Meta-Perspective

Matt & Andy

An unfolding dialogue exploring how to think, act and be in a complex and uncertain world.

  1. EPISODE 1

    A Moment Unfolding | Episode 1

    This conversation was recorded on September 11th 2020 where this journey begins. The genesis of this show began with Matt & Andy wanting to figure out what underlies our current moment and explore it together. We start there. Dive into this episode and see what emerges. Timestamps Black swan, covid and the rise of technology (03:16)Stepping off the hamster wheel to find meaning (6:50)Why we should dig into specific topics like remote work (11:55)Living in a world of rapidly increasing uncertainty (16:15)Understanding your place in the arc of history (21:49)The agent and the arena (25:51)The unintended, unforeseen consequences of technology (34:17) Centralisation vs decentralisation in a complex adaptive world (43:46)Industrial worldview, information age and philosophical perspectives (47:56)Epistemic humility and the dialectic (56:29)Transforming information to knowledge to wisdom (01:02:56)Beauty, re-enchantment and wonder (01:09:02)Concluding with emergence (01:15:50)Contact  metaperspective.iohello@metaperspective.io

    1h 20m

  2. EPISODE 2

    The Agent and Arena | Episode 2

    Following on from Episode 1, we take a theme that emerged from our first conversation and explore it more deeply. This time it's the intricate connections between the individual and the world in which that individual is placed. The concept of agent and arena we first came across through the work of John Vervaeke, Professor of Psychology & Cognitive Science at the University of Toronto - you can find a link to his excellent YouTube series below. Date RecordedOct 20th 2020 Timestamps  Defining the agent and the arena (03:14)The problem of internal vs external factors in agency (05:58)The blank slate and the agent/arena dichotomy in politics (07:43)Enabling the expression of the individual (10:32)Dynamic coupling of the agent and institutions in the arena (12:34)The Social Dilemma and awareness of the technological arena (14:40)Business models that corrupt our information sources (17:10)Psychologically handling the polluted information ecology (20:48)The importance of storytelling in the arena (25:43)Economics and politics in service of value (30:44)Legacies of the industrial age (34:40)The call to self-authoring your life (39:52)Re-evaluation and emerging opportunities in the arena (42:22)Know thyself, raising real self-esteem (45:12)Autonomous agents within the institutions in the arena (47:29)The beginnings of a paradigm shift? (50:20)Safety nets vs trampolines (56:46)The role of the arena and human potentiality (58:55)The role of emerging technology in the arena (01:03:46)Upgrading machines that have been downgrading humans (01:06:20)Encoding the shadow and the reciprocal nature of technology and the arena (01:08:52)A practical example of dynamic coupling (01:11:44)Agentic disconnect to the modern arena (01:13:09)Questioning modernity (1:15:01)Why having these kind of conversations is so important (01:20:23)Questions to ponder over Are we struggling to couple to our arena effectively? In what ways is the arena shaping and influencing you that you might not have previously been aware of?If a rapidly changing world requires more agency, what does it mean to become more self-authoring of our own lives? What might that look like?Links to explore  John Vervaeke - Awakening from the Meaning Crisis - The Agent and Arena comes up in Episode 7 ~30min Nathaniel Branden - Six Pillars of Self-Esteem Tristan Harris - Center for humane technology Daniel Schmachtenberger - The War on SensemakingBoyat Slat William B. Irvine - A Guide to the Good Life - a good primer on StoicismAbove the clouds scene from the MatrixContact  Metaperspective.iohello@metaperspective.io

