Product Thinking

Melissa Perri

Successful product management isn’t just about training the product managers who work side by side with developers everyday to build better products. It’s about taking a step back, approaching the systems within organizations as a whole, and leveling up product leadership to improve these systems. This is the Product Thinking Podcast, where Melissa Perri will connect with industry leading experts in the product management space, AND answer your most pressing questions about everything product. Join us each week to level up your skillset and invest in yourself as a product leader.

  1. 2 DAYS AGO

    Episode 269: Continuous Discovery Habits That Actually Work

    Continuous discovery sounds simple and breaks down constantly in practice. In this compilation episode of the Product Thinking Podcast, Melissa Perri brings together three perspectives on what it actually takes to build the habit and why slowing down on discovery is still the fastest path to shipping the right thing. Teresa Torres, author of Continuous Discovery Habits, breaks down the structure underneath every method: outcome, opportunity, and solution. Teams doing this right never have to stop and replan. Christina Wodtke, lecturer at Stanford and formerly at Zynga, follows with the weekly playtesting rhythm she now teaches. Julia Austin, former senior lecturer at Harvard Business School, closes the episode by pushing back on the temptation to skip discovery in the age of AI. Her 80/20 rule: spend most of your time on foundation work, because the false security AI offers cannot replace real conversations with real customers. You'll hear us talk about: The structure underneath every discovery methodTeresa Torres walks through the three-part backbone of all discovery work: outcome, opportunity, and solution. She explains why teams doing this right never have to stop and replan: the next roadmap item emerges from ongoing customer conversations, not annual planning exercises. Building a weekly testing rhythm that sticksChristina Wodtke describes the weekly playtesting rhythm she carried from Zynga into her Stanford classes. She also walks through the scaffolded path from solo testing to designers, friends and family, and finally strangers, so teams build the muscle without exposing rough work too soon. Going slow on discovery in the age of AIJulia Austin makes the case for spending 80% of your time on foundation work and discovery before building anything. She explains why the temptation to skip this step in the age of AI is a trap, and why products that fail and get blamed on marketing usually failed in discovery first. Episode resources: Try Granola today: http://granola.ai/productinstitute (Use the code PRODUCTINSTITUTE to get 3 months free) Check our courses: https://productinstitute.com/ Episode 30: Understanding Continuous Discovery With Teresa Torreshttps://www.produxlabs.com/product-thinking-blog/episode-30-teresa-torres Episode 226: Why Every Product Team Needs a Playtesting Mindset with Christina Wodtkehttps://www.produxlabs.com/product-thinking-blog/episode-226-christina-wotdke-game-design Episode 231: Laying the Groundwork for Startup Success with Julia Austinhttps://www.produxlabs.com/product-thinking-blog/episode-231-julia-austin-startup-success-idea Teresa Torres on LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/teresatorres/ Christina Wodtke on LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/christinawodtke/ Julia Austin on LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/juliaaustin/

