Grey Matters with Leah Mermelstein

GreyMatters

I started this podcast because I've spent years chasing the same question: what actually makes a practice best for learners? The honest answer I keep arriving at? It depends. But that answer isn't a dodge. It's the beginning of the real conversation. I'm Leah Mermelstein — a literacy consultant, coach and author of several books on the teaching of literacy. I work directly with students, teachers, schools, and districts. And the question I keep returning to isn't just what should teachers do differently in their classrooms. It's what does it actually take to change a system — to shift the conditions inside schools and districts so that real learning becomes possible for every child. That question belongs to everyone in the building. Teachers. Coaches. Consultants. Principals. Superintendents. Curriculum directors. Anyone who has ever sat with the gap between what they know works and what the system actually makes possible. Grey Matters is for those people. Each season I invite guests who are genuinely still inside their own questions — willing to be in the uncertainty with me and to keep going after the recording stops. We don't resolve the hard questions here. We stay in them long enough to understand them better. Teaching and learning don't live at the extremes. They live in the grey. That's why this podcast is called Grey Matters.

  1. 3 days ago

    Thirty Years, Same Cycle: Teaching in the Gray with Dana Palubiak

    Thirty years in the classroom. Four literacy reforms. One line that stopped a lot of people in their tracks. If the words "Lucy Calkins" weren't attached to Dana Palubiak's teaching, a lot of people would call it a textbook example of the science of reading. That's the moment this episode turns on. Dana taught for thirty years — through the Basal Reader, guided reading, Fountas & Pinnell, Units of Study, and the arrival of the science of reading — and watched the same cycle happen again and again: a new resource gets adopted, gets called the solution, and a few years later gets called a mistake. Her answer to why isn't "pick a side." It's sharper than that: programs don't teach kids — teachers teach children. In this conversation, Dana and I get into: Why she doesn't believe a single one of her thirty years of reforms was a mistake — and what she thinks each one actually gave herThe moment she went back into a first-grade classroom as a long-term sub and realized kids were being taught below their actual reading level, script in handHer "Dictionary Project" — tracking how words like curiosity, judgment, and wisdom have quietly been replaced in education by data, accountability, and fidelityWhat she thinks systems actually owe teachers, if we want any resource — any resource — to workThis isn't a defense of Lucy Calkins. It isn't an argument for the science of reading either. It's what thirty years inside a classroom actually looks like when nobody's trying to win an argument. 📎 Dana's original Education Week piece 📎 The facebook thread that started this conversation  📎My follow-up piece, "One Reality Isn't Enough" — still my most-read piece to date 📎 Ways to connect with Dana directly Substack: @DanaPalubiak X: @DanaPalubiak Email: danapalubiak@yahoo.com 🎧 Listen wherever you get your podcasts. Stay comfortable in the grey. For questions and thoughts about the podcast: greymatters26@gmail.com Ways to get in touch with Leah: FacebookLinkedInInstagramSubstack

  2. 4 Oct

    Kids Are the Point. So Are the Teachers

    What if "kids are the point" isn't enough on its own — and "teachers are the point" isn't either? This week, I'm living with a line from my conversation with Kata Solow: the curriculum isn't the point, the kids are the point, and the teachers are the point, because helping kids means helping teachers first, and at the same time. I thought I already believed this. Turns out I'd been living one half of it for years without giving the other half the same attention. This episode also picks up something left hanging from my last solo episode — Zaretta's correction that curriculum and instruction are two different things — and asks a harder question underneath it: does meta-strategic thinking have to stay invisible, or can it be normalized right into the way a curriculum document is written? What we cover: The two kinds of dismissal hiding inside "kids are the point" and "teachers are the point" — one loud, one much quieterRobert Pondiscio's case for done-for-you curriculum, and my colleague Marcus's case for the opposite — and why they're both right, for different teachersWhat "right-sizing" a curriculum document, not just instruction, actually looks likeAn inside look at a real district curriculum-and-coaching partnership I'm building this year, from the research phase through year-long classroom coachingA concrete call to action for system leaders: naming which kind of teacher is in front of you, and right-sizing your response to that person, not a blanket policyReferenced in this episode: Kata Solow's guest episode — Grey MattersZaretta Hammond's guest episode — Episode 13 of Grey MattersRobert Pondiscio, "The 'Case for Curriculum' Is about Reducing Teachers' Workload" — Fordham InstituteMarcus, "Why I Love Designing Unit Plans" — The Broken Copier (Substack)Schoolutions, "Bending the Curriculum," with Olivia WahlConnect with me: Ways to get in touch with Leah: FacebookLinkedInSubstack10 Essentials Writing CohortWebsiteExplore a partnership www.leahmermelstein.com

