The Way of Product with Caden Damiano

Caden Damiano

The Way of Product is your graduate school focused on developing a taste for what “great products” look like. Conversations are two professionals talking shop about positioning, segmentation, excellent product design, and most importantly, taste. www.wayofproduct.com

  1. 22 HR AGO

    #163: Mustafa Kapadia—You're Gonna Need More PMs, Not Less: The Counterintuitive Future of Product Management in The Age of AI

    Mustafa Kapadia is the Managing Director at Echo Point, where he helps product organizations use AI to eliminate operational drag and compound product velocity. Rising to prominence in the 2010s at the intersection of digital transformation and DevOps, he became known for translating emerging technologies into operating models executives could actually run. Today he is widely regarded as a leading advisor to product leaders seeking to turn generative AI into durable leverage rather than surface-level experimentation. Previously, as Global Head of Products & Innovation for Generative AI at Google, he led efforts to help the company’s largest enterprise customers, representing roughly the top 20% by scale, build new products and experiences on modern cloud and AI infrastructure. In that role from 2019 to 2023, he built new global innovation labs, combined sales and P&L ownership with hands-on product advisory, and drove adoption of generative AI across complex, multi-billion-dollar portfolios. He became known for helping Fortune 500 executives move from slideware to shipped product by redesigning how cross-functional teams discovered, validated, and launched new offerings. His career highlights include a seven-year run at IBM, where he grew an internal DevOps capability 3x into a market-facing advisory practice and later led the North America Digital Transformation practice. From 2012 to 2014 he built a cloud automation service that delivered double-digit growth while helping large enterprises compress infrastructure delivery from months to days. Earlier, he served on the Board of Directors at the DevOps Institute from 2015 to 2019, shaping curriculum and thought leadership as DevOps moved from niche practice to mainstream mandate in organizations managing hundreds of applications and billions in IT spend. He also co-founded Science4Superheroes in 2014, running it for eight years to introduce scientific thinking to children under five through playful, family-centric programs. As host of the Masters Of Product podcast and author of the AI Empowered PM newsletter on Substack, he helps more than 2,000 product managers each year learn to convert AI from a curiosity into a core part of their craft. Through private workshops, public cohorts, and consulting engagements, his work routinely unlocks multi-thousand-hour annual savings per organization and resets how product teams think about judgment, speed, and quality in the AI era. Listen to episode 162 on Apple Podcasts↗ and Spotify↗ Building gets easier. Deciding what to build gets harder. Here’s how the top 1% are preparing. “I had to figure out what I wanted to be when I grow up.” Mustafa Kapadia says this quietly, almost to himself. He’s describing the moment two years ago when he left Google—after 20 years at places like IBM and Google, running accelerators, building consulting practices, watching digital transformations succeed and fail. And then he walked away to help product managers stop being terrified of the thing that might replace them. I ask him about the fear. The senior engineers and PMs who’ve told me they’re just... opting out. Done. Can’t adapt. Won’t try. “I think we have really two camps,” he says. He holds up two fingers, almost making the “peace sign”—then stops. “Well, three camps.” Camp one: the AI-first believers. They start every task with an LLM. They use ChatGPT for one thing, Claude for another, Gemini for a third, NotebookLM for synthesis. They’ve rebuilt their entire workflow around what AI can do. Camp three: the skeptics. They want AI at arm’s length. Afraid it’ll outsource their thinking. Afraid it’ll take their jobs. They’re the same people who resisted mobile phones, who pushed back against the internet, who had concerns about every new technology since the printing press. And then there’s everyone else. The 60% in the middle of the bell curve, trying to figure out which way to go. “They want to use AI,” he says of the middle camp. “But they don’t really know how. They’re doing surface-level stuff.” Surface-level. He has a phrase for this. He calls it “using a Ferrari as a paperweight.” Most PMs use AI for three or four tasks. Summarizing documents. Writing emails. Maybe a little brainstorming. They’ve been handed one of the most powerful tools ever created, and they’re using it to check boxes. The top 1% do something different. I’ve felt this myself—the gravitational pull of the easy path. Voice dictation made it so simple to just talk through everything with Claude. I found myself reaching for AI before I’d even tried to think. At some point I