    15 min

  2. 6 MAY

    Episode 268: Rethinking What Done Means in Product Ops

    What does it mean for a product to actually be “done”? Not code in production, but customers buying, using, and loving it. In this compilation episode of the Product Thinking Podcast, Melissa Perri brings together three product leaders to explore the systems that make whole product launches consistent. Trisha Price, then Chief Product Officer at Pendo, argues for shifting the team's definition of done from "code complete" to "whole product complete." She reframes product marketing as a strategic voice in discovery, not a translation layer at launch, and shares how cadences keep the work moving. Kate Towsey, an independent research ops advisor with experience at BBC and Atlassian, frames organizational knowledge as water that needs a dam to stop it leaking away. Jessica Soroky, then Senior Director of Product Operations at Pendo, closes with what whole product launch and cadences look like in practice. You'll hear us talk about: Whole product complete, not just code completeTrisha Price on shifting the definition of done from "code shipped" to "customers using and loving the product." She explains why a feature isn't done until product marketing, support, sales enablement, and go-to-market are aligned, and how product ops orchestrates the launch. Knowledge as a managed assetKate Towsey on why organizations claim knowledge is their most valuable asset but let it leak through tributaries no one is mapping. She lays out how research ops, product ops, and design ops can work as one system for capturing and reusing what teams learn. Cadences that keep product orgs alignedJessica Soroky on the operating cadences that make whole product launches predictable. She walks through Pendo's six-week product impact meetings, monthly roadmap reviews, and weekly leadership data rituals that reduce surprises and keep strategy connected to customer behavior. Episode resources: Check our courses: https://productinstitute.com/ Try Granola today: http://granola.ai/productinstitute (Use the code PRODUCTINSTITUTE to get 3 months free) Episode 184: Building Products for Product Managers with Trisha Pricehttps://www.produxlabs.com/product-thinking-blog/2024/8/14/episode-184-building-products-for-product-managers-with-trisha-price?rq=trisha Price Episode 208: Scaling Research Ops to Drive Organizational Change with Kate Towseyhttps://www.produxlabs.com/product-thinking-blog/episode-208-kate-towsey-research-ops?rq=Kate Towsey Episode 217: Behind the Scenes of Pendo's Product Operations Evolution with Jessica Sorokyhttps://www.produxlabs.com/product-thinking-blog/episode-217-jessica-soroky-pendo-product-operations?rq=Jessica Soroky Trisha Price on LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/trisha-price-3063081/ Kate Towsey on LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/katetowsey/ Jessica Soroky on LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/jessicasoroky/

    25 min

  3. 22 APR

    Episode 267: How OKRs Become Outputs Instead of Outcomes

    OKRs are one of the most misunderstood frameworks in product. They turn into renamed roadmaps, copy-paste cascades, and measures of output instead of real outcomes. In this Product Thinking Podcast compilation, Melissa Perri brings together four leaders who share what it takes to make OKRs actually work. Hugo Froes, then head of product operations at OLX, shares how splitting OKRs into discovery, build, and outcome types gives teams a more honest way to track progress without losing sight of what needs to ship. Jeff Gothelf and Josh Seiden of Sense & Respond Learning explain why key results must measure behavior change and why cascading OKRs is critical thinking, not copy-paste. Anish Bhimani, then CPO at JPMorgan Chase Commercial Banking, shares how his org went from 341 key results to the handful that actually move the business. You'll hear us talk about: Rethinking how OKR types workHugo Froes explains how OLX broke OKRs into discovery, build, and outcome types so teams could stay flexible without losing sight of what actually ships. The approach creates space for parallel tracks of discovery, build, and launch, instead of waiting a quarter to see any progress. What makes a key result actually meaningfulJeff Gothelf and Josh Seiden argue that a key result must measure behavior change, not a feature or launch date. If you can rename your existing roadmap as an OKR without changing anything, the goal is wrong. Cascading OKRs is a critical thinking exercise, not copy-paste. Finding the difference makers inside a huge orgAnish Bhimani shares what happened when he asked his JPMorgan Chase team to map their key results and got 341. Getting down to about 40 real difference makers is what made the framework drive focus. Lead with customer experience, and operational efficiency follows. Episode resources: Try Granola today: http://granola.ai/productinstitute Check our courses: https://productinstitute.com/ Episode 216: Getting OKRs Right: Planning with Impact at OLX with Hugo Froeshttps://www.produxlabs.com/product-thinking-blog/episode-216-hugo-froes-okrs-product-operations Episode 156: OKRs for Focus and Alignment with Jeff Gothelf of Gothelf.co & Josh Seiden of Seiden Consultinghttps://www.produxlabs.com/product-thinking-blog/2024/1/31/episode-156-okrs-for-focus-and-alignment-with-jeff-gothelf-of-gothelfco-amp-josh-seiden-of-seiden-consulting Episode 144: Banking 2.0 or How to Drive Change and Scale in Financial Organizations with Anish Bhimanihttps://www.produxlabs.com/product-thinking-blog/2023/11/8/episode-144-banking-20-or-how-to-drive-change-and-scale-in-financial-organizations-with-anish-bhimani-managing-director-and-chief-product-officer-at-jpmorgan-chase-commercial-banking Hugo Froes on LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/hugofroes/ Jeff Gothelf on LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/gothelf/ Josh Seiden on LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/jseiden/ Anish Bhimani on LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/anishbhimani/

