me understand not only my clients, but also my own tenancies and why so many of us who went to law school think and react the way we do. In this episode of Counsel to Counsel, Larry joins me to discuss his new book, Thin-Skinned: Why Lawyers Are So Low in Resilience, and the New Science That Can Help, that he co-authored with his wife Dr. D'Arcy Lyness (published by the American Bar Association.) Larry's research shows that lawyers differ significantly from the general population on a number of personality traits. Most strikingly, 90% of lawyers score below the 50th percentile for psychological resilience compared to the general public. The same skepticism and problem-spotting abilities that help us practice law effectively can make us more prone to negative thinking, defensiveness, and difficulty dealing with uncertainty, criticism, and change. The encouraging news is that resilience is highly learnable. Larry explains the practical ways that lawyers can strengthen their resilience by reducing negative thinking, increasing positive emotions, developing stronger social connections, and taking better care of themselves. We also discuss how these ideas apply to career development, business development, leadership, feedback, and the everyday challenges lawyers face. I've practiced and recommended many of these techniques for years including mindfulness, gratitude, exercise, cultivating relationships, and challenging negative thinking. Thin-Skinned gave me a much deeper understanding of why they work and offers many new ideas that I can use both personally and with my coaching clients. Key Takeaways Lawyers really are psychologically different. Larry's decades of research identify seven traits on which lawyers tend to be outliers: skepticism, autonomy, abstract reasoning, urgency, sociability, cognitive empathy, and resilience. The traits that make us effective lawyers can work against us elsewhere. Skepticism and looking for what could go wrong are enormously valuable when practicing law, but carrying that mindset into our personal and professional relationships can undermine resilience. Being "thin-skinned" doesn't mean being weak. A lawyer may confidently handle an aggressive opposing counsel yet become defensive when a colleague questions their behavior. Ambiguous interpersonal situations are often where low resilience shows up. Resilience can be learned. Unlike many personality traits, resilience is heavily influenced by learning and experience, which means there are concrete things we can do to improve it. Thoughts, feelings, and actions reinforce one another. Changing any one of the three can influence the others. For lawyers who struggle with rejection in business development or career advancement, simply taking action repeatedly can reduce the sense of threat over time. Positive emotions aren't just "feel-good" exercises. Music, gratitude, nature, exercise, and other positive experiences have measurable effects that can help counteract the physiological impact of stress and negative emotions. Relationships are a powerful source of resilience. Strong, authentic social connections help us absorb stress and cope with change. That is particularly important for lawyers, who tend to score lower on sociability. Law firm leaders need to understand lawyer resilience. Leaders who default to fixing deficiencies and react defensively to suggestions can undermine trust. Strengths-based leadership and an understanding of how low-resilience lawyers respond to feedback can produce better results. Timestamps 00:04 – Why Dr. Larry Richard's work has influenced my career and coaching 05:44 – The seven personality traits that make lawyers different 09:44 – Why 90% of lawyers are "thin-skinned" 16:36 – The good news: resilience can be learned 21:01 – The science and importance of positive emotions 28:03 – Taking action despite fear, uncertainty, and rejection 37:20 – Where to start if building resilience feels overwhelming 44:40 – What law firm leaders can do to build more resilient workplaces About Dr. Larry Richard Dr. Larry Richard began his career as a lawyer before earning a Ph.D. in psychology and devoting his career to studying lawyers and lawyer behavior. His research has helped law firms and lawyers better understand leadership, management, well-being, personality, and change. His new book, Thin-Skinned: Why Lawyers Are So Low in Resilience, and the New Science That Can Help, co-authored with Dr. D'Arcy Lyness, is available from the American Bar Association. Larry describes it not simply as an explanation of why lawyers struggle with resilience, but as a practical collection of evidence-based strategies for doing something about it. Learn more about Dr. Richard, his work, and the book at https://www.lawyerbrain.com/.