started looking for a “brick” for AI, the same way I use a physical lock to keep myself off my phone apps. I tell him this. Maybe I should get my notebook out first, I say. Try to get as far as I can before— He cuts me off. Not rudely. Precisely. “You’re still using AI,” he says. “It’s just a matter of how you’re using AI. Depends on your comfort level.” Some people think things through first, then use AI to refine their thinking. Others start with AI—”just give me all the options”—then choose the ones they care about, move forward with their own thinking, then use AI to refine it again. Their thought process is sandwiched between AI. I ask him if there’s a right way. “I don’t think there’s a right or wrong way,” he says. “I think the more important question is: does it help you become more creative, effective, innovative as a product manager? And if the answer is yes—then more power to you.” He has a framework. Of course he does—he’s a consultant. But when he describes it, it sounds less like a sales pitch and more like a craft. “Five keys,” he says. “Assign a role. Provide first-principle inputs. Give it instructions—best practices. Format. And then an example that ties it all together.” The example he uses is user stories. You don’t just ask AI to write them. You prime the engine. You tell it: you’re world-class at this. You give it the problem, the user, the benefit, the feature. You tell it what a good user story looks like—customer-focused, unique, technical-free. You show it one. “And then—” he pauses. “Even if AI gives you ten great user stories, you don’t take all ten.” This is where it gets interesting. “You take the one or two that resonate. You use your own PM thinking. Your own experience. Your own context.” He calls this human-AI optimization. You’re not outsourcing your thinking. You’re using AI to prime you—to surface options you might not have considered. And then you decide. The middle 60% outsource their thinking. The skeptics avoid AI entirely. The top 1% sit in the tension between—augmented, not replaced. The conversation turns to something stranger. Synthetic personas. Mustafa is working with a client who has years of market research sitting on laptops and servers. Interviews. Surveys. Behavioral data. All of it gathering dust in slide decks nobody opens. “How do you take that research and make it actionable?” he asks. “How do you give it to someone in sales, or marketing, or product?” His answer: build a synthetic user. A simulated persona trained on all that research. Something a salesperson can practice objection-handling with. Something a PM can ask, “What would you think if we priced this at $99 instead of $149?” “It doesn’t replace talking to a real user,” he clarifies. “But in those crazy questions you want to ask—it’s a great way to refine your thinking.” Then he goes further. “We have a client who’s building a synthetic competitor.” I stop him. “A what?” “A synthetic profile of their competitor. So they can think about second-order effects.” He’s more animated now. “If I drop my price, what is this competitor going to do? If I launch this feature—a feature they already have—how are the two comparing? What can they do to make my feature less valuable in the marketplace?” None of this means it’s exactly what the competition will do. But it forces you to think. To make better decisions. You can run war games now that were never possible before. I ask him about the skeptics. The 20% who won’t get on the bus. What happens to them? He doesn’t sugarcoat it. “The ship has sailed,” he says. “The train has left the station. Whatever analogy you want to use—it’s happening. The only question as a PM is: where do you want to be? In the driver’s seat? The passenger seat? Or in the caboose, being dragged?” But then his tone shifts. Softer. Almost conspiratorial. “If you’re a PM and you’re ambitious—and most PMs are, which is why I love them so much—this is the best time to differentiate yourself. Organizations are dying for PMs who can show an AI-first mindset. They just don’t know what that looks like.” He’s not selling anymore. He’s confessing. “I prefer not to talk about what good looks like. I prefer to show them. Because until you actually show someone what a good PM with AI can do—that’s when they say, ‘Okay. How fast can we move?’” One client started with four or five AI use cases. After his team helped them understand what was possible—what the top 1% actually do—they identified over 250. That’s the gap. That’s the opportunity. Near the end, he says something that surprises me. “I think you’re going to need more PMs, not less.” I must have looked skeptical. “When you can build anything,” he explains, “deciding what to build becomes a much tougher decision. Building is going to get easier and easier. But figuring out what to build, what not to build, working with the business to determine what’s actually going to make an impact—that’s the job. And I think we’re going to need more people doing it.” The order-taker PM—business decides, PM translates, engineering builds—that