    1h 28m

  3. EPISODE 3

    Legacy Mindsets | Episode 3

    Building from Episode 2's exploration into the Agent and Arena relationship. This time round we focus in on the Arena looking at the forces that have influenced and continue to influence it today. It's useful to think of this episode and having two parts to it that are connected by the theme - legacy mindsets - the ways of thinking and perceiving the world that we carry with us from the past.  Date recordedOct 29th 2020Timestamps Part 1  Previous episode recap (02:27)Why play a role in the arena? (06:44)Extracting ourselves out of our previous arenas (10:05)The consequences of the industrial arena (12:19)Metricization, education and Tolkein’s mythology (22:47)The education system and industrial thinking (26:29) Preparing for a radically different world (31:54)Imagination, the mechanisation of war and the importance of storytelling (35:01)Unintended consequences of the arena and the importance of play in learning (40:03)Play, imagination and creativity and their importance in the emerging arena (43:58)Part 2  The evolution of the industrial arena (48:56) Automation, meaning in work and why metricisation has been so effective (53:51) The tyranny of metrics, the sclerosis of bureaucracy (56:47)The end game of metrics. Moving towards values as organising principles (01:05:38)Industrial thinking vs holding a multi-perspectival view during COVID (01:16:59)Sensing and responding to change (01:21:31)Anti-fragility and moving beyond event-based transactions (01:24:05)The current institutional framing for seeing agents (01:29:21)Autonomy, sovereignty and participation (01:32:55)Questions to ask ourselves from the conversation (01:36:36)Question to ponder over What are some of the other ways of thinking and perceiving the world that we carry with us from the past that shape our world today?Links to explore  JRR TOLKIEN '1892-1973' - A Study Of The Maker Of Middle-earth - (20:32-24:24 is specifically what we discussed on the show. But I recommend starting from 08:30 if you have more time on your hands) Jean Piaget - Play as developmentFriedrick Hayek - Market theory John Maynard Keynes and the future of work  James Kerr - Legacy - this book's all about the good kind of legacy, things worth passing on generationally for the New Zealand All Blacks. Colin Price - Beyond Performance  Adam Smith - The Wealth of NationsAdam Smith - Theory of Modern Sentiments  Contact  Metaperspective.iohello@metaperspective.io

    1h 43m

  4. EPISODE 4

    Sense of Self | Episode 4

    Knowing ourselves is a key component of navigating complexity and uncertainty. In this episode we dive into the psychological aspects of being in an ever shifting, rapidly changing world and the effects that has on us and on our sense of self.  Date RecordedNov 12th 2020 Timestamps Alienation and the good life (3:58)Hume’s is/ought distinction, human needs and values (8:11)Using mechanical and informational metaphors in sense-making (12:07)Sense-making coupled to our environment and interior lives (15:21)Barfield, original participation and the categorisation of reality (22:44)Identity and atomisation in large complex societies (26:28)Human brain tuning into context it finds itself in (29:49)Dynamic coupling and maladaption in the arena (31:32)Intergenerational technological experiences (35:12)Disconnect from the digital arena - Giving up a smartphone for 30 days (39:59)Attention, AI, Limbic system (43:14)Self-knowledge and identity through hardship (47:56) Tempering our swords, forest fires and internal validation (56:21) Nurturing your inner self, order, chaos, complexity and overwhelm (59:11) Using informational metaphors for navigating the new arena (01:05:21)The consequences of the collective action of multiple institutions (01:08:51)Machine learning and AI as part of the Information age (01:11:54)Importance of individual participation in the arena (01:17:13)Digital market forces and the infrastructure of the commons (01:19:03)Decentralisation as a fail safe (01:21:58)Could there be a new model for the informational commons? (01:24:05)Recursive AI, institutional philosophy and discovering our values (01:25:58)The plurality of ideas and participation (01:29:19)The golden rule and foundational principles of the human condition (01:32:17)The relay race of humanity (01:35:13)Questions to ponder over What are some of the things in our lives that we might be maladapting to? Are we looking externally for identity and validation rather than cultivating within us a rich inner life?Are we struggling to see ourselves in the things that we’re building around us? Do we need to become more aware of what it takes to live well in order to not find ourselves living lives shaped by the interests of increasingly sophisticated forces operating in the arenas we inhabit?Links to explore Hume is/ought distinctionOwen Barfield and Knowledge, Poetry & Consciousness  StoicismFrederick Nietzsche and gazing into the abyss Maslow's hierarchy of needsPersonal sovereigntyJordan Peterson - Clean your roomContact  Metaperspective.iohello@metaperspective.io

