Drs. Corey Campbell and Abhishek Parmar talk about leadership in surgery through the lens of operating room culture, training, and decision-making under pressure. They unpack how surgical leadership differs from management, why clear expectations matter, and how calm, safety-focused communication can shape better outcomes for teams and patients. In this episode, Corey and Abhishek also break down what makes a good OR leader, compare leadership styles, and use real-world examples from aviation, sports, and surgery to show how leaders perform when things go wrong. Key topics We discuss why surgeons are often leaders by default when they enter the operating room, even if they do not think of themselves that way.Corey draws a distinction between leadership and management, arguing that leadership is vision and direction, while management is the technical work of getting people and systems aligned.The conversation explores how toxic teaching can still produce technical skill, but often at the cost of trust, morale, and team performance.Corey describes how better surgical management means setting clear expectations for residents, med students, nurses, and anesthesiology teams before the case starts.Abhishek shares how his approach has shifted toward creating a culture of safety, calm, and predictability so everyone in the room feels comfortable contributing.They use Captain Tammy Joe Schultz and the Southwest Airlines emergency as an example of calm leadership under extreme pressure.They discuss whether yelling in the OR is ever appropriate, settling on the idea that context matters, but personal attacks and humiliation are destructive. Timestamps 00:00 - Cold open 03:01 - Why leadership in surgery is worth talking about 04:09 - Does being a surgeon make you a better leader or a worse one? 05:05 - The “dark side” model of surgical training and anger as fuel 06:53 - Why leadership and management are not the same thing 07:22 - What real management looks like in surgery 09:30 - Abhishek’s early leadership style and why residents said they wanted him “less like Parmar” 11:30 - CEO versus COO: vision versus operations 13:14 - How teams align around a shared vision for a successful operation 14:45 - Examples of excellent OR leadership 15:05 - Building a culture of safety in an intimidating environment 16:37 - Type A versus type B leadership styles in surgery 18:28 - The tradeoffs of being highly meticulous versus relationally trusted 21:06 - Adam Galinsky’s Inspire and the psychology of leadership 22:02 - The Southwest flight emergency and Tammy Joe Schultz’s calm under pressure 23:58 - Visionary, exemplary, mentor: what strong leaders actually do 26:36 - The Costa Concordia captain as the opposite of leadership 29:52 - How surgical leadership changes when things stop going according to plan 31:25 - Why surgery tests leadership more often than routine pilot work 33:00 - Why the pilot analogy breaks down for surgeons 34:49 - Is authoritarian leadership ever appropriate in surgery? 35:05 - Is yelling in the OR ever okay? 37:08 - Parenting, pilots, and why calm communication matters in vulnerable moments 39:49 - When stress, stakes, and incompetence trigger emotion in the OR 41:21 - Nick Saban, Brian Kelly, and what actually makes a great coach or leader 45:07 - Rapid fire: are leaders born or made? 52:48 - Closing jokes and sign-off Connect with the Hosts: Abhishek Parmar - LinkedInDouglas Corey Campbell - X
