The Experience Strategy Podcast

Dave Norton, Aransas Savas, and Joe Pine
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With over 100 episodes, the Experience Strategy Podcast is that secret superpower that helps strategists around the world grow their business acumen. Your hosts, Aransas Savas, Joe Pine, and Dave Norton discuss the most important topics in the business world, but they do it by focusing on the experiences and transformations that customers attain.

  1. 11 HR AGO

    Why Spas and Gyms Are Beating Stores — and What It Signals About the Transformation Economy

    For the first time on record, experience-based tenants — spas, gyms, wellness studios, entertainment venues — are outpacing traditional goods retailers in leasing shopping center space, with wellness and fitness leading the charge. Joe Pine, Dave Norton, and Aransas Savas unpack what this shift actually means: it is not just a retail story, it is confirmation that the transformation economy Joe predicted more than two decades ago has arrived. The conversation traces the arc from malls to experiential anchors, examines why some brands (Red Bull) rode the wave and others (Nike) missed it, and lands on a provocation for any company still selling goods: if you want to sell products today, sell experiences. If you want to sell even more products, sell transformation. Key Takeaways The bifurcation is accelerating. Post-COVID data from high-end luxury shows goods flattening or declining in price while experiences shot upward. The Economist's October feature on high-net-worth luxury quietly re-labeled "services" as "experiences" in its TikTok follow-up — a small edit that tells the whole story. Experiential venues are the new anchors. The old mall anchor was a department store. The new anchor is an escape room cluster, a bowling alley that is really an entertainment complex, an NHL team's practice facility inside a converted suburban mall. Square footage is shifting toward places people want to spend time, not places they pass through. Goods still sell — but best through the experience. Joe's story about the original Nike Town in Chicago captures the mistake most brands still make: Nike Town had a line out the door and did not charge admission. Over time, goods crept back into the floor space that used to belong to basketball courts and events. Red Bull took the opposite path and became an experience company that sells an energy drink. The trajectories diverged for a reason. Experiences commoditize fast. SoulCycle opened a category; spin studios saturated it within a decade. The same glut is forming in spas and boutique gyms right now. The next move is specialization and bespoke combinations — and beyond that, transformation. Transformation is the durable business model. Experiences are episodic. Transformations are long-term engagements, which makes them long-term revenue. Aransas frames the shift cleanly: not just time well spent, but time well invested. Companies that move from experience provider to journey partner earn a different kind of relationship — and a different kind of margin. Social media is an experience platform. Influencers are in the experience business. Some investors will not touch a product today until the influencer strategy is nailed down. Advertising and packaging are shrinking as a share of how people discover and buy. Memorable Moments Joe's recap of his Monaco keynote at the Forbes Travel Guide Summit, where luxury goods manufacturers showed up because they are all getting into luxury experiences now The Nike Town queue that was not charging admission — and what it foreshadowed about Nike's retreat from flagship experiences Dave on the Utah Mammoth buying a suburban mall and turning most of the square footage into a place fans come to watch practice Aransas on walking out of a spa day carrying products because she had just seen, on her own face, what they actually do The throwaway that lands: "Gosh, we're smart." The Strategic Question for Every Brand If you sell goods, where is your experiential venue — physical or virtual — and what transformation are you actually offering the customer who shows up? The brands that answer this well over the next five years will be the ones occupying the square footage the department stores used to hold. Also In This Episode Aransas's Substack is now the 30th fastest-rising publication in Health and Wellness on the platform. Subscribe, Share, Comment If this conversation sparked something, share it with a colleague and leave a comment. We read them. And subscribe to the Substack for the written companion to the show. Joe is heading out on book tour for The Transformation Economy. We will be back soon.

