It Shouldn't Be This Hard

Phil White & Heidi Schoeneck
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The podcast that dives deep into the messy, meaningful work of responsible business and conscious leadership. Learn more at: grounded.world/itshouldntbethishard. Hosted by Phil White and Heidi Schoeneck, co-founders of Grounded – and joined by Gaia, their brilliantly provocative AI sidekick – this show explores what it really takes to drive change from the inside out. Are you a founder or social entrepreneur who’s gone all-in to challenge the status quo? Maybe with a few scars and stories to show for it? Or maybe you’re a marketing, brand, sustainability, or CSR leader at a big-name company trying to close the gap between good intentions and real impact, and finding it harder than it should be.  Perhaps you're a thought leader, expert, or author with powerful lived experience to share. Whoever you are, if you're grappling with how to do the right thing (and do things right), you're in the right place. We bring you candid conversations, bold ideas, and practical insights from people who are walking the talk (or trying their damnedest). And hey – if that sounds like you, Phil and Heidi would love to have you on the show. You can apply to be a guest at help@legacypodcasting.com. Be sure to follow the podcast so you never miss a new episode!

Episodes

  1. 04/12/2025

    Coffee and Convenience Shouldn’t Be This Hard | Amelia Landers

    People don’t want to “be sustainable”... and Starbucks learned that the hard way. In this episode of  It Shouldn’t Be This Hard, we learn from Amelia Landers, VP of Innovation at Starbucks, for a rare inside look at how one of the world’s most iconic brands is trying to close the intention–action gap for convenient -yet conscious- coffee.  For Starbucks, convenience is everything. Millions of people move through stores every day with deeply ingrained habits, emotional attachments, and morning rituals that are hard to change. Yet these same rituals are where some of the biggest opportunities for sustainable behavior change actually live. Amelia Landers unpacks what she’s learned designing sustainability inside a global retail ecosystem where speed, consistency, and emotional comfort often outrank environmental intent. From reusable cup systems to packaging innovation, she shares how Starbucks is navigating circularity, consumer psychology, and systems change in real time. This conversation is honest, practical, human — and required listening for anyone trying to make corporate sustainability work at scale. Key Takeaways: Why “being sustainable” doesn’t motivate customers — but “making their world better” does: Sustainability is a polarizing identity; personal impact is a universal motivator.How Starbucks is tackling the convenience vs. sustainability paradox: Behavior change happens when sustainable choices are just as easy, seamless, and convenient as the familiar ones.Reusable cups as behavior design — not just waste reduction: A small but passionate group of customers proved that ritual, identity, and emotional connection drive adoption.Why circularity requires collaboration, not competition: Infrastructure, regulation, and recycling systems can’t be solved by one brand alone — “there is no IP in sustainability.”Progress over perfection in corporate sustainability: Sustainable innovation demands humility, experimentation, and the courage to move without all the answers.How Starbucks uses data, customer insights, and waste tracking to measure real impact: Metrics matter — especially when they reinforce behavior change and customer engagement. Timestamps: 00:00 – Introduction 02:00 – Amelia’s path from brand building at P&G to sustainable innovation at Starbucks 06:00 – Entering sustainability naively and discovering the complexity of systems change 08:04 – The convenience paradox: why “easy” always wins (and what Starbucks is doing about it) 10:30 – Designing reusable cup programs and customer-driven packaging innovation 14:07 – The hard parts: regulation, infrastructure, and the limits of what one company can control 16:01 – EPR legislation and the messy reality of circularity 17:49 – Progress, not perfection: leadership lessons from Starbucks’ sustainability evolution 19:46 – Influence without authority: navigating internal tensions 25:37 – Why tracking matters: measuring waste, behavior change, and customer engagement 28:38 – How different customer groups perceive Starbucks’ sustainability work 29:51 – Amelia’s closing wisdom: “Action is the antidote to despair.” Additional Resources: 🤖 Meet Gaia, our sustainability AI: https://shorturl.at/zHp81 🌍 Get Grounded: https://shorturl.at/SXFdo  _ It Shouldn’t Be This Hard is the podcast for leaders, founders, and change-makers reimagining what good business looks like — real conversations, radical ideas, and the belief that purpose and profit can (and must) coexist.

