More or Less

Dave Morin, Jessica Lessin, Brit Morin, and Sam Lessin

Dave Morin, Jessica Lessin, Brit Morin, and Sam Lessin have debated the future of Silicon Valley and tech as the closest of friends for the last 15 years. Now six companies, two venture funds and more than a decade at Google, Apple and Facebook later, they are opening up the debate. From The Information, Offline Ventures, and Slow Ventures. Follow the crew: http://x.com/davemorin http://x.com/brit http://x.com/lessin http:/x.com/jessicalessin Follow the pod: https://moreorlesspod.com/ http://youtube.com/moreorlesspod https://x.com/moreorlesspod

  1. 2 days ago

    Anthropic Wants to Slow AI Down & Instinct Wants a $10B Valuation. Is It Because They're Losing? Is Dario Amodei Actually Right?

    Finally, a full house week where Sam is back from New York and the squad is back for a full dive into this week’s AI drama. Anthropic's Dario wrote a long essay calling for the AI race to slow down, weeks before a multi-trillion dollar IPO. Dave's read: Anthropic must be losing. Sam's read: the labs are bad businesses with no compounding advantage, so regulatory capture is the only move left.  Also this week: Sam's theory that OpenAI and Anthropic only become valuable as defense companies holding unreleased models in reserve, the poly-agent debate over whether normal people want one agent or ten, Instinct raising at $10 billion two weeks after $2.5 billion, and why everyone in the Valley is trading instead of investing. In this episode: - Why Dave thinks Dario’s slowdown essay is a sign Anthropic is falling behind, and what OpenRouter's data shows - Sam on why there's no return on being first, and why that pushes the labs toward regulatory capture - Brit on what's real in the safety debate, and the damned-if-you-do problem of racing China - What DeepMind's new boss and Satya Nadella think about building safety alongside the product - Sam's three eras of tech policy, from Bill Gates to embrace and extend - The defense company thesis: zero-day models held back like nuclear weapons in silos - Alignment's next frontier: is your agent working for you, or for the lab that made it? - Instinct's $10B round, OpenRouter's exit, and why Sam says he's "currently wrong" as a seed investor Chapters: 00:00 Intro 01:02 Not Dead Yet From the AGI 03:31 Jacob Coxon Quits Anthropic and Goes on a Media Tour 04:47 Dario's Slowdown Essay: Is Anthropic Just Losing? 06:13 Astra, OpenRouter, and DeepSeek Closing the Gap 06:45 Why the AI Labs Have No Compounding Advantage 07:29 Independent Assessors, Bioweapons, and Racing China 09:07 You Don't Need Superintelligence to Break the Banks 10:23 What DeepMind's New Boss and Satya Think About Safety 12:32 OpenAI's $1.5T Raise and the IPO That Keeps Slipping 13:03 Three Eras of Tech Policy: Gates, Google, Embrace and Extend 15:02 What DC Really Thinks About Anthropic 15:42 Should the Labs Red Team Each Other's Models? 18:42 Sam's Take: The AI Labs End Up as Defense Companies 20:54 10,000 Superintelligences in Silos 21:38 Alignment: Does Your Agent Work for You or the Lab? 23:44 The Poly-Agent Future: Muse, Grok, and Claude 24:47 Brit Pushes Back: Normal People Only Want One Agent 26:38 Oura's Agent Explains Jess's Sleep Data 28:40 Instinct Raising at $10B: Are These Numbers Fake? 30:40 Everyone's Trading, Nobody's Investing 33:27 Sam Built a Torah and Talmud App With Claude 35:28 Apple Eyes the Server Business Again 35:58 Sleep Age Wars: 8 Sleep, Oura, and Made-Up Scores 37:22 Entertaining Ourselves to Death 41:01 Building the Things Nobody Else Will Build 43:07 Tech's Democrat Problem: Jay Carney and Ron Conway 48:25 Doctor Strangelove and Not Looking at the Big Board 49:53 Pop Culture: Emmys, Taylor Swift, Silo, and Rogue Heroes 52:15 The WTF Lineup and the One-Name Theory 54:20 The Information's Most Influential People in Tech We're also on: X: https://twitter.com/moreorlesspod Instagram: https://instagram.com/moreorless Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/2CJdt6HhJ8ioNkbqqVKckC Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/more-or-less-from-the-morins-and-the-lessins/id1692234179 Connect with us here: 1) Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessin 2) Dave Morin: https://x.com/davemorin 3) Jessica Lessin: https://x.com/Jessicalessin 4) Brit Morin: https://x.com/brit About More or Less: For 15 years, the Morins and the Lessins have debated the future of Silicon Valley as the closest of friends. Every Friday, they break down technology, capital, and media. From The Information, Offline Ventures, and Slow Ventures.