    20 min

  4. 8 APR

    Episode 266: Building for Builders

    What does it take to keep product teams focused on meaningful work? In this compilation episode, Melissa Perri brings together three product leaders to explore how to cut through overhead, dig into real problems, and resist the pull of shiny technology. Nan Yu, Head of Product at Linear, shares how clunky tools burden PMs with admin work and how his team uncovers real problems behind feature requests. Andrew Davidson, SVP of Product at MongoDB, explains what makes developers a uniquely demanding audience to build for. Jody Bailey, CPTO at Stack Overflow, reflects on what went wrong when companies rushed to ship AI without solving real user problems. Together, these leaders show that great product work starts with understanding real people in real moments. You'll hear us talk about: Reducing PM administrative overheadNan Yu explains how poorly designed tools push admin work onto PMs. When engineering tools are too clunky, developers disengage and PMs end up doing data entry instead of talking to customers. Speed and directness in tooling keep teams focused on real value. Uncovering real problems behind feature requestsNan shares Linear's approach: anchor every request in a specific moment. His team asks customers when they last felt the need for a feature and what actually happened. This often reveals that the real problem differs from the original ask. Staying problem-focused in the rush to adopt AIJody Bailey describes the rush companies felt when generative AI emerged and the mistake of shipping AI solutions before identifying real problems. He shares how Stack Overflow is refocusing on core strengths and expanding who it serves. Episode resources: Try Granola today: http://granola.ai/productinstitute Check our courses: https://productinstitute.com/ Episode 233: How Linear Builds Tools Developers Actually Want with Nan Yu https://www.produxlabs.com/product-thinking-blog/episode-233-linear-ai-nan-yu Episode 209: From Databases to Developer Platforms: The MongoDB Story with Andrew Davidson https://www.produxlabs.com/product-thinking-blog/episode-209-andrew-davidson-databases-platforms Episode 239: Navigating the AI Shift at Stack Overflow with Jody Bailey https://www.produxlabs.com/product-thinking-blog/episode-239-stack-overflow-ai Jody Bailey on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jodybailey/ Nan Yu on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/thenanyu/ Andrew Davidson on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/andrewad/