    32 min

  2. 25/11/2025

    Making Earth Day Every Day Shouldn’t Be This Hard | Kathleen Rogers

    What happens the day after Earth Day? In this episode of It Shouldn’t Be This Hard, we sit down with Kathleen Rogers, President of EarthDay.org, the force behind one of the most iconic and enduring movements on the planet.  This episode is a masterclass in what it takes to accelerate a legacy climate movement that spans 192 countries and activates over a billion people every year. From our deep psychological resistance to change to the global rise of pollution, plastics, and political polarization, Kathleen reveals why progress remains so slow, even when the stakes couldn’t be higher. She shares how Earth Day evolved into a global hub for environmental action, why it’s become now an “unstoppable movement,” and why fear-based messaging backfires. Most importantly, she explains how protecting “what surrounds us” — the very definition of environment — can rewire how people connect with climate, community, and hope. Key Takeaways: “People love the status quo.” Human resistance to change (not science or technology) is one of the biggest barriers to environmental progress.Earth Day’s biggest challenge is the day after. Mobilizing a billion people is powerful but sustaining the momentum requires cultural and behavioral change. Climate change presents an opportunity to reinvent the world. Kathleen believes that there is an optimistic opportunity confronting us: we get to redesign our systems, economy, and future for the better. Timestamps: 00:00 – Kathleen’s surprising path: TV, law, Olympic committees, and the road to EarthDay.org 08:00 – The global paradox: growing awareness, but worsening pollution 09:42 – Earth Day’s evolution into a global movement 10:00 – The challenge of momentum: What happens after Earth Day? 12:27 – The importance of protecting what surrounds us 13:10 – The rise of plastic pollution and public concern 13:36 – The true cost of Climate Change? Who is hurt most? 16:39 – Renewable energy as an “unstoppable” force 17:08 – Turning global problems into business opportunities 18:56 – Why changing human behavior is the hardest part 19:52 – Closing reflections: hope, humanity, and the miracle of the natural world Additional Resources: 🤖 Meet Gaia, our sustainability AI: https://shorturl.at/wrkNR 🌍 Get Grounded: https://shorturl.at/2PZeI   _ It Shouldn’t Be This Hard is the podcast for leaders, founders, and change-makers reimagining what good business looks like — real conversations, radical ideas, and the belief that purpose and profit can (and must) coexist.

    23 min

  3. 17/11/2025

    A Future Without Cigarettes Shouldn’t Be This Hard | Jennifer Motles

    Can a company built on cigarettes build a future without them? In this episode of It Shouldn’t Be This Hard, we sit down with Jennifer Motles, Chief Sustainability Officer at Philip Morris International, to explore what it takes to transform one of the world’s most controversial industries from the inside out. Jennifer shares her experience leading ESG strategy within a global company undergoing an unprecedented shift — from selling cigarettes to building a smoke-free future. She unpacks the human and moral challenges of aligning business, purpose, and science in real time, and why sustainable transformation requires more than targets — it requires trust. From corporate accountability to systems change, this conversation dives into how business can evolve beyond compliance and start designing for regeneration. Key Takeaways: How Philip Morris International is navigating its transition toward a smoke-free future and the structural challenges that come with it.Why ESG needs to move beyond reporting and into strategy, leadership, and cultural transformation.The importance of moral courage and transparency in driving change within legacy industries.Why the future of sustainability lies in systems thinking, empathy, and long-term value creation. Timestamps: 00:00 – Introduction: What a “future without cigarettes” really means 05:00 – Jennifer’s path from public policy to corporate sustainability 08:39 – Rethinking ESG: moving from metrics to meaning 09:30 – The business case for transformation in legacy industries 11:02 – What does a smoke-free future look like? 13:08 – The tension between transparency and progress 13:30 – Systems thinking and redefining corporate responsibility 20:15 – Leadership lessons for the next era of sustainability 26:00 – Closing reflections: building trust in transformation Additional Resources: 🤖 Meet Gaia, our sustainability AI: https://shorturl.at/zHp81 🌍 Get Grounded: https://shorturl.at/SXFdo  _ It Shouldn’t Be This Hard is the podcast for leaders, founders, and change-makers reimagining what good business looks like — real conversations, radical ideas, and the belief that purpose and profit can (and must) coexist.