    19 min

  2. 2 APR

    AI Twins and the Future of Research

    AI Twins and the Future of Research The Experience Strategy Podcast Episode Overview Two Wall Street Journal articles are making waves in the market research world — one asking whether AI can replace human research participants, and another profiling a teenage-founded startup called Aura that's already attracted McDonald's and EY. Dave, Joe, and Aransas bring their combined decades of consumer research experience to the question everyone in insights is quietly asking: is this the end of primary research, or the beginning of something more powerful? What We Cover The two WSJ articles at the center of this conversation The first covers Simile, a startup building agentic AI twins modeled on real people for polling and market research. The second profiles Aura, a company founded by people younger than Aransas's high schooler, betting that AI bots can predict human behavior better than humans themselves. Dave's evolving reaction — Worry, skepticism, and then possibility His first instinct was worry. Stone Mantel has built its practice on deep consumer research, and the promise of AI twins that can answer with 0.5% accuracy at first felt wrong. But the more he sat with it, the more he saw a useful analogy: flight simulators. Simulators serve a real purpose as long as everyone is clear they are not the same as flying the actual plane. The critical flaw in current AI twin models Both Dave and Joe land on the same problem independently: AI twins are built on static preferences and demographic profiles. They treat people as if behavior is fixed — "this is how soccer moms respond" — when the entire premise of situational research is that behavior shifts with context. What mode is the person in? What situation are they navigating? Those questions are not being asked. Joe puts it plainly: they didn't ask anything about modes. Where AI twins might actually work well Trend prediction and aggregate market analysis are reasonable use cases. If you want to know whether fruit-flavored tea is about to have a moment, AI models scanning historical purchasing data and cultural signals can probably get you there. The harder problem — and the more valuable one — is understanding what a specific person cares about in a specific moment, and that requires something current AI twins are not equipped to provide. What AI twins could become with better design Dave raises an intriguing possibility: after completing primary research with a real consumer, could that data become the seed for ongoing simulation and modeling? Not as a replacement for the research, but as a way to extend its value across time and decisions. He also flags the bias risk — every feedback loop that improves AI accuracy may also drift it further from the original human signal. Joe's Wall-E scenario The Terminator isn't Joe's fear. Wall-E is. Personal language models hanging out in your Alexa, learning everything you say and do, eventually making purchasing decisions on your behalf — and research shifting to focus on the PLM rather than the person. The result: consumers with no agency, led entirely by AI intermediaries and the consumer goods companies they serve. The consent problem CBS claimed 400,000 people opted in to being replicated as AI twins. Aransas is skeptical — and direct. That was some very fine print. Companies building AI twin programs need to be serious about how they are collecting this data, not just technically compliant. Key Idea If AI can actually predict behavior change, it is no longer a tool — it is strategy. That quote, attributed to a Coca-Cola executive in the second article, captures what is at stake. Dave frames it through the lens of superpowers: AI gives companies the ability to do things they could not do otherwise. The question is whether the thing they are doing actually reflects how real humans behave. Continue the Conversation Join Dave, Joe, and Aransas on The Experience Strategist Substack to go deeper on this episode's themes.

    22 min

  3. 26 FEB

    Something Big Is Happening — And Experience Strategists Need a Point of View on AI