  3. 28 Sept

    The Curriculum Isn't the Point: Teaching in the Grey with Kata Solow

    This week, Kata Solow, Executive Director of the Goyen Foundation, joins me. Kata has spent her career studying why reform movements — even well-researched ones — can look promising on paper and still fall short once they meet a real school district. Her recent piece responding to Liana Loewus's Education Next article on over-teaching phonics didn't take a side. Instead, she named what the field still doesn't know — and what it needs to ask instead. We talk about the uncertainty at the heart of the science of reading movement, the difference between right-sizing instruction and removing professional judgment altogether, and what keeps "the conversation" from becoming a stalling tactic. She also hands me one of my favorite lines of the season: "The curriculum is not the point. The kids are." What we cover: Why the direction on explicit, systematic phonics instruction is clear — but the dosage questions (how much, how long, which grades) aren'tWhy naming this uncertainty out loud provoked outrage — and why that fear can be both legitimate and dangerous"Right-sizing" phonics to the students in front of you, and the professional judgment that asks forWhat separates real instructional dialogue from "let's keep talking" as a stalling tacticWhat Kata wants a superintendent mid-adoption — or a teacher inside an imperfect system — to hold ontoReferenced in this episode: Liana Loewus, "The Cost of Over-Teaching Phonics" — Education NextKata Solow, "11 Thoughts on the Over-Teaching of Phonics" — Science of Reading Classroom (Substack)Lester Laminack's Ferris Wheel pieceConnect with Kata: Science of Reading ClassroomGoyen FoundationConnect with Leah FacebookLinkedInSubstack10 Essentials Writing CohortWebsiteExplore a partnershipIf something from this episode is sitting with you, I want to hear it. If you found this useful, share it with a colleague and leave a review — Until next time, stay in the grey.

  4. 20 Sept

    The First Pancake

    What if the fastest way to make real, lasting change — with one person, or an entire district — is to move slower, not faster, even when everything in you says there's no time for that? This week, I'm living with a phrase from my conversation with Zaretta Hammond: slow down to go fast. And I'm doing it through one small, honest story — a wobbly week in my own house, months before Zaretta ever gave me the language for what actually happened in it. This isn't a new discovery for me. I've told teachers and districts for years that sustainable change takes time. This episode is me testing whether I actually live that under pressure, or just say it — and using one real story to make Zaretta's densest ideas (the first pancake, meta-strategic thinking, the learning pit) as clear as I can. What we cover: Why the wobble — the "first pancake" — is the point of real change, not evidence something's brokenPedagogy of compliance vs. pedagogy of possibility, tested inside my own familyWhat meta-strategic thinking actually looks like when a learner builds it herself, before anyone hands her the words for it"Portable" learning — why it matters more than a task getting doneWhat I'm testing in a brand-new year-long district coaching partnership: expecting the wobble instead of getting surprised by itThe honest reckoning — do any of us actually hold to "change takes time" under real pressure, or only on the days it happens to work out?Referenced in this episode: Zaretta Hammond's guest episode — Episode 13 of Grey MattersThe Learning Pit: James NottinghamLearning That Transfers: Julie Stern, Krista Ferraro, Kayla Duncan and Trevor Aleo Ways to get in touch with Leah: FacebookLinkedInSubstack10 Essentials Writing CohortWebsiteExplore a partnership

