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Two by Two

The Ken

The Two by Two podcast is a premium business podcast from The Ken that investigates, discusses and breaks down the most important business stories around you. Hosted from The Ken's newsroom by business journalists Rohin Dharmakumar and Praveen Gopal Krishnan, Two by Two will feature guests and experts from across the industry and academia to talk about issues no one else is talking about.

  1. 60 seconds for every 2025 episode

    6 DAYS AGO

    60 seconds for every 2025 episode

    As we try to wind down this year, Rohin and Praveen do something they’ve never done before: go through every single episode they recorded this year. All 48 of them. In 60 minutes. The rules were simple. Each host had 10 points to build their personal top 10 list for the year. No take-backs, and no pre-discussion. It was a completely live, vibe-based recording where they figured it out as they went. What follows is a rapid-fire sprint through the year. From Amazon India’s struggles to the electric car slowdown, from B-school placements to the rise of quick commerce dark stores, and from Razorpay versus Juspay to the chaos of concert infrastructure in India. They cover it all—the hits, the misses, the prescient calls, and the episodes they wish had gone differently. Along the way, they debate whether episodes were too speculative, too early, or just not memorable enough. By the end, they’re locked in a tight race with only five episodes left and one point each remaining. Because it wouldn't be Two by Two without a matrix, we plotted the results of their debate. Take a look at the graphic to see which episodes they both loved (the green zone) versus their personal favourites. It is chaotic, nostalgic, and a perfect preview of what 2025 looked like through the lens of Two by Two. ______ This episode was produced by Uddantika Kashyap and mixed and mastered by Rajiv CN, our resident sound engineer. With 48 episodes in the books, this is the perfect starting point for anyone looking to catch up on the defining business stories of 2025. If you liked this sprint through the year, please share it with someone who loves a good deep dive. Have your own "vibe-based" arguments about our list? We’re all ears. Reach out at twobytwo@the-ken.com or leave a comment.

    55 min
  2. QIP, IPO, Bubble. Why Swiggy, Zepto, and Blinkit see quick commerce differently

    11 DEC • THE KEN PREMIUM ONLY

    QIP, IPO, Bubble. Why Swiggy, Zepto, and Blinkit see quick commerce differently

    Swiggy just raised a billion dollars in its IPO last year. Now it needs another ₹10,000 crores. That's not a great sign. On Two by Two this week, hosts Praveen Gopal Krishnan and Rohin Dharmakumar try to make sense of the chaos in India's quick commerce space. Joining them are Ashwin Mehta ( https://www.linkedin.com/in/ashwin-mehta-b458a43/?originalSubdomain=in ), head of research at Ambit Capital, and Anand Kalyanaraman ( https://www.linkedin.com/in/anand-kalyanaraman-35685bb3/ ), finance editor at The Ken. Here's what happened: Zepto suddenly dropped all fees, forcing Swiggy to scramble and match. Blinkit's CEO is out there declaring the bubble could burst any day now, even though his company is comfortably winning. And everyone's burning cash like there's no tomorrow. The conversation breaks down why this sector is heading for trouble. They argue India can only support around 12,000 dark stores, and we're already at 70% of that. They discuss why Swiggy keeps reacting to what Zepto does instead of leading its own way. And here's a striking stat: the average quick commerce user spends ₹45,000 a year per household. That tells you exactly who this market is really for and why it might be more limited than everyone thinks. It's a messy race where nobody's backing down and the next 12 months will decide who survives. ________ This episode was produced by Uddantika Kashyap and mixed and mastered by Rajiv CN, our resident sound engineer. If you liked this episode of Two by Two, please share it with your friends, family and colleagues who would be interested in listening. And if you have more thoughts on the discussion, we'd love to hear your arguments as well. You can write to us at twobytwo@the-ken.com or comment below.