    16 min

  5. 25 MAR

    Episode 265: How Marketplace Teams Decide What to Build

    Creating great product organizations takes more than setting roadmaps. It requires clear priorities, shared decision-making, and a strong sense of what makes the business uniquely valuable. In this episode, Melissa Perri brings together insights from three product leaders on how teams can create focus, alignment, and clarity as they scale. You’ll hear from Kristin Dorsett, Chief Product Officer at Viator at the time, on balancing top-down priorities with bottom-up autonomy and why doing fewer things at once leads to more meaningful progress. Craig Saldanha, Chief Product Officer at Yelp, explains how explicit product principles help teams make better decisions and stay aligned, especially in a two-sided marketplace. Mauricio Monico reflects on lessons from eBay and Wish, including the risks of copying competitors, the importance of explaining strategy clearly across the organization, and why turnarounds often begin by fixing marketplace fundamentals before chasing growth. Together, these perspectives offer a practical look at how product leaders create alignment without losing adaptability. You’ll hear us talk about: Balancing strategy and team autonomyKristin Dorsett explains how her organization combines top-down company priorities with team-level ownership. Some teams are aligned to a small number of company-wide big bets, while others are given lightweight charters and room to define their own roadmap. The conversation shows how strategic direction and local autonomy can work together when expectations are clear. Why doing fewer things leads to better outcomesA major theme in Kristin’s segment is the discipline of focus. She describes the company’s evolution from trying to pursue dozens of major initiatives at once to narrowing that list down to just three. The result was stronger alignment across departments and better progress on the work that mattered most. Product principles and marketplace decision-makingCraig Saldanha shares how Yelp codified its product culture into a set of decision-making tenets. He discusses how those principles help teams handle trade-offs, move faster on reversible decisions, and stay thoughtful on harder-to-reverse choices. He also explains how Yelp thinks about marketplace dynamics, consumer and business needs, and the flywheel that drives sustainable growth. Why companies lose their way when they copy competitorsMauricio Monico reflects on how eBay struggled when it tried to imitate Amazon instead of leaning into its own value proposition. He also walks through Wish’s turnaround, where the initial focus was not growth but restoring marketplace health through better merchant standards, product quality, and delivery performance. His examples show why clarity, differentiation, and strong fundamentals matter more than reactive strategy. Episode resources: Try Granola today: http://granola.ai/productinstitute Check our courses: https://productinstitute.com/ Episode 221: Balancing Strategy and Execution at Scale with Kristin Dorsett:https://www.produxlabs.com/product-thinking-blog/episode-221-kristin-viator-strategy-experimentation Episode 162: Product Roadmap: Building a Platform for the Next Decade with Craig Saldanha, Chief Product Officer at Yelp:https://www.produxlabs.com/product-thinking-blog/2024/3/13/episode-162-product-roadmap-building-a-platform-for-the-next-decade-with-craig-saldanha-chief-product-officer-at-yelp Episode 158: Turning the Tide with Mauricio Monico’s Lessons from eBay, Facebook, and Google:https://www.produxlabs.com/product-thinking-blog/2024/2/14/episode-158-turning-the-tide-with-mauricio-monicos-lessons-from-ebay-facebook-and-google Kristin Dorsett on LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/kristindorsett/ Craig Saldanha on LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/craigsaldanha/ Mauricio Monico on LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/mspmonico/

    30 min

  6. 11 MAR

    Episode 264: Product at Scale Inside the World’s Largest Financial Institutions

    This episode explores what it takes to build great products inside large financial institutions where product teams must balance modernization, legacy systems, scale, and regulation. Through conversations with leaders from Vanguard, Chase, and Affirm, Melissa Perri highlights how strong product organizations connect strategy, operating models, and customer outcomes. Marco De Freitas and Amber Brestowski from Vanguard share lessons from digital transformation, including why transformation is ultimately about people, culture, and clarity of outcomes rather than technology alone. They explain how Vanguard ties modernization to its mission by improving client experience in ways that help investors make better long-term decisions. Jameson Troutman, Head of Product for Small Business at Chase, discusses how large organizations can move from funding projects to funding product capacity so teams can continuously prioritize and deliver outcomes. The episode closes with Vishal Kapoor, Senior VP of Product Management at Affirm, who explains how fintech teams can work with legal and compliance as embedded partners instead of blockers. Across all three conversations, the episode offers a practical view of how product leaders can build judgment, align teams to strategy, and create systems that support responsible innovation in regulated environments. You’ll hear us talk about: Digital transformation lessonsVanguard’s perspective makes it clear that successful transformation is not mainly about replacing technology. It depends on culture, talent, operating model changes, and a clear set of goals that teams can return to over time. The conversation also stresses the importance of communicating progress and showing wins throughout long-running transformation efforts. Client experience as strategyThe episode explores how client experience can become a direct expression of company mission. At Vanguard, modernization is framed not just as a design or usability effort, but as a way to help investors make smarter decisions through better defaults, guidance, and insight-rich experiences. Funding products instead of projectsJameson Troutman explains why large organizations need to shift from budgeting individual initiatives to funding product capacity across domains. That change gives teams more ownership and stability while still allowing leadership to manage the portfolio and rebalance where needed. The discussion also connects this funding model to stronger judgment, better prioritization, and faster delivery. Compliance as a product partnerVishal Kapoor describes how Affirm integrates legal and compliance directly into product development so teams can address constraints early and build responsibly at scale. The conversation also covers the role of weekly product reviews, strong metrics, and close cross-functional decision making in fintech environments where risk and trust matter. Episode resources: Try Granola today: http://granola.ai/productinstitute Episode 213: How Vanguard is Modernizing Finance Through Digital Innovation with Marco De Freitas and Amber Brestowski: https://www.produxlabs.com/product-thinking-blog/episode-213-vanguard-corporate-innovation?rq=marco Episode 232: The Art and Science of Product Decisions with Jameson Troutman: https://www.produxlabs.com/product-thinking-blog/episode-232-jameson-troutman-chase-business?rq=jameson Episode 196: The Affirm Card: Transforming Payment Flexibility with Vishal Kapoor: https://www.produxlabs.com/product-thinking-blog/2024/11/6/episode-196-the-affirm-card-transforming-payment-flexibility-with-vishal-kapoor?rq=vishal Marco De Freitas on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/marco-de-freitas-80416714/ Amber Brestowski on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/amber-brestowski-019b56ab/ Jameson Troutman on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jameson-troutman/ Vishal Kapoor on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/vkapoor/ Check our courses: https://productinstitute.com/