  2. 11 Sept

    iPhone Duo, Meta Muse & Why AI Finally Scared Dave Morin

    Dave Morin goes hands-on with Apple's iPhone Duo, the crew tests Meta's new Muse agent and asks whether it can hold up once Google ships its own, and Dave explains why OpenAI's Astra is the first AI model in a long time that felt scary to use. Dave, Brit, and Jess break down the week (Sam's at the US Open). Also this week: a former Anthropic researcher's AI doom media tour, weeks before Anthropic's IPO, and whether it's a real warning or a play for regulatory capture. Plus the Apple Watch feature that transcribes your conversations all day, Jeffrey Katzenberg's new Hollywood AI venture, and the forgotten story of Venmo's viral billboards. In this episode: - Dave's hands-on take on the iPhone Duo, its $2,000 price, and why Apple is going foldable now - The Apple Watch feature that listens all day, and what it means for Granola - Meta's Muse agent: why it knew almost nothing when asked "what do you know about me?" - Why Google hasn't shipped its agent yet, and how trust vs. distribution shapes the agent wars - Why OpenAI's Astra felt scary to Dave, and what happens when you run millions of them at once - Dave's two takes on the AI doom media tour, including whether it's a play for regulatory capture - Why the AI labs can't slow down, and OpenAI's merge clause if someone else reaches AGI - The Venmo documentary and the "Lucas" billboards that went viral with almost no budget Chapters: 00:00 Trailer 01:26 Can AI Agents Win Your Fantasy Football League? 02:39 Jess vs. the Bots: School Sign-Ups and Indian Wells Tickets 05:28 Apple's Big Hardware Event Under Its New CEO 06:07 iPhone Duo Hands-On: Size, Screen, and Camera 09:35 Folded Modes, Kid Cam, and the $2,000 Price Tag 11:41 Why Apple Is Going Foldable Now (Hint: China) 12:13 Apple Watch Takes On Oura and Whoop 13:12 Audio Intelligence: The Apple Watch That Listens All Day 15:25 Always-On AI and Apple's Shot at OpenAI and Meta 16:59 Meta's Muse Agent: What Does It Know About You? 20:30 The Agent Wars: Muse, Instinct, Hermes, and OpenClaw 22:26 Why Google Hasn't Shipped Its Agent Yet 23:31 Trust vs. Distribution: Meta, Google, and OpenAI 25:02 Harness Wars: Why Agents Are Still in 1982 27:13 Jeffrey Katzenberg's Hollywood AI Venture 29:35 Anthropic's IPO and the AI Doom Media Tour 30:56 If It Bleeds, It Leads: Why AI Fear Sells 32:04 Take One: A Psyop for Regulatory Capture? 33:43 Take Two: Why OpenAI's Astra Felt Scary 36:49 Why the AI Labs Can't Slow Down 38:14 OpenAI's AGI Merge Clause 40:12 The Venmo Documentary and the Ace Hotel Origin Story 45:02 How Venmo's "Lucas" Billboards Went Viral 46:31 Coming Soon: Altman, Musk, and Facebook Movies 47:41 US Open Picks and the 4 AM Match Problem We're also on: X: https://twitter.com/moreorlesspod Instagram: https://instagram.com/moreorless Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/2CJdt6HhJ8ioNkbqqVKckC Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/more-or-less-from-the-morins-and-the-lessins/id1692234179 Full transcripts: https://moreorlesspod.com/episodes/ Connect with us here: Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessin Dave Morin: https://x.com/davemorin Jessica Lessin: https://x.com/Jessicalessin Brit Morin: https://x.com/brit About More or Less: For 15 years, the Morins and the Lessins have debated the future of Silicon Valley as the closest of friends. Every Friday, they break down technology, capital, and media. From The Information, Offline Ventures, and Slow Ventures.

  3. 4 Sept

    AI Agents Are Going Rogue. Should We Be Worried?