    1h 11m
  3. The bro-ification of business and tech podcasts

    4 DEC • THE KEN PREMIUM ONLY

    The bro-ification of business and tech podcasts

    "When you called me yesterday, I came up with eight different reasons to say no to you." That's Kosturi Ghosh ( https://www.linkedin.com/in/kosturi-ghosh-5727254/?originalSubdomain=in ), partner at Tri-Legal, explaining why she almost didn't show up for this podcast. It's a revealing admission and one that gets to the heart of why business and tech podcasts have such a lopsided gender problem. This week on Two by Two, hosts Praveen Gopal Krishnan and Rohin Dharmakumar do something uncomfortable: they examine their own track record. Joined by Kosturi and Swapnika Nag ( https://www.linkedin.com/in/swapnikanag/ ), co-founder and CEO of Periscope, they confront the fact that 95% of guests on Two by Two have been men. A recent USC Annenberg study found that business and tech podcasts have the worst gender split of any genre—92.3% male guests. The conversation explores why this happens, from relying on existing networks and the challenges of cold outreach, to the fact that women are held to different standards when speaking publicly. They also debate whether this is even a problem worth solving, given that the representation issue starts much earlier—in boardrooms, founder circles, and senior leadership positions. The group discusses what can be done differently: building trust over time and being more intentional about guest planning. They also touch on imposter syndrome and why men seem more comfortable winging it. It's a moment of self-reflection with no easy answers, but plenty of ideas on how to do better in 2026. _______ Additional readings: USC Annenberg Inclusion Initiative (November 2025) ( https://annenberg.usc.edu/news/research-and-impact/usc-annenberg-releases-new-study-exploring-gender-and-raceethnicity-hosts ) Accidental Feminism: Gender Parity and Selective Mobility among India’s Professional Elite by Swethaa S. Ballakrishnen ( https://press.princeton.edu/books/paperback/9780691182537/accidental-feminism?srsltid=AfmBOoof1do-KDmALM82CkfFfxvchS0corsUG_rhoW2YWMY0YAHcpxvT )_______ This episode was produced by Uddantika Kashyap and mixed and mastered by Rajiv CN, our resident sound engineer. If you liked this episode of Two by Two, please share it with your friends, family and colleagues who would be interested in listening. And if you have more thoughts on the discussion, we'd love to hear your arguments as well. You can write to us at twobytwo@the-ken.com or comment below.

    1h 7m
  4. Meesho has come a long way. How much farther will it go?

    27 NOV • THE KEN PREMIUM ONLY

    Meesho has come a long way. How much farther will it go?

    This week on Two by Two, hosts Praveen Gopal Krishnan and Rohin Dharmakumar dissect Meesho's strategy with Adarsh Menon ( https://www.linkedin.com/in/adarsh-menon-8a35652/?originalSubdomain=in ) (partner at Fireside Ventures and former head of Shopsy at Flipkart) and Ganesh Nagasekar ( https://www.linkedin.com/in/ganeshnagarsekar/?originalSubdomain=in ) (founder of GSN Invest). Fresh off filing its DRHP, Meesho has gotten here by doing everything differently. Zero commission when competitors charged fees. Optimizing for cost when others raced for speed. Building a logistics arm that slashed delivery costs. All while serving 210 million middle-class customers that Flipkart and Amazon had largely ignored. The conversation explores what actually sets Meesho apart—is it the data science powering three-quarters of its orders, the seller economics that let merchants triple revenue in a year, or something else? And more importantly, where does it go from here? The group debates whether Meesho should push deeper into logistics, experiment with content commerce, or solve the cash-on-delivery mess that's creating hidden costs across the business. Sections: 1. What makes Meesho different? 2. The zero commission bet 3. Valmo: Building a logistics business from scratch 4. Where it goes next 5. Meesho as India's Walmart This episode was produced by Uddantika Kashyap and mixed and mastered by Rajiv CN, our resident sound engineer. If you liked this episode of Two by Two, please share it with your friends, family and colleagues who would be interested in listening. And if you have more thoughts on the discussion, we'd love to hear your arguments as well. You can write to us at twobytwo@the-ken.com or comment below.