  6. 12 Aug

    Legal Marketing for New Law Firm Launches with Michele Correnti

    In this episode, Stephen Seckler speaks with Michele Correnti about branding, websites, LinkedIn, content marketing, and how AI is changing the way law firms market themselves. They discuss  what lawyers should do before and after launching a solo or small firm to build visibility, attract the right clients, and stay top of mind with referral sources. Michele Correnti, founder and CEO of Correnti Marketing, shares practical advice drawn from years of working with law firms and other professional service businesses. If you're thinking about launching a practice or rethinking your firm's online presence, this conversation is packed with tactical guidance. Key Takeaways Branding is more than a logo. Start marketing before launch day. Specificity attracts better clients. Niches can expand opportunity. Personal branding matters. LinkedIn should be used strategically. Websites should reflect the real audience. AI is a tool, not a replacement. Timestamps 00:00 - Why legal marketing matters after launching a firm 00:48 - Why potential clients won't find you automatically 01:16 - Michele Correnti's background in professional services marketing 03:43 - Photography, headshots, and visual branding 05:15 - What to do six months before leaving a firm 07:50 - Why your brand is really your reputation 09:16 - Using an ideal client to sharpen your message 16:04 - Personal LinkedIn profiles versus company pages 19:15 - How AI is changing SEO and search visibility 23:00 - Common online presence mistakes lawyers make 27:09 - Launching a firm as a coordinated campaign 32:58 - Where AI helps and where the human voice still matters 37:17 - The risks and opportunities of AI-generated images 40:47 - Three marketing priorities for the first 90 days

  7. 26 Jul

    Thinking About Starting Your Own Law Firm? Avoid These Ethical Mistakes (With Mike Rossi)

    Starting your own law firm can be one of the most exciting and rewarding career moves a lawyer can make. But amid the excitement of choosing a name, finding clients, and building a practice, it's easy to overlook ethical and operational issues that can create problems down the road. In this episode, Steve Seckler speaks with Mike Rossi, a partner at the law firm Conn Kavanaugh in Boston. Mike focuses on professional liability, business litigation, and advising lawyers and law firms on professional responsibility and risk management. Together, they walk through the ethical and practical issues lawyers should think about when starting a new practice, especially the decisions that need to be made before a firm opens its doors. The conversation begins with the obligations lawyers have when leaving a firm, including how to notify clients appropriately and why client choice matters. Mike explains the importance of handling departures harmoniously, avoiding premature client outreach, and understanding the fiduciary duties involved in a transition. The episode explores marketing and business development and operational issues. Mike and Steve also discuss supervision responsibilities, the ethical use of AI tools, co-counsel arrangements, referral disclosures, and the risks that can arise when lawyers take on unfamiliar matters too quickly. This episode is a reminder that a little prevention early on can save a lot of trouble later. Key Takeaways Leaving a firm starts with your obligations to the firm and your clients, not your new business plan. Clients ultimately choose where their matters go, and a joint communication is the safest way to notify them. Legal tech competence is part of modern professional competence, so your systems should be ready on day one. IOLTA and trust accounting are high-risk areas for new solos and deserve careful setup before taking client funds. Marketing must avoid false or misleading claims, especially around results, specialization, and expertise. AI, supervision, and conflict checks all require active oversight; "set it and forget it" creates risk. Key Topics Ethical obligations when leaving a law firm and managing client relationships How to navigate conflicts of interest, client notifications, and joint communications Essential technology and systems for risk management, including trust accounts and practice management tools Marketing and advertising rules: do's and don'ts for building your brand online The role of AI and emerging technologies in legal practice and supervision responsibilities Best practices for growth: supervision, hiring, and managing non-lawyer participation Preparing for launch: conflict checks, IOLTA setup, and ethical pitfalls to avoid Timestamps 00:40 - Responsibilities of law firm owners beyond client acquisition 01:37 - Ethical challenges: client intake, conflicts, and engagement letters 05:24 - ABA guidance on leaving a firm and client transition rules 06:16 - Client autonomy in choosing where matters go 12:08 - Ethical duty of technological competence and practice management tools 13:48 - Trust accounting: setting up compliant IOLTA accounts 16:13 - Advertising and online marketing rules 28:44 - Using AI tools responsibly and supervising outputs