    31 min

  4. 23/10/2025

    Fair Price For Coffee Shouldn’t Be This Hard | Bob & Michelle Fish

    Brewing Change: How BIGGBY Coffee Is Using Regenerative Agriculture to Redefine Capitalism Coffee connects us all — but what if it could heal the planet too? In this episode of It Shouldn’t Be This Hard, we sit down with Bob and Michelle Fish, the co-founders of BIGGBY Coffee and One Bigg Island in Space (OBIIS), to explore how a beloved American coffee brand is leading a regenerative revolution—one farm, one partnership, and one community at a time. From growing BIGGBY Coffee into 450+ stores across the U.S. to transforming their entire global supply chain through farm-direct, regenerative agriculture, Bob and Michelle share how business can thrive within planetary limits—not despite them. They unpack the realities of climate change in coffee-growing regions, the urgent need for moral boundaries in capitalism, and why regeneration is a business imperative. Key Takeaways: How BIGGBY Coffee is working to source 100% of its beans through farm-direct regenerative agriculture by 2028.The philosophy behind “Capitalism with boundaries” and why it’s not philanthropy but survival.The story of One Bigg Island in Space and how it connects coffee drinkers directly to the farmers growing their beans.Why empathy, storytelling, and personal purpose are key to building sustainable companies.The role of climate change, community impact, and partnership in the future of coffee. Timestamps: 00:00 – Introduction to BIGGBY Coffee and One Bigg Island in Space 06:00 – The personal and professional partnership of Bob & Michelle Fish 10:00 – Building a Life You Love: BIGGBY’s people-first philosophy 13:51 – The reality of scaling a sustainable business 19:04 – The inspiration behind OBIIS and direct-to-farmer sourcing 24:23 – Simplicity in sustainability and the power of storytelling 26:48 – Capitalism with a conscience: profit within planetary limits 28:23 – Empathetic vs. sociopathic capitalism 35:00 – The flywheel of impact and building a regenerative future Additional Resources: 🌍 Get Grounded: https://shorturl.at/XFS5k 🤖 Meet Gaia, our sustainability AI: https://shorturl.at/6viH5 -- It Shouldn’t Be This Hard is the podcast for leaders, founders, and change-makers reimagining what good business looks like. Real conversations, radical ideas, and the occasional cup of coffee — grounded in the belief that purpose and profit can (and must) coexist.

    36 min

  5. 09/10/2025

    Universal Flourishing Shouldn’t Be This Hard | Karimah Hudda

    Rethinking Leadership for Universal Flourishing: Karimah Hudda on Systems Change, Courage, and Impact Leadership is hard. Leading with impact? Even harder. In this episode of It Shouldn’t Be This Hard, co-hosts Heidi Schoeneck and Phil White sit down with Karimah Hudda, Systems Change Catalyst and Founder of illumine.earth, to uncover how courageous, purpose-driven leadership can overcome the barriers built into today’s business systems. From Fairtrade farms to the boardrooms of Nike and Mondelēz, Karimah has spent 20+ years leading global transformation. She shares how to unlock human potential, navigate systemic resistance, and create lasting impact — all while redefining what leadership really means. In this episode, you’ll learn: Why courage and consciousness matter more than conformity in leadership.How to navigate corporate and systemic barriers that slow change.The difference between compliance-driven and purpose-driven leadership.Practical ways to drive impact across industries and continents.Why universal flourishing should be the ultimate goal of every leader. Key Takeaways & Timestamps: 00:00 – Introduction 03:00 – Karimah’s journey from India to global systems change 06:45 – Leading across agriculture, corporate, and nonprofit sectors 10:00 – Courage vs. conformity: the leadership mindset 13:30 – Unlocking universal flourishing in business 18:00 – Overcoming systemic resistance and barriers 22:15 – Actionable tips for impact-driven leaders 27:00 – Karimah’s one piece of advice for every changemaker Additional Resources: ✨ Get Grounded: https://bit.ly/3IYofhD 🔥 Meet Gaia, our sustainability AI: https://shorturl.at/VVdPS __ It Shouldn’t Be This Hard is the podcast for leaders, founders, and change-makers navigating the complexities of responsible business. Expert insights, practical strategies, and our resident AI Gaia make leading with impact feel a little less daunting — and a lot more inspiring.