    The Experience Strategy Podcast | substack.theexperiencestrategist.com A post on X went viral — 38,000 reshares, 83 million reads. Written by respected AI voice Matt Schumer, it opens with a gut-punch analogy: think back to February 2020. Most of us weren't paying attention to a virus spreading overseas. Then in three weeks, everything changed. Schumer's argument is that we are in a similar "this seems overblown" phase right now — except what's coming is bigger than COVID. Dave, Joe, and Aransas dig into the article, push back where it's overblown, and land on what experience strategists actually need to do about it. What's in This Episode The article's core argument. AI isn't just getting better — it's getting faster, more capable at complex tasks, and increasingly independent of human involvement. The latest models are now building and debugging the next version of themselves. Schumer's point: no matter how complex or human your job feels, it's getting closer to AI's reach by the millisecond, not the minute. What Schumer says to do about it — and the team's reaction: Use AI seriously. Don't dabble. Understand what it can actually do. Get your financial house in order. This isn't the time to be overextended. Lean into what's hardest to replace. Anything you do primarily on a screen is likely a 1–2 year exposure. Rethink what you're telling your kids. Their dreams just got closer — and the path there looks different. Get in the habit of adapting now, not when you're forced to. Joe's take: good prescription, overblown description. AI is a tool, and no technology in history has eliminated more jobs than it created. The real question is mindset: executives who come to AI asking "how do I automate people out?" will find exactly that. Executives who ask "how do I augment my people?" will find something much more powerful in the human-plus-AI combination. The disruption, as with all disruptive innovation, starts at the bottom of the value chain and moves up — which means you need to be working above it. The echo chamber problem. Joe raises a concern that's already documented: AI increasingly trains on AI output, creating what researchers are calling model collapse — a cyclical echo chamber where biases get replicated and amplified rather than corrected. The telephone game at civilizational scale. Aransas connects this to the show Pluribus, which she found boring as a narrative but compelling as a metaphor for hive-mind homogenization. What experience strategists specifically need right now — three points from Dave: Provenance. As AI commoditizes outputs, original sources become more valuable, not less. If you're building consumer insights without actually talking to consumers, you're already three steps from provenance. The strategists who can signal authentic, original sourcing will be disproportionately valuable. Cross-disciplinary thinking. Experience strategists have been operating too narrowly — personas, journey maps, CX mechanics. AI gives you superpowers across marketing, planning, and adjacent disciplines. Use them. Going deeper on the same narrow lane is the wrong direction. A strategic point of view. Not an opinion. A point of view. The difference: a POV is grounded in a real perspective on where things are headed and what companies should do about it. Joe's Transformation Economy is the model. Right now, the most defensible experience POV is transformation — because transformation is the economic offering most deeply dependent on human expertise, authentic relationships, and the kind of curated AI deployment that actually requires strategic judgment. The era of typos and texture. Aransas's 15-year-old put it well: right now, the most human signal is imperfection. Messy feelings, quirky punctuation, genuine awkwardness — these are becoming markers of authenticity in a world of smoothed-out AI output. The demand for what feels genuinely human is rising alongside the supply of what doesn't. Key Quotes "Knowledge work has changed forever. That is going to be a rough adjustment for all of us — and all experience strategists are knowledge workers." — Dave Norton "If you come with the mindset of how can I get rid of people, you'll find ways to get rid of people. But if you come with a mindset of how this augments my people's skills and makes them better — you'll be amazed at what human plus AI can do." — Joe Pine "Provenance is going to become more and more important. The inputs have to be better. Original data, original source — how do you get to that?" — Dave Norton "The most defensible experience point of view you can have right now is probably transformation — because it's the one built on technology and human expertise together." — Aransas Savas "This isn't a sit-on-our-hands-and-wait situation. This is a get-engaged situation." — Aransas Savas Referenced "Something Big Is Happening" by Matt Schumer — [https://x.com/mattshumer_/status/2021256989876109403] The Transformation Economy by B. Joseph Pine II — available now wherever books are sold Anthropic CEO quote: "AI will be substantially smarter than almost all humans at almost all tasks by 2026 or 2027." The Experience Strategy Podcast is hosted by Aransas Savas, Dave Norton, and Joe Pine. Subscribe at substack.theexperiencestrategist.com.

    25 min

  4. 5 FEB

    It's Launched! The Story Behind the Transformation Economy Book

    In this special episode of the Experience Strategy Podcast, Joe Pine shares with Dave and Aransas background about the book!  To celebrate the release of his new book, The Transformation Economy. The conversation traces the book's origins from the final two chapters of The Experience Economy, explores why the world is finally ready for this idea, and unpacks key frameworks — including encapsulation (preparation, reflection, and integration) — that make experiences truly transformative. The trio also discusses the role of AI in enabling transformation, why businesses must foster human flourishing, and who stands to benefit most from reading the book. Key Topics Why now for The Transformation Economy? Joe waited over 25 years because "the world wasn't ready" and he "didn't know enough." Research through Stone Mantle's collaboratives, the World Experience Organization, and post-COVID shifts toward meaningful experiences signaled the time had come. Catalysts for transformation. The most prevalent catalyst is trauma — illness, loss, job changes, retirement. These disruptions create the conditions where people seek to see, do, and be differently. The four spheres of human flourishing: Health & well-being Wealth & prosperity Knowledge & wisdom Purpose & meaning Encapsulation — the essential framework (Chapter 4): To turn a memorable experience into a transformative one, you need three layers around the core experience: preparation (priming beforehand), reflection (making meaning afterward — which retroactively increases the value of the experience), and integration (sustaining change over time). The business model problem. Most companies get paid for the event, not the outcome. Shifting to outcome-based pricing — as McKinsey is doing with AI projects — aligns incentives with lasting transformation. AI as a transformation enabler. AI makes the hardest parts of delivering transformation (especially ongoing integration and support) dramatically more accessible and affordable. Who Should Read This Book? Companies in education, finance, health, and well-being Any business focused on improving the lives of families and individuals The creator economy — creators already doing transformation work who need frameworks to do it well and realize its full value Notable Quotes "The entire raison d'être of business is to foster human flourishing." — Joe Pine "Reflection retroactively increases the value of the experience." — Joe Pine "If you don't do it, it's just lazy." — Aransas Savas, on using available technology to encapsulate experiences Mentioned in This Episode The Transformation Economy by Joe Pine The Experience Economy by Joe Pine & Jim Gilmore Stone Mantel's Experience Strategy Collaboratives The World Experience Organization (founded by James Wallman) Arrival 360 Conference Daniel Kahneman's experiencing self vs. remembering self McKinsey's outcome-based AI pricing model Podcast Sponsors: Learn more about Stone Mantel https://www.stonemantel.co Sign up for the Experience Strategist Substack here: https://theexperiencestrategist.substack.com