    1h 25m
  5. The numbers behind OpenAI and Perplexity’s deals with Jio and Airtel

    20 NOV • THE KEN PREMIUM ONLY

    The numbers behind OpenAI and Perplexity’s deals with Jio and Airtel

    This week, Two by Two debuts a new format: "Reverse engineering the playbook." Hosts Rohin Dharmakumar and Praveen Gopal Krishnan attempt to crack the math behind this recent wave of AI-telco partnerships in India. Why are companies like Perplexity, Google, and OpenAI racing to bundle their expensive premium subscriptions with Airtel, Jio, and Phonepe? To decode the economics, they are joined by two industry experts with firsthand experience managing these exact types of deals: Chandrashekhar Vattikuti ( https://www.linkedin.com/in/vattikuti/?originalSubdomain=in ) (ex-CPO of Inmobi and SVP of their Telco Cloud business) and Prakash Deep Maheshwari ( https://www.linkedin.com/in/prakashdeepmaheshwari/ ) (head of product at Grab and former director of growth for Netflix in India and Southeast Asia). The group explores whether Indian telcos are desperate for differentiation or simply cashing in on a gold rush where the smartest move is to sell shovels–or in this case, subscribers. Prakash argues this is a classic Prisoner’s Dilemma: once one telco bundles an AI service, the others have no choice but to follow. They also break down the actual structure of these deals, from minimum guarantees to the marketing halo the partnerships create. The conversation gets into why OpenAI likely entered these deals "kicking and screaming" to protect its platform ambitions, while Chandra offers a reality check on whether these massive user numbers will actually stick around once the free periods end._____________ Episodes referenced in the conversation: 1. ‘Do we even need product managers?’ ( https://the-ken.com/podcasts/two-by-two/do-we-even-need-product-managers/ )- Two by Two episode 13 with Chandrashekhar Vattikuti 2. ‘Threat models, using taste to defend margins, ChatGPT’s ‘collab’ with Phonepe ( https://the-ken.com/podcasts/zero-shot/threat-models-using-taste-to-defend-margins-chatgpts-collab-with-phonepe/ )’- Zero Shot episode 9 Sections: 00:00 – The ‘Reverse engineering’ experiment 04:36 – Are telcos becoming just dumb pipes? 13:14 – The gold rush for subscribers 29:51 – How these deals are actually structured 47:38 – Why OpenAI resisted these partnerships 58:09 – Will users actually stick around? _____________ This episode was produced by Uddantika Kashyap and mixed and mastered by Rajiv CN, our resident sound engineer. If you liked this episode of Two by Two, please share it with your friends, family and colleagues who would be interested in listening. And if you have more thoughts on the discussion, we’d love to hear your arguments as well. You can write to us at twobytwo@the-ken.com ( twobytwo@the-ken.com ) or comment below.

    1h 26m
  6. What will bring ambition back from the dead?

    13 NOV

    What will bring ambition back from the dead?

    The popular narrative often blames Gen Z for a lack of ambition, but is it the millennials who are truly suffering from “ambition fatigue”? This week on Two by Two, the conversation takes its lead from The Ken’s deputy editor, Arundhati Ramanathan’s recent and concerning article, “Indian Tech Companies are Spawning an Ambitionless Generation”. Hosts Rohin Dharmakumar and Praveen Gopal Krishnan sit down to discuss how to solve this cross-generational problem and bring the “fire back in the belly”, with or without burning the midnight lamp.  They explore the striking ambition gap between driven founders/CEOs and their often-indifferent employees. Is this growing apathy a fault of the corporate environment and a lack of opportunity, or is the responsibility for finding purpose solely on the individual? Can the corporate world reignite ambition, and can it truly rise from the dead? Joining the hosts to tackle this multifold issue are three experts: Gaston Schmitz  Gaston is a partner/executive and founder coach at the Asian Leadership Institute, guiding senior executives at Fortune 500 companies and high-growth startup founders across 30+ countries. With over 20,000 hours of experience, he employs a personalised approach rooted in mindfulness and neuroscience to help leaders expand their perspective and identify blind spots.  Vipul Nanda Vipul is the director of product marketing at Databahn. His professional history includes significant roles at major fintech platforms, including a tenure as director of product marketing at Cashfree Payments and product marketing manager at Razorpay. Additionally, Nanda is the co-founder of the GoPMM community for product marketers in India and holds an advisory position with Antler. Arundhati Ramanathan Arundhati is the deputy editor at The Ken. Based in Bengaluru, she is a seasoned journalist who focuses on in-depth, long-form stories about India's startup ecosystem, entrepreneurship, and the fintech industry. Her work often explores the significant trends and challenges impacting the tech landscape, such as venture capital, founder strategies, and shifts in workforce dynamics. ----Additional reading: ‘Indian Tech Companies are Spawning an Ambitionless Generation’ by Arundhati Ramanathanhttps://the-ken.com/story/indian-tech-companies-are-spawning-an-ambitionless-generation/?t=251112092335 Last episode Gaston was in- ‘Where AI can and can’t replace human coaching’https://the-ken.com/podcasts/two-by-two/where-ai-can-and-cant-replace-human-coaching/ Warren Buffet’s shareholder lettershttps://www.berkshirehathaway.com/letters/letters.html Marshall Goldsmith’s 6 daily questionshttps://www.marshallgoldsmith.com/post/six-daily-questions The Three Signs of a Miserable Job: A Fable for Managers by Patrick Lencionihttps://www.goodreads.com/book/show/749937.The_Three_Signs_of_a_Miserable_Job Finite and Infinite Games by James P. Carsehttps://www.goodreads.com/book/show/189989.Finite_and_Infinite_Games ----  This episode was mixed and mastered by Rajiv CN, our resident sound engineer. If you liked this episode of Two by Two, please share it with your friends, family and colleagues who would be interested in listening. And if you have more thoughts on the discussion, we’d love to hear your arguments as well. You can write to us at twobytwo@the-ken.com.