    46 min
  2. 4 DAYS AGO

    #162: Matt D Smith – Your AI Edge is The Vocabulary You Already Have

    Matt D. Smith is the founder of Shift Nudge, a professional interface design training platform for working designers. Rising to prominence in the 2010s for his systematic approach to visual interfaces, he became known for turning over 20 years of interface design practice into a structured curriculum used by thousands of designers worldwide. His work on design patterns and tools has made him a widely regarded figure in modern interface design education. Previously, as founder of Shift Nudge, he built a global program that helps designers advance their careers in as little as 8–12 weeks while receiving mentorship and support for a full year, equipping them to lead teams and ship production-quality interfaces. He became known for transforming working designers’ income trajectories, with students reporting income growth of 2x within a few years by applying his methods in typography, layout, and spacing. Through Shift Nudge, he has trained designers from leading startups and global brands, positioning the program as a modern alternative to traditional design education. His career highlights include pioneering the Float Label pattern in 2013, a form interaction now adopted across products from Apple, Google, and countless consumer applications. He also created the interface design tools Contrast and Flowkit, Figma plugins that have reached tens of thousands of users and are used to check color contrast and design user flows inside modern design tools. Beyond product work, he has served as an adjunct professor at the University of Georgia and delivered workshops and talks at conferences including Adobe MAX, Dribbble Hangtime, Figma’s Config, Smashing Conference, and others, extending his influence from the classroom to stages across the United States. Listen to episode 163 on Apple Podcasts↗ and Spotify↗ What a decade of design fundamentals taught me about delegating to Claude Code—and why Shift Nudge was secretly an AI onboarding course before AI existed. “I have a weird obsession with trying to get the absolute most difficult username across every platform,” Matt says, and it lands like a confession. He goes by MDS on the internet. Three letters. You can imagine the negotiations, the dead accounts, the patience required. We’re a hundred episodes into knowing each other—he was guest number 50, and now here we are past 150—and he’s still introducing himself as someone in transition. “I’m a designer turned educator now sort of turning into a CEO trying to figure out how to run a design education business.” There’s something in how he says trying to figure out that earns the pause that follows. I’ve watched Matt’s public work for almost a decade. I was the third beta tester to graduate from Shift Nudge back in 2020. I bought low, as I like to say. The course has appreciated since then, but so has something else—something I didn’t understand I was learning until AI came along. When Claude Code got good enough to actually help with design tasks, I noticed I could delegate effectively while other people couldn’t. The difference wasn’t technical skill. It was vocabulary. Every time I’d tell Claude to “adjust the row height” or “try a card component instead of a list view,” I was drawing from a library of concepts Matt had codified years earlier. Those concepts weren’t just design rules. They were the building blocks of clear instruction. The most valuable thing I learned from Shift Nudge was the vocabulary. When I became a design lead, I could articulate with precise vocabulary what wasn’t working in someone’s design. Subject, object, verb. The spacing is off for this reason. That precision made me good at delegating to humans. Now it makes me good at delegating to machines in the form of Skill files to AI agents. Matt nods slowly. “Skill files,” he says, “they’re good at getting directionally correct, especially things that are like absolutely binary. Is this the way you write an HTML link or is it not? It’s definitely right and wrong.” He pauses. “Whereas design... there’s more gray area than black and white.” Capturing the nuance a missed in my observation. He’s talking about Claude’s skill files—those markdown documents that give AI context about how you want things done. And he’s right that they work best for the binary stuff. But here’s the connection he helped me articulate: skill files are functionally identical to the Standard Operating Procedures you’d write for a junior designer. I bring up The Defiant Ones, the documentary about Dr. Dre and Jimmy Iovine. When Jimmy was learning to be a record producer, his mentor taught him by working through him. “Adjust the reverb. What happened there? Why did that work? Why did that not work?” It’s the master-apprentice model, I say. And I think that’s where things are going with AI. Matt leans into it. “You still need that institutional knowledge, the vocabulary. AI can adjust the reverb and adjust the echo and adjust the panning. Oh, you want five different beats? But it’s like—why? How much? When do we stop?” He lets the questions hang. “That creativity... I think there’s gonna be, you know, in the same way that there was a big resurgence of live in-person things after COVID—I think we’re all gonna be like, it’s just refreshing when I read something online and I can tell that a human wrote it.” There’s something in his voice when he says refreshing. Like he’s already tired of the alternative. I ask about the divergence he sees coming—who wins, who loses. He doesn’t hesitate. “There’s gonna be a divergence where the person who doesn’t use AI is just simply not as effective as the person who learned how to use it. But then there’s also gonna be a divergence of—I’m using AI all the time and this other person is like, well, I learned a lot of things before AI existed and I use AI and now I know more than you.” He pauses. “And this other person’s just fully reliant on AI and they don’t know much.” It’s gonna be harder to learn things, he says, because AI is so instant. “It makes it like painful to sit down and read something and actually learn it yourself.” The irony is that the people most equipped to leverage AI are the ones who invested in their own brains before these tools existed. Matt has a framework for mapping where you fit in all this. He calls it Pioneer, Builder, Consumer. Pioneers are the people at Anthropic and Cursor and OpenAI—building the intelligence and the harnesses that give it to us. Builders are the developers and designers using these tools to create products. “We’re sort of converging slowly,” he says. “Designers are over here and developers over here, and some are still better at infrastructure and setup and code—like, oh, that’s why would you use useEffect here in React—and designers over here like, what does that mean? But it’s starting to be irrelevant because some of the tools are getting so good.” And Consumers? “My mom is a good example,” he says. “She’s not choosing to have AI in her life. She’s just seeing it happen through Amazon review summaries or Google AI summaries for the things that she used to search for.” The question isn’t whether AI will touch your life. It’s which persona you want to occupy. I push on the vibe-coding hype. All those people on Twitter saying software is cooked because they built a Facebook clone in five minutes. “I don’t wanna rely on your janky vibe coded app to help me,” Matt says, and there’s a dry humor in it. I have a follow-up I’ve started using. Whenever someone says “I did this with AI”, I ask: Cool. So what’s your plan to maintain it? They never have an answer. That’s when you realize why we pay engineers. DevOps, infrastructure, support tickets—that’s the unglamorous work that keeps the train running. Building something on your own is a lot different than supporting a hundred thousand users at once. Near the end, Matt gets reflective about advice. “You’re gonna need your own knowledge,” he says. “Build that vocabulary through any means possible. Whether it’s asking questions from AI while you’re learning, or watching videos, or attending school. I think there’s still real value in you building your own brain.” He catches himself. “And if you don’t want to do it—you know, maybe you change careers. I don’t know.” Something shifts. The pragmatism cuts through. “Just kind of plot yourself,” he says. “Are you a pioneer? Are you gonna be a builder? Are you just gonna be a consumer? Because either way, AI is gonna be touching a part of your life, whether you choose to or not.” I’ve been thinking about this since we talked. I’m reading books again—not AI books, the fire hose has enough of those. I’m building vocabulary in domains outside tech: marketing, strategy, positioning. The cost of building has collapsed. The cost of deciding what to build has not. Everyone with taste is not in tech right now. It’s in the humanities, philosophy, long-form content. That’s where I’m looking. The Way of Product w/ Caden Damiano is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber. Get full access to The Way of Product w/ Caden Damiano at www.wayofproduct.com/subscribe