    Sam has entered what Jessica calls the “recursive Sam loop,” producing children’s media in his own voice, letting agents deploy their own apps, and having bots track his health. But things take a turn when Claude refuses one of his requests, seemingly holds a grudge, and leaves Sam wondering whether his own AI might turn on him. That sends the squad down the bigger rabbit hole of AI control: rogue agent swarms, models breaking out of sandboxes, what “alignment” actually means, and why Dave thinks autonomous agents need an entirely new security layer. Plus, OpenClaw 2.0 goes multiplayer, everyone debates whether Slack is any good for agents, Suds explains why he avoids the AI app layer, and Tesla’s Cybercab raises questions about Waymo’s robotaxi lead. Then Google comes for Canva, Sam makes the case for boring “LLM wrappers” built for Middle America, and no one can tell whether Dario Amodei, Marc Benioff, or Taylor Swift are even real on the internet anymore. Which feels about right. Chapters: 0:00 Episode trailer 1:10 Backstreet Boys convert Dave 3:21 The recursive Sam loop 8:58 Claude refuses Sam while Grok says yes 15:50 Can we actually contain autonomous agents? 19:10 OpenAI’s next model and the observability trade-off 22:14 If AI is this interoperable, where does anyone make money? 24:45 OpenClaw 2.0 goes multiplayer 26:26 Is Slack actually terrible for AI agents? 28:46 Suds joins the podcast 33:02 Waymo, Cybercab and the robotaxi wars 39:49 How Marc Benioff stays in the flow 42:38 Suds on investing in the AI infrastructure bottleneck 46:27 Can Google actually disrupt Canva? 51:34 Jessica gets fooled by AI on Facebook We’re also on ↓X: https://twitter.com/moreorlesspodInstagram: https://instagram.com/moreorlessYouTube: https://youtu.be/0XQ4tslBiboConnect with us here:1) Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessin2) Dave Morin: https://x.com/davemorin3) Jessica Lessin: https://x.com/Jessicalessin4) Brit Morin: https://x.com/brit

  4. 28 Aug

    Meta’s $17B Reckoning & Why Parents Can’t Compete With Big Tech's Algorithm

    Sam is recording poolside, Jess is embracing her agentic era, and somehow that’s the least chaotic part of this week’s episode. The squad digs into Meta’s $17 billion settlement over child safety and whether social media should basically be treated like alcohol, before asking the harder question: are parents even capable of competing with algorithms anymore? Dave says parents are “outgunned,” Sam thinks most parental controls are useless policy theater, Brit wants to rethink the operating system itself, and Jess would simply like her kids to touch grass. Then, with Tim Cook preparing to pass the torch at Apple, the group debates his real legacy, whether 15 years of world-class optimization was enough, why Apple Silicon may turn out to be his most important AI bet, and whether Apple’s decision to sit out the AI infrastructure arms race will eventually look brilliant or like the company completely missed the next era. Chapters: 0:00 Episode start 1:06 Sam goes poolside and everyone’s agents are working 4:35 Jessica enters her agentic era 7:51 Meta’s $17B child safety settlement 33:37 Could AI finally make parental controls useful? 38:47 Why Apple keeps escaping the kids-and-tech debate 43:29 Tim Cook’s Apple farewell 49:58 Apple Intelligence and Cook’s unfinished AI legacy 57:49 Backstreet Boys, the US Open and sign-off We’re also on ↓ X: https://twitter.com/moreorlesspod Instagram: https://instagram.com/moreorless YouTube: https://youtu.be/6HO6naKM8yE Connect with us here: 1) Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessin 2) Dave Morin: https://x.com/davemorin 3) Jessica Lessin: https://x.com/Jessicalessin 4) Brit Morin: https://x.com/brit