    30 min

  6. 18/09/2025

    Cancel Culture in Climate | Jenny Morgan

    Cancel culture is holding us back from climate action. This week on It Shouldn’t Be This Hard, our co-hosts, Heidi Schoeneck and Phil White, speak to  Jenny Morgan, author of Cancel Culture and Climate, to understand how shame, purity tests, and the “angry activist” approach are slowing real progress and what we can do differently. Jenny reveals how empathy, curiosity, and forgiveness can create space for collaboration instead of division, and why celebrating “pretty good” steps may be the key to unlocking faster climate solutions. In this episode, you’ll learn: Why attacking brands often backfires and makes change harder.How cancel culture is creeping into the climate movement.The hidden role of projection bias in climate pledges and net zero goals.Why “perfect” is the enemy of progress and why “pretty good” matters.How to talk about climate justice without alienating people.Why curiosity is the most powerful tool for climate conversations.Jenny’s insights challenge us to move past shame and into solidarity. A mindset shift that could make all the difference in reversing climate change. Key Takeaways & Timestamps 00:00 – Introduction 03:00 – Why “pretty good” is good enough 05:45 – Net zero targets & projection bias 07:00 – Attacking brands vs. unlocking collaboration 10:00 – Cancel culture’s climate problem 13:00 – Climate inclusivity without shame 15:20 – Talking climate justice with empathy 20:00 – Empathy & accountability as change accelerators 23:00 – Jenny’s one piece of advice for every conversation Additional Resources Cancel Culture and Climate by Jenny Morgan is available now for purchase, learn more here: cancelcultureinclimate.com — ✨ Get Grounded: https://grounded.world/ 🔥 Meet Gaia, our sustainability AI: https://grounded.world/gaia/ — It Shouldn’t Be This Hard is a podcast for businesses striving to grow sustainably while navigating the complexities of doing good. With expert insights, real-world strategies, and our resident AI, Gaia, to answer your burning questions, we make building a successful, responsible business feel a little less daunting (and a lot more fun). Don’t forget to follow/subscribe so you never miss a new episode!

    26 min

  7. 11/09/2025

    Ending Plastic Pollution Shouldn’t Be This Hard | David Katz

    Welcome back to It Shouldn’t Be This Hard — the podcast where we dig into sustainability, purpose, and the messy, human side of making change… because the world desperately needs more of it. This week, our co-hosts Heidi Schoeneck and Phil White are joined by David Katz, CEO & Founder of Plastic Bank, the social fintech behind a global bottle deposit program that helps end poverty and stop plastic pollution. David brings raw honesty and unfiltered wisdom to the conversation, challenging us to rethink not only how we view plastic, but also how we define progress and prosperity. In this episode, David opens up about: Why inspiration without action is meaningless.The uncomfortable truth: big companies choose not to act, even when the path forward is obvious.The difference between profitability and prosperity and why prosperity creates exponential impact.Why he refuses to label plastic simply as “waste” or “garbage,” and what happens when we start seeing materials for their potential, not their disposal.His personal shift away from seeking external validation or accomplishments, and toward the deeper work of healing humanity and the planet.With a model built on dignity, purpose, and circularity, Plastic Bank is turning one of the world’s biggest problems into a pathway for prosperity. Tune in to hear one of the most provocative and inspiring conversations we’ve had yet and discover why ending plastic pollution shouldn’t be this hard. Key Takeaways Introduction (00:00) From inspiration to action (3:05) Why companies “choose not to act” (5:16) The challenge we all need to address (7:31) Profit vs. prosperity (10:33) Plastic Bank’s prosperity mindset (12:05) The hardest part of the journey (12:23) Letting go of validation (13:00) The deeper work of healing (16:22) Additional Resources ✨ Get Grounded: https://grounded.world/ 🔥 Meet Gaia, our sustainability AI: https://grounded.world/gaia/ — It Shouldn’t Be This Hard is a podcast for businesses striving to grow sustainably while navigating the complexities of doing good. With expert insights, real-world strategies, and our resident AI, Gaia, to answer your burning questions, we make building a successful, responsible business feel a little less daunting (and a lot more fun). Don’t forget to follow/subscribe so you never miss a new episode!