    53 min
  3. 9 MAR

    #161: Steph Cartwright: AI Reads Context, Not Keywords—and That Changes Everything About Your Job Search

    Steph Cartwright is a Job Search Strategist and Certified Professional Resume Writer (CPRW) at Off The Clock Resumes LLC, where she helps tech and industry leaders present as confident, high‑value candidates on screen. She became known for career branding that turns complex experience into clear, employer‑ready narratives that consistently convert views into interviews. She has built an audience of more than 3,200 followers and over 500 direct connections while operating from the Spokane–Coeur d’Alene region. Previously, as Founder and Principal Writer at Off The Clock Resumes LLC, she scaled a boutique career services practice into a specialized partner for job seekers navigating competitive roles with compensation packages frequently exceeding six figures. She became known for a structured, data‑driven intake process that translates into résumés and LinkedIn profiles optimized for modern applicant tracking systems, significantly increasing interview rates and offer quality for her clients. Through one‑to‑one engagements and digital products, she has supported hundreds of professionals across tech and adjacent industries. Her career highlights include earning and maintaining the CPRW credential, signaling adherence to rigorous professional standards in résumé writing and career communication. She has continued to refine a distinctive positioning around “career branding that gets noticed and lands interviews with higher offers,” focusing on clarity of story, on‑screen confidence, and repeatable systems that scale beyond any single job search. By combining structured frameworks with empathy for career pivots, she has become a trusted partner for leaders who need to articulate complex trajectories in two pages or less. Listen to episode 161 on Spotify or Apple Podcasts Why the old keyword-stuffing playbook is dead. And what job seekers should do instead. “I am the face behind my business and in front of my business,” Steph says, “as well as the one that does all the one-on-one work with clients.” There’s something in how she phrases it—face behind and in front—that captures the exhausting clarity of solopreneurship. She’s the product and the salesperson. The expert and the marketer. And she’s been doing it since 2014. She started as a serial job seeker. “I am well rehearsed in job search practices,” she says, with the kind of dry humor that only comes from having lived through too many of them. Now she’s getting ready to attend another annual conference to stay current on hiring tech. The landscape, she tells me, is shifting faster than most people realize. I ask her what current hiring practices are doing to block talented candidates. “It’s gone beyond applicant tracking systems,” she says. “That used to be very keyword based. And now it’s not so much the worry of making sure your resume has all the right keywords.” She pauses. “AI is now adding generative and predictive analytics to this technology. It’s actually going to make it easier for job seekers because they don’t have to worry so much about the specific keywords.” This is counterintuitive. For years, the advice was: mirror the job posting. Product development. Project management. Agile methodology. Match the strings, beat the algorithm, get in front of a human. That era, Steph tells me, is ending. She walks me through an example. Say a product developer five to ten years ago wanted to tailor their resume. They’d add the term product development to ensure their resume would surface in searches. If someone went into LinkedIn looking for that skill, they’d pop up. “It was really important to have the right keywords, the right phrasing,” she says. Now? “If you don’t have the specific words—the specific product development phrase—AI is going to look at your experience and it’s going to look at context. It’s going to look at, you know, predictive. If you say you’ve done this, you likely have this skill.” She lets that land. “AI is going to start making assumptions about you that will help you.” The old systems were deterministic. You could game them if you knew the rules. The new systems are probabilistic. They infer. They read between the lines. This is good news for generalists and career changers—people whose careers don’t fit neatly into keyword buckets. I tell her this resonates. I’ve jumped between design and product management throughout my career, and I’ve gotten direct questions: What do you actually want to do? Few people accept my honest answer, which is basically whatever the company needs and I find interesting at the time. Steph nods. “At some point in the last ten years, the trend shifted from wanting someone with a broad range of skills to: we want a specialist, we want someone who really is an expert in this one thing.” She pauses. “But now that we’re