    30 min

  7. 25 FEB

    Episode 263: From Product Leader to CEO

    Creating great products at scale means widening your lens beyond roadmaps and features and learning how to run the business around the product. In this compilation episode, Melissa Perri pulls together three perspectives on what it takes for product leaders to operate at the next level: stepping into broader executive responsibility, building real ownership in teams, and making product decisions like disciplined investments. You’ll hear from Mercedes Chatfield Taylor on the most common paths to the CEO seat and what product leaders need to build that credibility, from board communication to revenue leadership and a more holistic operational view. Mercedes emphasizes succession planning and proactively taking on cross-functional responsibilities as the fastest way to expand scope and readiness. Sean Kim shares what true product empowerment looks like from environments like Amazon and TikTok, where PMs are given a metric to move and expected to negotiate resources, set plans, and own outcomes without being told what to build. Fabrice des Mazery closes by reframing product leadership as investment decision-making, focusing teams and stakeholders on risk, ROI, payback, and treating partners across the business as co-investors with skin in the game. You’ll hear us talk about: The product leader path to CEO Mercedes Chatfield Taylor breaks down three common CEO trajectories and what tends to hold product leaders back. The conversation focuses on closing gaps like board-level communication, leading across revenue and finance, and proving you can operate beyond product by taking more off peers’ plates and building succession behind you. What empowerment actually means in practice Sean Kim describes a model where product teams are held accountable to clear business metrics and given autonomy to define the problem set, craft the plan, and execute. He explains how negotiation around headcount, timelines, and trade-offs becomes part of the job, and why learning from bets that do not work is expected rather than punished. Running product like an investment portfolio Fabrice des Mazery argues that product leaders should translate work into investment language stakeholders already understand: risk, cost, margin, ROI, and payback. He connects time to money, pushes for proving causation, and outlines portfolio thinking that balances strategic investments, low-risk returns, micro-optimizations, and a small set of higher-uncertainty bets. Turning stakeholders into co-investors Instead of debating features, Fabrice recommends surfacing risk transparently and asking stakeholders to commit resources and go-to-market support alongside product delivery. The goal is shared accountability, clearer trade-offs, and decision-making that feels like investing together rather than placing orders with a delivery team. Episode resources: Try Granola today: http://granola.ai/productinstitute Check our courses: https://productinstitute.com/ Episode 194: From Product Leader to CEO with Mercedes Chatfield-Taylor:https://www.produxlabs.com/product-thinking-blog/2024/10/23/episode-194-from-product-leader-to-ceo-with-mercedes-chatfield-taylor Episode 193: Navigating Hyper-Growth with Sean Solme Kim (Former Head of Product at TikTok and Amazon Prime):https://www.produxlabs.com/product-thinking-blog/2024/10/16/episode-193-navigating-hyper-growth-with-sean-solme-kim-former-head-of-product-at-tiktok-and-amazon-prime Episode 202: Transforming Product Teams into Investment Partners with Fabrice des Mazery:https://www.produxlabs.com/product-thinking-blog/2024/12/18/episode-202-transforming-product-teams-into-investment-partners-with-fabrice-des-mazery Mercedes Chatfield-Taylor on LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/mchatfieldtaylor/ Sean Solme Kim on LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/seankim/ Fabrice des Mazery on LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/productroi/