  5. 21 Aug

    Stripe Buys OpenRouter, OpenAI vs. Anthropic & the AI Backlash

    Stripe buys OpenRouter for billions, which naturally raises the question: did Stripe just buy critical AI infrastructure, or a very expensive router with great distribution? The original squad is back to debate why $7B acquisitions somehow feel normal now, whether Google already has agentic commerce won by owning your inbox, calendar, and Drive, and why Anthropic vs. OpenAI might be less about who has the best model and more about who built the right company. Sam makes the case that OpenAI pulled off the “greatest fundraising story in history,” Dave argues Grokbot might officially make AI a three-player race, and everyone tries to figure out how you price any of these companies when no lead seems to last. Plus, is AI a great investment or just a great trade, does the data center backlash actually have anything to do with data centers, have we built trillions of dollars of infrastructure before finding enough use cases for it, and, naturally in pop corner, Josh Kushner bought into the Lakers. Chapters: 0:00 Episode trailer 1:00 Episode start 4:00 This week in AI 5:00 Stripe buys OpenRouter 8:30 Is OpenRouter actually worth billions? 11:00 The agentic commerce bet 14:00 Why Google could own the AI assistant 17:30 The DOJ investigates Andreessen Horowitz 22:00 Anthropic vs. OpenAI 26:00 Why OpenAI is struggling in enterprise 28:30 Can anyone actually price AI companies? 30:00 OpenAI’s “greatest fundraising story in history” 33:30 Is AI a great investment or just a great trade? 36:00 SpaceX, Moderna and narrative capitalism 37:30 Grok enters the AI race 41:00 AI makes software increasingly disposable 45:00 The AI data center backlash 47:30 “The backlash is that AI sucks” 48:30 Did we build too much AI infrastructure? 53:30 Josh Kushner, Thrive and the Lakers 55:30 Travis Kelce enters the NIL business We’re also on ↓ X: https://twitter.com/moreorlesspod Instagram: https://instagram.com/moreorless YouTube: https://youtu.be/Xwzl-Ihyyr0 Connect with us here: 1) Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessin 2) Dave Morin: https://x.com/davemorin 3) Jessica Lessin: https://x.com/Jessicalessin 4) Brit Morin: https://x.com/brit

  6. 14 Aug

    Special Edition MOL with Josh Wolfe, Rachel Holt, Scott Belsky, Scott Stanford, and Peter Deng

    A very special edition of More or Less, featuring Josh Wolfe (Founder, Lux Capital), Rachel Holt (Founder, Construct Capital; former Head of North America at Uber), Scott Belsky (Partner, A24; Founder, Behance), Scott Stanford (Founder, Acme Capital), and Peter Deng (GP, Felicis; formerly Google, Facebook, Instagram, Uber, Airtable, and OpenAI). Sam takes over hosting duties and assembles an overqualified group of investor friends to argue about where AI goes from here, from agents, Grok, Claude, and the shift from “help me do this” to “just do it,” to trust, data ownership, Apple’s AI advantage, open vs. closed models, model routing, and why proprietary data may become the real moat. They also dig into NVIDIA’s massive compute financing strategy, the risks of securitizing GPUs like long-lived infrastructure, what the OpenAI executive exodus says about the AI talent market, and the bigger question hanging over all of it: if AI really changes work, who actually participates in the upside? Chapters 0:00 Episode trailer 1:24 Episode start 1:59 Meet the panel, every flavor of venture capital 5:14 Consumer AI agents cross the Rubicon 7:24 The end of websites, when agents talk to agents 8:32 Which AI companies do you actually trust? 11:41 Why Apple could win AI by doing nothing 16:40 If models commoditize, unique data becomes the moat 22:15 Open vs. closed AI, and who owns your data 27:06 NVIDIA’s balance sheet shenanigans 31:26 NVIDIA gets the upside, who gets the risk? 34:31 Nobody has ever securitized compute 35:02 Who owns the wealth AI creates? 39:38 What happens when economic opportunity runs out? 42:23 Why OpenAI’s best people keep leaving 47:23 Why AI may look more like GPS than Facebook 49:14 What actually happened with Airtable 50:30 Lightning Round: Rachel Holt on physical-world investing 53:00 Scott Belsky on AI watermarks, provenance & deepfakes 54:15 Josh Wolfe on socialism, Europe & defense 57:15 Final thoughts & sign-off We’re also on ↓X: https://twitter.com/moreorlesspodInstagram: https://instagram.com/moreorlessSpotify: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/moreorlesspodConnect with us here:1) Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessin2) Dave Morin: https://x.com/davemorin3) Jessica Lessin: https://x.com/Jessicalessin4) Brit Morin: https://x.com/brit