adding in this AI element, we’re kind of going back to the original trend where AI wants to see the breadth of your knowledge and then be able to say, yes, this person has these skills, but they also have these skills, which will likely be a good fit.” The conversation turns to how people market themselves, and Steph lands on an analogy that sticks. “Highlighting benefits over features,” she says. “Those keywords, those skills—those were features, not the benefits. Whereas now, if you shift your mindset to: I’m going to position myself as the best fit for this job, not because of my skills, not because of the features that I bring, but because of the impact I’ve made.” She explains how this plays out technically. “One bullet on your resume can speak to an ATS based on the keywords in it—so that one bullet may be associated with project management skills. Whereas now with AI, that one bullet, depending on how much information you give it, might register five, six, seven different skills associated with that one bullet because of the impact you had.” The example she gives: designing a product that increased efficiency for a large enterprise. That single bullet, written with context, signals project planning, project management, design, strategy—multiple capabilities inferred from one outcome. The question isn’t What can you do? It’s What have you made happen? I bring up LinkedIn, and how I’ve started writing narrative case studies instead of bullet points for each role. The bet is that AI will read it and extract more context to provide better evaluations to hiring managers. Steph lights up. “Storytelling, especially on LinkedIn, is key. I used to work with clients very specifically on, let’s take these bullets on your resume and expand them as projects on your LinkedIn profile. Because that project section is also searchable. It’s also readable by the tools behind the scenes.” She leans into it. “Tell me the full story. How it started. What was the challenge that needed to be resolved. What you did, who you impacted, what obstacles you faced, and then what was the ultimate outcome.” Each project gets 2000+ characters, she says—2000 characters the AI can read, infer from, match you to opportunities. But the real shift in her thinking, she tells me, isn’t about resumes at all. “If you don’t tailor your resume for this specific job before you apply, you won’t even be considered,” she says. “I am still a strong believer in tailoring a resume if you’re gonna apply online. But now, because the competition is so high, I would say it’s more important to have a full blown strategy built outside of applying for jobs online.” What does that strategy look like? “It’s more important to be strategic in who do I need to talk to? Who can I start relationships with—even if it doesn’t result in a job at that company—but is going to expand my reach in my targeted field or industry?” She reframes networking as something that makes people less uncomfortable. “You can’t just think of it as networking—just getting your name out there and hoping something lands. But building professional friendships is what is going to make the difference.” I ask her how she coaches someone who’s just starting out, someone without an existing network. “Find a trade or professional organization that you can join and actively participate in,” she says. “One that opens you up to develop professional friendships with people you would maybe look at as competitors for different jobs, but they’re also mentors.” She tells me about a colleague halfway across the country. “She and I just sat down and had lunch together over Zoom and just talked shop. She has sent me referrals. I have sent her referrals. I would call her a mentor, but we’re also friends.” There’s warmth in it. “I know she’s in my corner. She will never do something to jeopardize that professional friendship.” I share a story from my own career. Five years ago, I had an offer from a company that I turned down for something more interesting. The hiring manager was a class act about it—That sounds really cool, I’m really excited for you—and he kept in touch. For five years. Then, recently, when I was looking again, an opening came up. I interviewed. It went well. Then a budget issue threatened to kill it. Another team needed to shuffle a designer internally. I waited all weekend, assuming it was over. The recruiter called. We want you here. We have to work this out, but we really want to figure out a way to make this work. They talked to the VPs. Got budget approval. Carved a spot out for me. “That’s best case scenario right there,” Steph says. It’s a five-year story arc, I tell her. And it only worked because the relationship was real. “That is the end goal,” she says. “You’re not going to find that by just applying for jobs on Indeed. You have to do that extra work. And the narrative of this is how you’re supposed to find a new job ke