    21 min

  5. 29 JAN

    The Big, Transformational, Business of Longevity

    Summary In this episode of the Experience Strategy Podcast, hosts Aransas Savas, Joe Pine, and Dave Norton discuss the burgeoning field of longevity and transformation. They explore the aspirations of individuals seeking to live longer and healthier lives, the shift in healthcare from a reactive to a proactive approach, and the role of social proof in driving transformation. The conversation also touches on the evolution of trust in the age of social media, the changing narrative around aging, and the future accessibility of longevity solutions. Takeaways People aspire to live longer and healthier lives. The healthcare industry is shifting from fixing problems to promoting flourishing. Social proof is becoming increasingly important in the transformation economy. Decentralized trust is shaping how people validate health claims. The placebo effect plays a significant role in perceived health outcomes. Aging is often misunderstood; many peak in their 50s and 60s. The evolution of science and brand is changing customer expectations. Wealthy individuals often drive innovation in health and longevity. The future of longevity solutions may become more accessible over time. Trust in brands is less centralized and more influenced by personal experiences.  Chapters 00:00 Introduction to Transformation and Longevity 03:10 The Ambition of Living Longer and Healthier 05:59 The Shift in Healthcare: From Fixing to Flourishing 09:07 The Role of Social Proof in the Transformation Economy 12:16 The Impact of Personal Research and Influencers 15:13 The Evolution of Science and Brand in Health 18:02 Reframing Aging: Opportunities in the Second Half of Life 21:14 The Future of Longevity and Accessibility Podcast Sponsors: Learn more about Stone Mantel https://www.stonemantel.co Sign up for the Experience Strategist Substack here: https://theexperiencestrategist.substack.com

    23 min

  6. 18/12/2025

    What Sam Altman's Code Red Says About The Future of AI

    In this episode of the Experience Strategy podcast, hosts Aransas Savas, Joe Pine, and Dave Norton discuss the recent developments in AI leadership, particularly focusing on Sam Altman's 'code red' declaration regarding OpenAI's competition with Google. They explore the importance of experience in AI development, the frameworks that should guide AI companies, and the evolving expectations of users. The conversation delves into the distinctions between 'stupid', 'dumb', 'smart', and 'genius' AI, emphasizing the need for contextual understanding and anticipation in AI solutions. The episode concludes with thoughts on the future of AI personal assistants and the potential for a more integrated AI experience. Takeaways Experience is the key differentiator in AI competition. Frameworks like 'Stupid, Dumb, Smart, Genius' help understand AI evolution. Consumer expectations for AI are rapidly changing. AI must focus on contextual understanding to improve user experience. The distinction between smart and genius AI is crucial for development. AI hallucinations undermine user trust and effectiveness. Companies need to anticipate user needs for better AI solutions. Personal assistant AI must fulfill its promise to users. The future of AI lies in creating integrated, context-aware systems. Experience strategy is essential for navigating the AI landscape. Chapters 00:00 Introduction to Experience Strategy Podcast 01:26 AI Leadership and Experience Focus 06:22 Frameworks for AI and Experience Strategy 11:56 Understanding AI: Stupid, Dumb, Smart, Genius 19:24 The Future of AI and Personal Assistants   Podcast Sponsors: Learn more about Stone Mantel https://www.stonemantel.co Sign up for the Experience Strategist Substack here: https://theexperiencestrategist.substack.com