    22 min

  8. 21/08/2025

    Fighting Food Waste Shouldn’t Be This Hard | Hilary Keates

    Welcome back to It Shouldn’t Be This Hard — the podcast where we dig into sustainability, purpose, and the messy, human side of making change… because the world desperately needs more of it. In this episode, we’re joined by the brilliant Hilary Keates, who takes us on a journey from billion-dollar product launches at Gillette to reshaping the food system as Chief Marketing Officer of Divert. Along the way, she opens up about the pivotal career decisions that defined her path, the tough lessons she’s learned about boundaries and burnout, and why she believes fighting food waste shouldn’t be this hard. Hilary talks about what it was like to help launch Gillette Fusion — the fastest $1B product in P&G history — and why walking away from that kind of high-octane success to pursue sustainability was one of the best decisions she’s ever made. She takes us inside her work at Indigo Agriculture and now Divert, where the mission is keeping food out of landfills and turning “would-be” waste into impact. We get into the shocking numbers — like why one-third of all food in the U.S. is wasted, how that costs the average household $1,500 every year, and why food waste is actually a bigger driver of climate change than cars. Hilary also shares how major grocers are working with Divert to turn the tide on this issue. Hilary’s story is both inspiring and practical, full of real talk about what it takes to shift from shareholder to stakeholder capitalism, and how to find meaning in the work you do. Tune in to hear more about Hilary’s journey, the fight against food waste, and why this conversation is one of the most important ones we can be having right now. Key Takeaways: Introduction (00:00) Hilary’s beginnings (2:28) Pivotal career moments (4:15) Fighting food waste with Divert (9:00) The hardest part: boundaries (10:53) Small actions, big change (13:37) The shocking scale of food waste (15:45) Retail partnerships (16:50) Question for Gaia (18:44) Advice for sustainability leaders and final reflections (21:32) Additional Resources: ✨ Get Grounded: https://grounded.world/ 🔥 Meet Gaia, our sustainability AI: https://grounded.world/gaia/  — It Shouldn’t Be This Hard is a podcast for businesses striving to grow sustainably while navigating the complexities of doing good.  With expert insights, real-world strategies, and our resident AI, Gaia, to answer your burning questions, we make building a successful, responsible business feel a little less daunting (and a lot more fun). Don’t forget to follow/subscribe so you never miss a new episode!