  7. 7 Aug

    Jeff Dean Leaves Google, Airtable Sells, and the Bag-Securing Era

    Sam records from the beach while dealing with a broken bilge pump. Dave calls in after herding cattle. Fortunately, tech continues without them, which Sam takes as further proof that AGI is already running the industry. The crew unpacks Google's leadership shakeup and Jeff Dean's departure after 27 years, debates whether Airtable's sale to Bending Spoons is the blueprint for surviving the AI transition, and Sam argues that today's AI labs look increasingly like yesterday's overvalued SaaS companies. Along the way they explain why Sam's AI built his kid an iPhone game, why OpenAI's luxury creator retreat backfired, why Apple may have accidentally created its own lawsuit, and whether AI can ever overcome the growing public backlash against it. Chapters: 0:00 Episode Trailer 1:07 Episode Start 2:08 Sam's Boston Whaler Beach Studio 3:13 Dave Herds Cattle in Montana 5:31 Google's AI Shakeup, Jeff Dean Leaves, Demis Steps Back 8:57 Why Great Researchers Don't Always Make Great CEOs 10:48 Recursive Self-Improvement and the AI Talent Wars 19:41 Airtable Sells to Bending Spoons 25:33 Not Every SaaS Company Is Dead 27:50 The Constellation Software Playbook 30:05 The Next Big Write Downs Are AI Labs 31:59 Apple vs. OpenAI, Courtesy of iCloud 35:20 OpenAI's Creator Summit Backlash 40:53 Why People Still Hate AI 43:39 AI Slop and the Content Problem 45:11 SpaceX's Lockup and Number Big 48:00 Nikita Bier Leaves X 50:22 Jess's Posting Dilemma 53:40 Next Week on More or Less We’re also on ↓X: https://twitter.com/moreorlesspodInstagram: https://instagram.com/moreorlessSpotify: https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/moreorlesspod Connect with us here:1) Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessin2) Dave Morin: https://x.com/davemorin3) Jessica Lessin: https://x.com/Jessicalessin4) Brit Morin: https://x.com/brit

  8. 31 Jul

    Zuck says AI is for everyone, His Rivals Ask Washington To Slow it Down

    New studio set up: the squad now records from a parked Tesla in the middle of a rainstorm while Sam is on the beach, and somehow it turned into one of our favorite episodes. We break down Meta's new AI campaign, Zuckerberg's vision for AI, why more than 1,000 frontier AI researchers are asking Washington to slow development, and whether fear has become the easiest narrative in tech. Then we get into China cracking deep ultraviolet lithography, what it means for ASML and the AI race, why AI demand still isn't slowing, Lilian Weng's move from Thinking Machines to OpenAI, and Sam's theory that Silicon Valley has developed an Oppenheimer complex. Chapters: 0:00 Episode trailer 1:23 Episode start 9:02 Meta's Ad Campaign Rejects The Doomers 11:14 Zuckerberg's Optimism Blitz Actually Lands 13:11 AI's Dark Side Raises Easier Money 15:04 Sam's Bot Read 4GB Of Dad's Journals 17:28 Nobody Wants To Be Anthropic 18:56 Anthropic Runs On Spite For OpenAI 21:10 OpenAI Was The Original Evil Empire 22:57 Meta Is Still A Centralized Ad Company 24:46 Decentralization Loses Without A Jedi 26:01 Apple Won On Politics, Not Technology 27:16 Meta Earnings Miss On Lawsuits And Severance 28:33 China Cracks DUV, ASML Takes The Hit 29:57 Execs Privately Reject The China AI War 32:39 The Compute Debate Gavin Baker Started 39:13 X Is The Tech Town Square Now 46:57 Lilian Weng Quits For Health, Joins OpenAI 53:50 AI Is A Crisis Of Meaning 54:57 Book The Conference Before You're Invited We’re also on ↓ X: https://twitter.com/moreorlesspod Instagram: https://instagram.com/moreorless YouTube: https://youtu.be/PBGC6CjfdtM Connect with us here: 1) Sam Lessin: https://x.com/lessin 2) Dave Morin: https://x.com/davemorin 3) Jessica Lessin: https://x.com/Jessicalessin 4) Brit Morin: https://x.com/brit

See All (169)

About

Dave Morin, Jessica Lessin, Brit Morin, and Sam Lessin have debated the future of Silicon Valley and tech as the closest of friends for the last 15 years. Now six companies, two venture funds and more than a decade at Google, Apple and Facebook later, they are opening up the debate. From The Information, Offline Ventures, and Slow Ventures. Follow the crew: http://x.com/davemorin http://x.com/brit http://x.com/lessin http:/x.com/jessicalessin Follow the pod: https://moreorlesspod.com/ http://youtube.com/moreorlesspod https://x.com/moreorlesspod

Information

  • Creator
    Dave Morin, Jessica Lessin, Brit Morin, and Sam Lessin
  • Years Active
    2023 - 2026
  • Episodes
    169
  • Rating
    Explicit
  • Copyright
    © Dave Morin, Jessica Lessin, Brit Morin, and Sam Lessin
  • Show Website
    More or Less

You Might Also Like