  8. 11 Jul

    Episode 179: Beyond Law Firms: Careers in Law Schools and Nonprofits

    Many lawyers assume their career options begin and end with practicing law. In this episode, Steve speaks with Tony Waller, a lawyer, educator, former nonprofit CEO, and career development leader whose career demonstrates the many ways a legal education can lead to meaningful and rewarding work. Tony discusses his journey from private practice to recruiting, law school career services, nonprofit leadership, and higher education administration. Along the way, he shares practical advice for lawyers and law students who are considering career transitions, searching for more meaningful work, or wondering how to leverage their legal skills outside of traditional practice. Whether you're happy practicing law or considering a different path, this conversation will broaden your perspective on what a successful legal career can look like. Key Takeaways Your legal skills are highly transferable and can create opportunities well beyond traditional legal practice. Career transitions are most successful when they're intentional rather than reactions to temporary dissatisfaction. Lawyers need to become comfortable identifying and communicating the value they bring to employers and clients. Law schools offer rewarding career paths in career development, student affairs, advancement, and administration. Volunteer leadership and nonprofit board service can expand your network while developing valuable leadership skills. Strong professional relationships often lead to career opportunities before positions are ever publicly posted. Before making a career change, identify exactly what is making you unhappy so you don't repeat the same mistakes. Career success isn't a race—focus on continuous growth rather than comparing your timeline to others. Timestamps 00:00 Introduction and Tony Waller's unconventional legal career 04:05 Why Tony left legal practice and the transferable skills lawyers possess 12:05 Career opportunities for lawyers in law school administration 15:20 Transitioning into nonprofit leadership and serving as a CEO 20:30 Networking, relationship building, and the hidden job market 22:45 How legal career development has changed over the past two decades 25:00 Advice for lawyers considering a career transition 29:45 Final career advice and Tony's recommendation for the TV series Shrinking Connect with Tony Waller Tony Waller University of Georgia School of Law Email: twaller@uga.edu Connect with Steve Seckler To schedule a free 30-minute consultation or access free career, leadership, and business development resources for lawyers, visit www.seckler.com. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe, leave a review, and share it with a colleague who may be exploring new career possibilities.

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About

Counsel to Counsel is a periodic podcast produced by Stephen Seckler of Seckler Attorney Coaching (www.seckler.com). It addresses important career, marketing, and leadership issues facing attorneys. The target audience is associates, counsel and partners at law firms of all sizes; but the podcast also addresses issues that are relevant to in-house counsel, law students or any lawyer who is looking for career insights inside or outside of the law. Counsel to Counsel is aimed at individual lawyers who are looking to increase their own career satisfaction and build their marketing and leadership skills. The podcast features interviews with leading consultants, career professionals and marketing experts who advise attorneys on careers, marketing, law firm management and related issues. The guests are also a roster of successful attorneys who have found career satisfaction inside and outside the law. Counsel to Counsel is a direct outgrowth of the blog Counsel to Counsel which Stephen Seckler has been publishing since 2005. Since graduating from law school in the late 1980s, Stephen Seckler has been advising lawyers on career and marketing issues and working with a broad mix of law firms and corporate law departments. He began blogging when legal blogging was in its infancy and his blog Counsel to Counsel was named to the ABA Journal's Blawg 100 in 2007 and 2008 (the first two years that list was in existence). Steve has written extensively on career and marketing issues and he has spoken at many law school, law firm and bar association events. He served on the Boston Bar Association's Standing Committee on Work Life Balance and was Vice Chair of the Law Practice Management Section of the Massachusetts Bar Association. He is active in the, the ProVisors business network, sits on the Career Center Board of the American Bar Association, and on the editorial boards of the ABA publications GPSolo and GPSolo eReport. He has been quoted frequently in the legal and business press. Since 2021, he has been named a top coach in the Massachusetts Lawyers Weekly Reader Rankings Awards (#1 or #2 for Business Development Coach, Lawyer Outplacement Service, and Executive Coaching). He is the author of Think Like a Lawyer, Act Like an Entrepreneur (American Bar Association, 2025).

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