    23 min

  9. 23/07/2025

    Journalism Shouldn’t Be This Hard | Kathy Baird Westfall

    Welcome to the VERY FIRST episode of It Shouldn’t Be This Hard, where we discuss all things sustainability… because the world ALWAYS needs more of it!  We’re excited to kick things off with a real conversation about career pivots, personal growth, the importance of ethical journalism, and why sometimes the best thing that can happen to you is also the most unexpected.  Meet Kathy Baird Westfall, our amazing guest for this inaugural episode, who's been through the ringer in her career and is now taking a step back to focus on what’s next. And by the way, she’s LOVING being unemployed for the first time since she was fourteen. Yep, you heard that right! Kathy takes us through her journey, from the whirlwind of agency life to transitioning into corporate at Nike, and how all of that shaped her views on leadership and the changing dynamics in the workplace.  She also gives us her thoughts on why DEI is still such a hot, polarizing topic today. (Spoiler alert: She’s got some strong opinions, and we’re here for it).  Along the way, Kathy talks about her love for lifelong learning and staying grounded in your values.  Finally, Kathy also discusses the importance of local journalism, why it’s under more threat than ever right now, and why news deserts are one of the greatest threats to our democracy right now. We’re not saying she’s got the secret sauce to life… but we’re kind of saying she does. Tune in now to learn more about Kathy’s journey, where she’s going, and how she sees the future of journalism. Key Takeaways:  Introduction (00:00) On being unemployed for the first time since age 14 (02:45) How getting recruited by Nike changed Kathy’s life (05:31) Kathy’s lifelong passion for learning and teaching (06:57) Transitioning from agency life to corporate culture (08:14) The challenges facing the press today (13:24) Helping people understand the information they need (18:19) What continues to frustrate Kathy (19:37)  Why DEI remains a contentious and polarizing issue (20:48) What skills will leaders need in the age of AI? (27:33) Additional Resources: ✨ Get Grounded: https://grounded.world/ 🔥 Meet Gaia, our sustainability AI: https://grounded.world/gaia/  — It Shouldn’t Be This Hard is a podcast for businesses striving to grow sustainably while navigating the complexities of doing good.  With expert insights, real-world strategies, and Gaia AI to answer your burning questions, we make building a successful, ethical business feel a little less daunting (and a lot more fun). Don’t forget to follow/subscribe so you never miss a new episode!

    31 min

  10. 23/06/2025

    Why Is It So Hard to Do the Right Things? (Trailer Episode)

    It feels like doing the right thing (and doing things right) has never been harder. Whether you're trying to build a mission-driven business, drive change inside a legacy company, or just stay true to your values while navigating messy realities… it shouldn’t be this hard. But it is. We are Phil and Heidi, and we’re the co-founders behind Grounded. We work with brands, retailers, nonprofits, and entrepreneurs around the world, and the same themes keep surfacing…  - fatigue - disconnect - frustration - and the growing gap between purpose and practice It Shouldn’t Be This Hard is our attempt to name it, explore it, and help make it just a little easier. This podcast is for anyone who’s been in the trenches. Social entrepreneurs, corporate insiders, impact leaders, and anyone trying (and often failing) to move the needle. Each episode brings real stories, candid conversations, and a healthy dose of humor. You’ll hear from guests doing the work, wrestling with the same questions you are, and occasionally put them on the spot with some provocative questions from Gaia, our AI sidekick. We’re not here to lecture. We’re here to listen, learn, and laugh through the hard stuff. Subscribe today so you never miss a new episode!

    9 min
  • 10 Episodes

About

The podcast that dives deep into the messy, meaningful work of responsible business and conscious leadership. Learn more at: grounded.world/itshouldntbethishard. Hosted by Phil White and Heidi Schoeneck, co-founders of Grounded – and joined by Gaia, their brilliantly provocative AI sidekick – this show explores what it really takes to drive change from the inside out. Are you a founder or social entrepreneur who’s gone all-in to challenge the status quo? Maybe with a few scars and stories to show for it? Or maybe you’re a marketing, brand, sustainability, or CSR leader at a big-name company trying to close the gap between good intentions and real impact, and finding it harder than it should be.  Perhaps you're a thought leader, expert, or author with powerful lived experience to share. Whoever you are, if you're grappling with how to do the right thing (and do things right), you're in the right place. We bring you candid conversations, bold ideas, and practical insights from people who are walking the talk (or trying their damnedest). And hey – if that sounds like you, Phil and Heidi would love to have you on the show. You can apply to be a guest at help@legacypodcasting.com. Be sure to follow the podcast so you never miss a new episode!

Information

  • Creator
    Phil White & Heidi Schoeneck
  • Years Active
    2K
  • Episodes
    10
  • Rating
    Clean
  • Copyright
    © All rights reserved.
  • Show Website
    It Shouldn't Be This Hard