    1h 19m
  7. The great big Indian IPO

    6 NOV

    The great big Indian IPO

    What is the “listing pop” that everyone is chasing, and does it still matter six months later? This simple question is the starting point for a deep look into the current boom in the Indian Initial Public Offering (IPO) market. Despite a massive influx of investor wealth, the standards for companies going public have significantly dropped.  In this episode of Two by Two, co-hosts Rohin Dharmakumar and Praveen Gopal Krishnan are joined by their colleagues, The Ken’s finance editor, Anand Kalyanaraman, and deputy editor, Seetharaman G to explore how the initial “IPO event” relates to a company’s long-term performance. They discuss how high valuations from private investors are merely being validated at the public listing. They also examine the rise of “flipping”—the practice of quickly selling IPO shares for a profit—a tactic now accepted by many large institutions as just part of “the game”.  The episode of Two by Two was mixed and mastered by Rajiv CN, our resident sound engineer. If you liked this episode of Two by Two, please share it with your friends, colleagues, and anyone else who might be interested. And if you have thoughts on the discussion, particularly what IPO companies did we miss out on that you know are living happily ever after, write to us at twobytwo@the-ken.com. We’d love to hear from you.

    58 min
  8. How do we reimagine hospitals from scratch?

    30 OCT

    How do we reimagine hospitals from scratch?

    What’s the dumbest thing about hospitals that we still tolerate in 2025? This simple question kicks off a deep dive into the broken core of the Indian healthcare system. From confusing X-ray pricing and misaligned incentives that prioritise “sick-care” over healthcare, to the irritating experience of endless queues and fragmented records, the problems are deeply entrenched in the system.  In this episode of Two by Two, co-hosts Praveen Gopal Krishnan and Rohin Dharmakumar talk to two founders who are not just trying to patch the system, but rebuild it from the ground up. Varun Dubey of Superhealth and Mayank Banerjee of Even Healthcare are both creating smaller, hyperlocal, and experience-focused hospitals. They break down how they’re unbundling the bloated cost structures of traditional hospitals, redesigning the patient journey, and realigning incentives by putting doctors on full-time salaries with ESOPs.  The conversation explores the difficulty of disrupting the current healthcare system and the challenges of scaling innovative models that prioritise patient well-being and affordability.  This episode of Two by Two was mixed and mastered by Rajiv CN, our resident sound engineer. If you liked this episode of Two by Two, please share it with your friends, colleagues, and anyone else who might be interested. And if you have thoughts on the discussion, write to us at twobytwo@the-ken.com. We’d love to hear from you.

    1h 28m
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The Two by Two podcast is a premium business podcast from The Ken that investigates, discusses and breaks down the most important business stories around you. Hosted from The Ken's newsroom by business journalists Rohin Dharmakumar and Praveen Gopal Krishnan, Two by Two will feature guests and experts from across the industry and academia to talk about issues no one else is talking about.

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