    53 min
  4. 2 MAR

    #160: Kasim Aslam – Traffic First, Product Second. The founder of the #1 Google Ads agency shares why solving for traffic before building anything changes everything.

    Kasim Aslam is the Co-Founder of Pareto Talent, a boutique executive assistant recruiting agency helping entrepreneurs reclaim 40+ hours per month through rigorously trained, full-time remote EAs sourced primarily from Latin America. Rising to prominence in the 2010s as the architect behind one of the top-ranked Solutions 8 Google Ads agencies in the world, he became known for building and exiting multiple seven- and eight-figure businesses while positioning himself as a leading voice on performance marketing and founder leverage. Today he is widely regarded as an influential figure in the emerging discipline of Answer Engine Optimization and founder systems design, serving growth-focused entrepreneurs through Driven Mastermind and his briefing series The Daily Sigh. Previously, as Founder and CEO at Solutions 8, Kasim scaled what his M&A advisor described as the largest specialized Google Ads agency in the world at the time of its sale, managing more than $100M in ad spend and growing a fully remote team of over 100 employees across multiple countries. In October 2022 he executed an all-cash eight-figure exit after nearly 18 years building the firm from a one-man web-development operation into a top-ranked Google Premier Partner serving hundreds of clients. That transaction marked his third successful exit after building six different seven- and eight-figure ventures over two decades. His career highlights include co-founding Driven Mastermind, an invite-only growth community led alongside Perry Belcher and Jason Fladlien that brings together multi-seven- and eight-figure founders for high-velocity experimentation and scale. He also co-founded Nido Marketing, a specialist firm dedicated to helping Montessori schools grow enrollments through digital marketing programs and over 20 self-guided courses built for more than 100 school operators. Earlier, as Co-Host of the Perpetual Traffic Podcast, he helped keep the show consistently ranked among the top 10 marketing podcasts worldwide while publishing weekly episodes over four years to an audience of thousands of practitioners. As the author of “The 7 Critical Principles of Effective Digital Marketing,” Kasim was recognized by BookAuthority among the 100 Best Digital Marketing Books of All Time and named one of UMSL’s Top 50 Digital Marketing Thought Leaders in the United States in 2020. Through his current project The Daily Sigh at DailySigh.ai, he delivers a 15-minute daily briefing distilling what actually mattered in business, AI, and entrepreneurship for revenue-generating founders, reinforcing his legacy as a strategist who converts complex shifts into practical, founder-ready decisions. Listen on Apple Podcasts↗ and Spotify↗ Why 20 years of watching “the best product lose” led to a radically different business thesis “I spent 20 years watching the best product lose,” Kasim Aslam tells me. He lets the sentence land. “I spent 20 years watching the best products go by the wayside. The best kept secret stay a secret. Because they couldn’t drive traffic.” We’re an hour into a conversation that started with him saying he builds businesses professionally—a phrase so casually delivered it took me a moment to register its weight. Kasim has built the number one ranked Google Ads agency in the world, exited to a SoftBank-backed organization at an eight-figure valuation, and accumulated a portfolio of 17 companies across digital marketing, real estate, and professional services. He’s not on the org chart of any of them. His favorite answer, he tells me, is “I don’t know.” But before any of that, there were the failures. Over a hundred of them, by his count. Medical transcription. A furniture store. Selling purified mercury. A moving company. Baskets on Amazon. “When I went back and tried to count,” he says, “I couldn’t count every epic failure.” Kasim was raised by a blind single mother on social security disability. At 22, he lost his job in the 2008 crash with $150,000 in debt. What he found on the other side of those hundred failures wasn’t a better product or a smarter strategy. It was a formula that most entrepreneurs get exactly backwards. Find the traffic first. Then figure out what problem to solve. --- The insight came from a peculiar vantage point. As the founder of Solutions 8, Kasim spent years managing $100 million in advertising spend for other people. Two hundred clients. Eighty employees. He got to see everything—what things cost, what they sold for, retention rates, competitor landscapes, what attention was actually worth. “What’s really devastating when you start to wrap your head around what that means,” he says, leaning into the word, “is Google makes more money than you do. You’re slaving away and the traffic stores are eating your lunch. You’re working for them.” An e-commerce company, he explains, will spend more on traffic than on cost of goods, fulfillment, operations, and customer service. Sometimes combined. The math is brutal. And most founders only discover it after they’ve already built the thing. Get full access to The Way of Product w/ Caden Damiano at www.wayofproduct.com/subscribe