    1h 40m

  5. EPISODE 5

    Sense-making | Episode 5

    From the utility and limitations of metaphors to an approach for building empathy in the interactions we have with others, sense-making plays a key role in how we participate in the world around us. Dive in to the episode to see how the conversation unfolds.  Date of RecordingNovember 26th 2020  Timestamps Summary of last episode - intro to machine and informational metaphor (02:11)Why metaphors are useful but insufficient (05:23)The flip side of using informational metaphors (12:04) The ineffable lived experience of culture (14:23)The danger of applying the mechanical or software lens too tightly (17:21) The informational driven patterns and human experience (19:24)Tool invention to sense-making (22:06)The decoupling of innovation and human experience (25:01)The blank slate fallacy (29:23)Rejecting the narrative (33:27)Psychological triggers and Forrest Landry’s three levels of perception (35:26)Building Sovereignty (42:16)Jungian sub-personalities and social media (44:13)Sub-personalities and the polluted information ecology (51:17) Reframing personal relationships as a pathway to empathy and crossing divides (52:49)Finding the signal in the noise (01:00:19)Collapsing into worldviews, sense-making and bridge building (01:02:00)Holding and seeking value in multiple perspectives (01:12:17)The psychology of anxiety in uncertainty (01:15:08)Stepping into the undefined and navigating the unknown as agents (01:21:30)The new metaphors - the surfer (01:23:07)Takeaways and questions to ask ourselves (01:27:38)Questions to ponder over What might be some of the other ways of finding signal in the noise in our arenas as we try to navigate them? How might we do that? How might we hold the uncertainty that we need to hold for others and the people around us? How else do we use metaphors to make sense of our world?Links to explore  Forrest Landry - philosophy and metaphysics Roger Scruton - Anthropologist's gaze Jordan Peterson - Lobster hierarchies Sigmund Freud Carl Jung  Sub-personalitiesDaniel Schmachtenberger - The War on Sensemaking Infinity Stones (01:31-03:14)John Vervaeke - Awakening from the Meaning CrisisContact  Metaperspective.iohello@metaperspective.io

    1h 35m

  6. EPISODE 6

    Reinventing Organisations | Episode 6

    In what ways do we participate with others in the arena? In this episode we dive into how we organise ourselves in groups, in the organisational structures that exist in our arena, and how that might be changing over time. Looking at the psychological, structural, and technological aspects of group participation as we try to adapt to the complexity that surrounds us. Date of RecordingOriginal conversation recorded May 11th 2021 Timestamps Series recap after break (01:57)How do we participate in the agent/arena? (04:53)Individual and collective participation (06:41)A walk through ‘Reinventing Organizations’ (10:32)Mapping organisational logic to the evolution of our thinking (18:38)Increasing complexity driving shift in org structures, purpose and hierarchies (25:30)Hierarchy and the technology revolution (33:40)Invoking the idea of purpose, devolving decision making (40:14)How Holacracy works and where it failed (44:18)Self-organising teams & decentralised ways of working (48:53)Biological thinking & distributed decision making (53:25)A top down, bottom up approach away from command and control organisational processes (59:29)The scalability of experimentation (01:06:22)Human first approaches - Quaker Capitalists (01:10:24)The divine spark and systemic economic thinking (01:14:16)Quakers to Crypto -  decentralisation, the frontier of technological innovation (01:21:13)Discernment and the value of competence hierarchies (01:38:05)Questions to ponder over Why is it important to have a sense of purpose on an individual level, on a societal level, on an organisational level? Where does our desire to be a purposeful agent in the world come from? Where does that core drive originate, and what's the driving force behind it? How can a sense of purpose potentially get hijacked by forces in the arena to ends that aren't necessarily beneficial to an agent or the arena?Are hierarchies inevitable when it comes to groups? What role will they play in a rapidly changing arena? How might hierarchies evolve as we distribute decision making to handle the influx of knowledge and information and ever increasing complexity we're faced with?What are the other ways that technology can influence how we participate? How might it augment and expand our ability to make choices and decisions as well as hinder them when we participate with others? Links to explore Reinventing OrganisationsKen Wilber - integral theoryGallup - 85% employees disengaged at workHolacracyZapposMediumHaier BuurtzorgViisi Jobs to be done frameworkWhere boards failThe QuakersBournvilleTataBlockchain, Bitcoin, smart contracts, DAOCRISPR Zero sum gamesRegen Network Contact  Metaperspective.iohello@metaperspective.io