    30 min

  8. 11 FEB

    Episode 262: Organizing Product Teams Around Value

    Creating strong product organizations means aligning teams around outcomes, not outputs, and designing systems that enable learning at speed. In this episode, Melissa Perri brings together insights from multiple product leaders to explore what it takes to anchor on business outcomes, structure teams around value, and build the psychological safety required to learn through experimentation. You’ll hear from Jose Quesada, VP of Product Management for Mobile and Web at American Express, on why timing matters in transformation, how starting with outcomes changes decision making, and how experimentation only works when teams feel safe to fail. Melissa then expands on how organizing teams around value streams rather than architecture creates better incentives and clearer ownership as organizations scale. The episode also features Matthew Skelton, co-author of Team Topologies, who connects product thinking with team design, product operations, and enabling teams. Together, these perspectives highlight how structure, governance, and capability building must evolve together if product organizations want to move faster without sacrificing quality or trust. You’ll hear us talk about: Starting with outcomes instead of solutionsThe discussion explores why leading with vision and desired outcomes creates better alignment than jumping straight to features or roadmaps, and how focusing on what not to do is just as important as deciding what to build.Psychological safety and learning through experimentsJose Quesada explains why teams need permission to run experiments that fail, how mistakes build product intuition, and why softer skills matter more than perfect execution in uncertain environments.Organizing teams around value streamsMelissa Perri breaks down how value streams become the foundation for product team design, covering ownership, reporting lines, and why organizing around architecture often leads to busy work instead of customer impact.Enabling teams and product operations at scaleMatthew Skelton and Melissa discuss how enabling teams, product operations, and Team Topologies help large organizations manage cognitive load, place expertise effectively, and support long-term product strategy. Episode resources: Episode 230: Structuring Product Teams Around Outcomes with Jose Quesada: https://www.produxlabs.com/product-thinking-blog/episode-230-amex-product-outcomes-jose-quesada Episode 260: Avoiding Common Mistakes in Org Design: https://www.produxlabs.com/product-thinking-blog/episode-260-org-design Episode 211: The Power of Team Topologies with Matthew Skelton: https://www.produxlabs.com/product-thinking-blog/episode-211-matthew-skelton-team-topologies Jose Quesada on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/josequesadamedina/ Matthew Skelton on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/matthewskelton/ Check our courses: https://productinstitute.com/

    17 min
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About

Successful product management isn’t just about training the product managers who work side by side with developers everyday to build better products. It’s about taking a step back, approaching the systems within organizations as a whole, and leveling up product leadership to improve these systems. This is the Product Thinking Podcast, where Melissa Perri will connect with industry leading experts in the product management space, AND answer your most pressing questions about everything product. Join us each week to level up your skillset and invest in yourself as a product leader.

Information

  • Creator
    Melissa Perri
  • Years Active
    2021 - 2026
  • Episodes
    269
  • Rating
    Clean
  • Copyright
    © 252726
  • Show Website
    Product Thinking

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