    54 min
  5. 23 FEB

    #159 Kelly Price — HR as Partners, Not Police: Control, Compliance, and Coaching Your Way to Better HR

    Kelly Price, SHRM-SCP is the Founder & CEO at ThriveHR, LLC. Rising to prominence in the 2010s as a high-impact HR and Total Rewards leader across multi-location service organizations, she became known for transforming people operations into a strategic growth engine for small and mid-sized businesses. Today she is widely regarded as a people-first operator who helps owners turn culture, compensation, and benefits into durable competitive advantage. Previously, as Senior People Partner – Total Rewards at nbkc bank, she led compensation and benefits strategy for a rapidly evolving financial services organization during a period of tightening labor markets and accelerated digital transformation. In her earlier tenure as People Operations & Benefits Manager at nbkc, she was responsible for end-to-end HR operations for the Kansas City metropolitan footprint, supporting several hundred employees through multi-year change while maintaining compliance, retention, and engagement metrics. Her career highlights include a seven-year rise at Samson Dental Partners, LLC, where she progressed from Recruiting Manager to Vice President of Human Resources while the organization scaled across multiple states and dozens of dental practices. During that period she built the recruiting function from scratch, hired clinical and non-clinical teams across home office and field locations, and expanded the HR organization to support rapid growth in headcount and locations. Earlier in her career, she sharpened her recruiting and talent acquisition craft at Ferrellgas and Waddell & Reed, managing nationwide and regional hiring mandates in highly competitive markets. A graduate of Kansas State University with a bachelor’s degree in Hospitality Administration and a SHRM Senior Certified Professional credential renewed through 2027, she has also been an influential figure in the Kansas City HR community through board service with Total Rewards KC and L’Arche Heartland. Through ThriveHR, she continues to advise founders and leadership teams across Kansas City, Southwest Florida, and Houston on building resilient people strategies that scale. Listen on Apple Podcasts↗ and Spotify↗ The Netflix Problem Everyone loves the Netflix talent philosophy in theory. Treat adults like adults. Pay top of market. Fire fast. No vacation tracking. But Kelly sees the gap between billion-dollar companies and the small businesses that make up most of America. A 50-person company in Kansas City can’t offer five engineers’ salaries for one rockstar. They need B players and C players for repetitive, supervised work—and that’s not a failure, it’s reality. “An A player can’t sit in every single role because they won’t be happy,” Kelly told me. “There are lots of different levels of work that needs to be done.” The talent strategy has to match the business. A startup founder passionate about their product doesn’t need—and can’t afford—Netflix-style HR. They need someone to take the compliance burden off their plate so they can focus on what they love. --- Control and Money When I asked about return-to-office mandates, Kelly didn’t hedge: “It’s all about control. Control and money.” She’s watched clients cling to eight-to-five, sit-at-your-desk policies despite every study proving flexibility drives productivity. COVID revealed something we can’t unsee—life is precious, and there’s more to it than work. But that doesn’t mean 100% remote works everywhere. Some jobs require physical presence. Some small businesses can’t manage a distributed team. The mistake isn’t having people in the office—it’s treating flexibility as a perk rather than a tool. “That is 100% a people problem,” Kelly said. “Do you have leaders in place that are holding their employees accountable? Creating an environment where they can ask questions when they don’t know what to do?” The system—remote, hybrid, in-office—doesn’t determine success. Leadership does. --- The Three-Tier Audit When Kelly onboards a new client, she starts with the business fundamentals: How do you make money? What are you trying to accomplish? What type of people work best here? Then comes the audit—every policy, every state, every compliance requirement. Hiring, I-9s, performance management, payroll, termination, offboarding. Top to bottom. The findings get prioritized into three tiers: **Compliance first.** “You’re gonna get sued for this stuff.” Fix what the government could fine you for before chasing strategy. **Tactical second.** Hiring processes, performance reviews, HR systems. Are they efficient? Are the people running them trained? **Strategic last.** Only after the foundation is solid do you ask: How can the people function support business growth? “If you don’t have these foundational things in place,” Kelly said, “you really shouldn’t be thinking about strategy.” --- Ask Permission The most practical advice Kelly shared was disarmingly simple: ask permission. “I wanna be honest with you, and I’d like permission to share my thoughts.” She’s never had anyone say no. They might disagree afterward, but they listen. And often they come back later, having processed what was said. It works with founders, CEOs, leaders with egos—anyone who needs to hear something they don’t want to hear. The phrase reframes confrontation as collaboration. You’re not attacking. You’re partnering. Get full access to The Way of Product w/ Caden Damiano at www.wayofproduct.com/subscribe