    1h 51m

  7. EPISODE 7

    The Cultural Network | Episode 7

    What is a cultural network? In this episode we dive into how the exponential rise of technology is influencing culture, looking at how it shapes us and how we in turn are shaping it. Date of RecordingOriginal conversation recorded June 1st 2021 Timestamps Last episode recap (01:32)Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance - a portal into the network (03:45)Culture is meaning in action (09:57)Technology accelerating shallowness, disconnection from reality, 50 years on from Zen (12:53) Participation: outside vs inside the world, hyper connectivity to each other overwhelming tribal circuitry (16:28) ‘Newness’, technology and the dissolution of home and belonging (20:28)The paradoxical nature of technology  (23:23)The decline of real-world friendship (26:38)Technology driving the uncoupling of the agent to the arena (29:19)Losing your centre of gravity (sense of self) in the digital world (31:50)Participation & dynamic coupling in cultural network (35:55) Andy in a pre-internet world (41:55) Culture shaping the world in which we inhabit (48:17)Holding multiple perspectives with technology (51:24)Cognition as participatory (01:09:24)Setting up distributed cognition groups (01:20:21)Channel deepening through dialogue  (01:23:24)Wrap up (01:27:49)Outro (01:33:33)Questions to ponder over How do we strengthen ourselves and therefore strengthen the network? How do we participate in that cultural network? How do we make ourselves more agentic, make ourselves more full of self-efficacy and resilience so that when we participate in the arena, we are contributing to that cultural network in a way that edifies it, and doesn't corrupt it?How do we concentrate on what's best rather than what's new? What are the values that help us to orientate ourselves in a world that seems to be continually becoming more and more confusing and complex and difficult to navigate?Links to explore Zen and the Art of Motorcycle MaintenanceRobert M. PirsigAwakening from the Meaning CrisisJohn VervaekeJoseph Campbell's hero monomythZero-sum gamesDaniel SchmachtenbergerHyper objectsContact  Metaperspective.iohello@metaperspective.io

    1h 39m

  8. EPISODE 8

    Imago Dei | Episode 8

    How do we relate to ourselves, each other and the world around us as individuals? In this episode we look at what underpins our understanding of the self by delving into the history, as well as the foundational beliefs and axioms, of Western Civilization. Looking at why we've come to hold a sense of individuality as sacred, and how we have to reconcile that idea with our seemingly inherent capacity to inflict harm and carry out evil.  Date of Recording Original conversation recorded July 2021 Timestamps Last episode recap (02:57)How the sanctity of the individual is manifest in today’s world? (06:44)Is the intrinsic value of the individual self-evident? (12:17)Origins of the sanctity of the individual (16:31)The Greeks - Reason vs fatalism (22:13)The Romans & the ancient role of power (24:27)Christianity and its transformational impact (30:18)​​The universality of the sanctity of the individual (36:31)The transcendental replacing material power for value orientation (40:19)Fatalism to sanctified conscious moral agents (43:43)The unfolding Imago Dei - The relation of the individual to society (45:13)Imago Dei - contexts and caveats (48:02)Divine right of kings and the Magna Carta (50:28)Competing and decentralising power structures, Petition & Bill of Rights (58:27)Human nature and sovereignty: Hobbes, Locke, Rousseau (01:01:18)The French Revolution (01:09:17)The American Revolution (01:12:00)Paradoxes and in-group out-group dynamics (01:19:41)Universal Human Rights (01:23:07)Fallen natureUnion of opposites (01:25:58)Limited agents of creation, logos (01:29:35)Russian revolutions, The line of good and evil (01:35:46)Good, 2 types of evil and the danger of ideologies (01:40:23)Wrapping up, concluding thoughts (01:45:58)Imago Dei/Fallen as a heuristic compass by which we can navigate the worldOutro (01:53:51)Questions to ponder over Do you think we still hold a sense of individuality as sacred in modern society?How would your life change if you were to treat yourself and others as if they’re lives were so? How would your actions and decisions change if you considered yourself and others conscious moral agents participating in the arena?Could we strengthen the nodes on the network by fully adopting and internalising this mindset?Links to explore Imago Dei Dominion by Tom HollandGenesis 1:27Galatians 3:28Divine Right of Kings Impact of the Magna CartaNelson Mandela’s appeal to the Magna CartaGhandi’s reference to the Magna CartaPetition of RightThe Bloodless RevolutionBill of RightsLeviathan - Thomas HobbesThe Second treatise of Government - John Locke The Social Contract - Rousseau General WillThe American RevolutionThe French RevolutionLiberté, égalité, fraternitéTemple of ReasonUS ConstitutionUS Bill of RightsMartin Luther King JrWilberforceFrederick Douglas Universal Declaration of Human RightsAleksandr SolzhenitsynThe Gulag ArchipelagoGulag Contact  Metaperspective.io hello@metaperspective.io