    25 min

  7. 19/11/2025

    The Ultra-Rich No Longer Want Luxury Goods, They Want Purpose

    The conversation explores the evolving perception of wealth and meaning, highlighting a shift towards purpose-driven initiatives among wealthy individuals like Musk and Gates. Taken from the article in the Economist, entitled the Ultra-rich Are Giving Up on Luxury Assets, it discusses how traditional symbols of wealth are losing significance as people seek deeper meaning in their financial pursuits. Takeaways People are starting to think differently about what is meaningful. Owning luxury items does not equate to personal meaning anymore. Wealthy individuals are focusing on greater purposes for their money. Musk and Gates exemplify this shift towards purpose-driven wealth. The current transitional period is reshaping our understanding of wealth. Eradicating world hunger and space exploration are new priorities. Meaning is becoming more important than material possessions. The conversation reflects a broader societal change in values. Wealth is being redefined in terms of impact rather than ownership. Purpose-driven initiatives are gaining traction among the wealthy.   Chapters 00:00:12 Introduction to Experience Strategy 00:00:41 The Economist Article Discussion 00:01:21 Luxury Goods and Experiences 00:02:12 Premiumization and Ultra High Experiences 00:03:13 Value of Experiences Over Goods 00:04:18 Branded Hotels and Innovation 00:06:11 Transitional Period in Consumer Perception Read More: https://www.economist.com/finance-and-economics/2025/10/12/why-the-ultra-rich-are-giving-up-on-luxury-assets Podcast Sponsors: Learn more about Stone Mantel https://www.stonemantel.co Sign up for the Experience Strategist Substack here: https://theexperiencestrategist.substack.com

    22 min

  8. 12/11/2025

    Remaking the Premium Movie Experience

    Two articles caught our attention. The first was in The Hollywood Reporter about a new movie theater concepts with private rooms and high end food in New York. The second was a story about the power of IMAX in the movie industry, per the Wall Street Journal.  In this episode, Joe Pine, Aransas Savas, and Dave Norton discuss the evolving landscape of the movie theater experience, particularly in light of the pandemic's impact. They explore new concepts in Hollywood, such as premium movie theaters and IMAX, and how these innovations cater to changing consumer preferences. The conversation emphasizes the importance of customization, personalization, and the need for theaters to create engaging experiences that resonate with audiences. The hosts also provide valuable insights for experience strategists on how to adapt to these trends and enhance the overall consumer experience. Takeaways The pandemic significantly impacted the movie theater industry, leading to a decline in attendance. Premiumization is a key trend in the film industry, focusing on enhancing the overall experience. Customization and personalization are crucial for attracting audiences back to theaters. Consumers decide the 'when' or the situation, then watch the movie Theaters need to innovate and create engaging environments to compete with home viewing. Experience strategists should measure the money value of time (MVT) in their offerings. The integration of social components can enhance the movie-going experience. Chapters 01:23 Hollywood's New Movie Theater Concepts 02:38 The Impact of the Pandemic on Movie Theaters 04:47 Premiumization in the Film Industry 06:40 Customization and Personalization of Movie Experiences 08:57 Consumer Preferences Post-COVID 11:38 The Role of IMAX and Alternative Experiences 16:41 Innovations in the Theater Space 20:15 Key Takeaways for Experience Strategists   Read More: https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/business/business-news/inside-metro-private-cinema-tim-league-movie-theater-1236311204/ https://www.wsj.com/business/media/imax-movie-release-trend-6f4587a2?st=PKpj1G&reflink=desktopwebshare_permalink Podcast Sponsors: Learn more about Stone Mantel https://www.stonemantel.co Sign up for the Experience Strategist Substack here: https://theexperiencestrategist.substack.com

    24 min
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With over 100 episodes, the Experience Strategy Podcast is that secret superpower that helps strategists around the world grow their business acumen. Your hosts, Aransas Savas, Joe Pine, and Dave Norton discuss the most important topics in the business world, but they do it by focusing on the experiences and transformations that customers attain.

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