  5. 13 Sept

    Slow Down to Go Fast: Teaching in the Grey with Zaretta Hammond

    What if the most "orderly" classroom in your building is quietly failing the students you most want to reach? Season 2 opens with Zaretta Hammond — teacher educator, consultant, and author of books that have changed how a generation of educators think about equity, cognition, and instruction. Her newest book, Rebuilding Students' Learning Power, is the ground we stand on today: how do we build the cognitive capacity of every student, especially the ones systems have historically underestimated? There's a phrase in the book I haven't put down since: the pedagogy of compliance — the idea that some of what we've accepted as "exemplar" classroom management might actually be quietly underdeveloping the very students we most want to reach. I brought Zaretta a real, unresolved question of my own: early in my career, I walked into a chaotic classroom, panicked, and tightened into compliance. She didn't just diagnose what went wrong. She gave me a way out that doesn't swing back to chaos: slow down to go fast. What we cover: Pedagogy of compliance vs. pedagogy of possibility, and why systems default to the first even when they say they want the secondWhy "chaos" is usually a sign of a bored brain, not a discipline problemSlow down to go fast: why piloting change with 25–30 teachers beats rolling it out to everyone at onceInstructional leadership vs. management, and why walkthrough checklists can't tell you if learning is happeningOver-scaffolding as a hidden equity trapThe learning pit — why teachers and systems move through discomfort to grow, not just studentsThe "invisible curriculum": why teaching kids how to learn matters as much as what they learnReferenced in this episode: Zaretta Hammond Rebuilding Student's Learning PowerZaretta Hammond, Culturally Responsive Teaching and the BrainThe Learning Pit: James NottinghamLearning That Transfers: Julie Stern, Krista Ferraro, Kayla Duncan and Trevor AleoConnect with Zaretta: Linkedin Facebook  Website Connect with me: www.leahmermelstein.com If something here is sitting with you, I want to hear it. Share it with a colleague and leave a review — it's how more people find this show. Until next time — stay comfortable in the grey.

  6. 25 May

    The Grey Space Within: Shame, Agency, and How We Grow as Educators

    Leah and Angela reunite for the season finale to debrief episodes 9–11 and weave together the month's biggest ideas. They reflect on Stella Villalba's concept of kid watching, Angela's solo episode on self-observation, and Leah's episode on seeing others more fully — and find a surprising thread connecting all three: the discomfort and richness of not knowing what you'll find when you slow down and look honestly. What we explore in this episodeKid watching as a gray space Stella's words about kid watching are powerful precisely because they are unpredictable — and how that same messiness applies when we turn observation inward on ourselves. Shame and the reading wars How urgency to close research gaps has sometimes shamed educators who dedicated careers to doing their best — and why calling people out rarely creates the change we're hoping for. Context, capitalism, and guru culture A candid conversation about money, professional pedestals, and why research divorced from human context isn't as useful as it sounds. Teachers have more power than they think Leah shares a formative lesson from professor Sonia Nieto — and both hosts reflect on what it means to gather your own evidence, act without waiting for permission, and trust your classroom as a data source. A season goodbye from Angela Angela shares that she'll be stepping back as co-host, and both Leah and Angela reflect on what this first season has taught them about learning in public. Referenced in this episodeEpisode 9 — Guest: Stella Villalba on kid watchingEpisode 10 — Angela's solo reflection on self-observationEpisode 11 — Leah's episode on seeing others more fullyKelly Cartwright's active view of readingSonia Nieto, educator and authorOlivia Wall, podcast mentor Grey Matters returns in September with Season 2. Until then — stay comfortable being in the gray. For questions and thoughts about the podcast: greymatters26@gmail.com Ways to get in touch with Angela: WebsiteFacebookLinkedInInstagramSubstackWays to get in touch with Leah: FacebookLinkedInInstagramSubstack

About

I started this podcast because I've spent years chasing the same question: what actually makes a practice best for learners? The honest answer I keep arriving at? It depends. But that answer isn't a dodge. It's the beginning of the real conversation. I'm Leah Mermelstein — a literacy consultant, coach and author of several books on the teaching of literacy. I work directly with students, teachers, schools, and districts. And the question I keep returning to isn't just what should teachers do differently in their classrooms. It's what does it actually take to change a system — to shift the conditions inside schools and districts so that real learning becomes possible for every child. That question belongs to everyone in the building. Teachers. Coaches. Consultants. Principals. Superintendents. Curriculum directors. Anyone who has ever sat with the gap between what they know works and what the system actually makes possible. Grey Matters is for those people. Each season I invite guests who are genuinely still inside their own questions — willing to be in the uncertainty with me and to keep going after the recording stops. We don't resolve the hard questions here. We stay in them long enough to understand them better. Teaching and learning don't live at the extremes. They live in the grey. That's why this podcast is called Grey Matters.

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