    1h 58m

  9. EPISODE 9

    Whiplash | Episode 9

    How would you define the modern dilemma of our times? In this episode we trace the narrative arc of how our understanding of ourselves, each other, and the world around us radically transformed via the pursuit of the rational. We delve into the paradox of increasing scientific knowledge and technological power coupled with a diminishing sense of transcendent meaning and discuss its implications and consequences. Timestamps Recap (01:48)How do we see ourselves as individuals in modernity? (10:02)Sinking into a material world: From Image of God to automatons (16:21)The Scientific Revolution: A paradigm shift (23:58)Christianity as the basis for the scientific revolution (31:34)Fundamental Christian axioms (37:04)The Greeks and the emergence of the scientific method (42:52)Plato vs Aristotle // Emanation vs Immanation (51:22)The Copernican Revolution: Knocked off centre (55:15)Theological Shockwave - Impacts of heliocentrism (01:02:08)Spiritual & philosophical implications of being decentred (01:10:01)Science in the material world: Mechanistic mindsets (01:16:06)Darwin, Wallace: Pushed off the pinnacle (01:26:14)Freud: Masters of our own thoughts? (01:32:18)The pursuit of rationality: Ironies and Consequences (01:38:22)The modern dilemma (01:44:05)Outro (01:47:54)Question to ponder over In what ways do you see that feeling of whiplash, loss of agency and meaning, being manifest in the world today?Links to explore Awakening from the meaning crisis - John VervaekeImago DeiThrowness - Heidegger Oppenheimer - Encounter 1962Polynesian Island ExplorationPrime MoverAxial AgeDeductive Reasoning Inductive Reasoning  Renaissance Humanism Scholasticism Skholē Ptolemaic Geocentric Model Copernican Heliocentric Model GalileoSimplicio and the Pope "The Assayer" (1623)"[The book of nature] is written in the language of mathematics, and its characters are triangles, circles, and other geometrical figures, without which it is humanly impossible to understand a single word of it."Georges LemaitreHubble’s LawAlfred Russell Wallace Birds of Paradise description found in ‘The Malay Archipelago’, vol. 2, pp. 252–3Charles DarwinOn The Origin of SpeciesThe Descent of ManFreudThe Interpretation of DreamsThe Ego and the IdPrimary/Secondary Distinction Contact  Metaperspective.io hello@metaperspective.io

    1h 50m

  10. 08/04/2021

    Introduction

    Metaperspective.iohello@metaperspective.io

    2 min

  11. BONUS

    Where we're at | Interlude

    A different type of episode from the norm, this is a short intervening passage between the first 5 episodes that we’ve released so far and future episodes to come. We recorded the first 5 episodes of the show in 2020, now we’re starting to record the next episodes and seeing where the journey takes us. In the meantime we’ve put together this interlude with a series recap of where we’ve gotten to so far along with some clues as to what to expect in the next episode. Timestamps What’s different about this episode? (00:23)Why do an interlude? (01:51)What is there to do in the meantime? (02:10)A recap of the show so far (03:27)What’s next? (06:23)Contact  Metaperspective.iohello@metaperspective.io

    10 min
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About

An unfolding dialogue exploring how to think, act and be in a complex and uncertain world.

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  • Creator
    Matt & Andy
  • Years Active
    2K
  • Episodes
    12
  • Rating
    Clean
  • Copyright
    © 2025 Matt & Andy
  • Show Website
    Meta-Perspective