Into The Grey Zone Sky News

In this final episode, we have the first ever interview with serving MI5 officers who work in counter intelligence.

Tom and Kate talk about the challenge of grey zone threats from Russia and reveal their shock at the Salisbury spy poisonings.

They also reveal that the Security Service has bolstered protection for people in the UK deemed at risk from Russia and is doing “everything we can” to prevent another Salisbury-style attack, but there are no “absolute guarantees” – in the grey zone.

Guests:
Tom, senior MI5 intelligence officer working on Russia
Kate, MI5 intelligence officer investigating the activities of Russia’s military intelligence agency, the GRU
Lord Mark Sedwill, former UK national security adviser
Dominic Grieve, former senior Conservative MP, former chair of Parliament’s Intelligence and Security Committee, former attorney general

Credits:
Written and narrated by Deborah Haynes
Edited and produced by Chris Scott
Production support from Sophia McBide and Michael Greenfield
The Head of Sky News Radio is Dave Terris

What happens when the grey zone becomes a war zone and what might future wars look like, with hypersonic missiles, artificial intelligence and cyber changing calculations?

These are questions Sky News journalist Deborah Haynes explores in this episode, in part, by looking at Russia’s annexation of Crimea and the conflict in eastern Ukraine.

She also talks to General Sir Nick Carter, the head of Britain’s armed forces, about what he thinks is the gravest threat to the UK and about how the military is adapting to operate in the grey zone.

Guests:
General Sir Nick Carter, Chief of the Defence Staff
General Sir Richard Barrons, former head of Joint Command, now Strategic Command
Emine Dzhaparova , First Deputy Foreign Minister of Ukraine
Sergei Markov, political scientist and former member of the Russian parliament
Keir Giles, senior consulting fellow at Chatham House
Orysia Lutsevych, head and research fellow, Ukraine Forum, Russia and Eurasia Programme, Chatham House

Credits:
Written and narrated by Deborah Haynes
Edited and produced by Chris Scott
Production support from Sophia McBide and Michael Greenfield
The Head of Sky News Radio is Dave Terris

This episode explores a global battle of values between China and leading democracies over issues like Hong Kong, Taiwan and Xinjiang.

It’s being fought with an array of covert weapons, from cyber attacks and information operations to economic coercion and even something called “lawfare”.

Allegations of such behaviour are made and denied by both sides, which of course is to be expected - in the grey zone.

Guests:
Tom Tugendhat, Conservative MP, chair of the Foreign Affairs Committee
Matthew Turpin, visiting fellow, Hoover Institution
Charlie Parton, former British diplomat, senior fellow at the Royal United Services Institute
Dr Shi Yinhong, Director of the Academic Committee of the School of International Studies and US Research Center of Renmin University in Beijing
Nathan Law, pro-democracy activist from Hong Kong
Julie Marionneau, research fellow, Policy Exchange
Freddy Lim, Taiwanese politician, lead singer of heavy-metal band Chthonic
Alexander Downer, former Australian foreign minister
Puma Shen, assistant professor at National Taipei University
Chinese embassy in London – via email statement

Credits:
Written and narrated by Deborah Haynes
Edited and produced by Chris Scott
Production support from Michael Greenfield
The head of Sky News Radio is Dave Terris

On 3 January 2020, the United States killed Iran’s top spy master, Major General Qasem Soleimani, in a drone strike in Iraq.

There was nothing grey or ambiguous about the assassination, but this episode explores the escalating grey zone hostilities between Iran and the United States in the preceding years and how they almost ignited a real war.

Sky News journalist Deborah Haynes explores in particular how Iran allegedly uses proxy forces in the grey zone, under the threshold of war, to try to level the playing field when competing with a super power.

Interviews:
General David Petraeus, former director of the Central Intelligence Agency
John Raine, Senior Adviser for Geopolitical Due Diligence, International Institute for Strategic Studies
Anne-Marie Trevelyan, Conservative MP and former UK defence minister. She now serves as energy minister
Fabian Picardo, Chief Minister of Gibraltar
Anonymous Iraqi MP
Seyed Mohammad Marandi, Professor of English Literature and Orientalism, University of Tehran
Major General Amos Yadlin, a former chief of Israel’s Military Intelligence Directorate

Credits:
Written and narrated by Deborah Haynes
Edited and produced by Chris Scott
Production support from Michael Greenfield
The head of Sky News Radio is Dave Terris

In their first joint interview, the director of the UK spy agency GCHQ and the top general in charge of cyber operations for the military talk about how the UK is using the power of cyber to push back against adversaries with the creation of a whole new National Cyber Force.

Jeremy Fleming and General Sir Patrick Sanders also reveal new details about how the UK used offensive cyber in the fight against Islamic State, attacking the terrorist group’s ability to fly drones, use their mobile phones and spread online propaganda.

We also hear from a woman who was once described as the UK’s best offensive cyber spy.

Sally Walker has since left GCHQ and says she is choosing to speak out – now she’s once again a member of the public – to help generate a wider debate about the cyber grey zone.

Interviews:
Jeremy Fleming, director of GCHQ
General Sir Patrick Sanders, commander of Strategic Command
Sally Walker, cyber expert
Tobias Elwood, Conservative MP, chair of the defence select committee and former foreign officer and defence minister

Credits:
Written and narrated by Deborah Haynes
Edited and produced by Chris Scott
Production support from Michael Greenfield
The head of Sky News Radio is Dave Terris

States, criminals and terrorists all use cyber to attack each other in the grey zone. It puts anyone with a computer in the firing line, but also means that anyone who understands computers has the ability to fight back.

This episode explores a range of cyber threats from espionage up to attacks that cause physical harm, such as by targeting hospitals or electricity supplies.

Sky News journalist Deborah Haynes also speaks to a young computer expert called Marcus Hutchins who helped to stop one of the worst known cyber attacks to hit the UK.

The National Health Service was one of the main victims of the May 2017 WannaCry attack, blamed on North Korea. Pyongyang has denied involvement.

Interviews:
Ciaran Martin, former chief executive of the National Cyber Security Centre
Paul Chichester, director of operations at the National Cyber Security Centre
Marietje Schaake, international director of policy at Stanford’s Cyber Policy Centre
Harold Thimbleby, professor of computer science at Swansea University
Marcus Hutchins, computer security expert

Credits:
Written and narrated by Deborah Haynes
Edited and produced by Chris Scott
Production support from Sophia McBride and Michael Greenfield
The head of Sky News Radio is Dave Terris