    50 min
  6. 16 FEB

    #158 Makoto Kern on AI Integration Failures: unlock leadership buy-in, measure real adoption, and protect your competitive moat

    Makoto Kern is the UX Product Strategy Design Leader at IIIMPACT, Inc.. Rising to prominence in the 2000s, he built a reputation for transforming complex enterprise software into high-adoption products, guiding clients through more than 22 years of digital transformation initiatives across energy, cybersecurity, healthcare, fintech, and logistics. He became known for driving 450% year-over-year revenue growth at IIIMPACT while helping Fortune 500 and high-growth B2B SaaS teams achieve up to 85% user adoption versus a 34% industry average, and for preventing $2.3 million in wasted spend through strategic planning workshops. Previously, as a senior UX consultant at FROM, The Digital Transformation Agency, he led mobile and responsive web experience design for one of the largest U.S. car rental companies, a major Broadway e-commerce platform, and a top payroll provider, contributing to multi-million-dollar online revenue channels between 2011 and 2020. He became known for building cross-platform loyalty workflows across iOS, Android, and responsive web, and for introducing UX strategy practices that informed product decisions through analytics and usability testing. His career highlights include senior UX roles at Walgreens and Humana, where he shaped e-commerce, mobile, and responsive experiences for millions of consumers between 2011 and 2014. At Walgreens, he helped optimize cross-channel journeys across Walgreens.com and affiliated sites, supporting year-over-year gains in online conversion for properties spanning pharmacy, beauty, and vision. At Humana, he led UX for member-facing mobile apps and loyalty programs, collaborating with innovation teams to move concepts from brainstorming to tested prototypes in an agile environment. As host and executive producer of the Make an IIIMPACT Podcast, he translates two decades of product and UX leadership into weekly conversations for CTOs and product executives, growing the show to more than 80,000 subscribers and generating over 35,000 views on individual episodes in 2024. He also writes about his journey from robotics and fuzzy controllers to software leadership in essays like his Medium piece “From Broken Glasses to Building Better Software,” extending his influence beyond client work into broader product and design circles. Listen on Apple Podcasts↗ and Spotify↗ What happens when companies pause everything for eight months to integrate AI and discover nobody uses it. “The moat is the user experience,” Makoto says. “The easier you make that, the better. No one cares if you’re using Claude or ChatGPT.” We’re about twenty minutes in, and I’ve been waiting for someone to say this out loud. Everyone’s talking about AI strategy, AI integration, AI roadmaps. Makoto’s been consulting for twenty years, and he keeps coming back to the same point: nobody cares about the backend. They care if it solves their problem. Makoto Kern started as an electrical engineer in Chicago, building software for manufacturing environments. His job was to automate systems, make them faster, more efficient. But he kept noticing something. The software was built by engineers for engineers—and the people on the factory floor weren’t engineers. They had to use it anyway. “It kind of naturally led to UX,” he tells me. He started building websites on the side during the .com boom, taking sales calls over lunch at his full-time job, finding work on Craigslist. Eventually he quit and started IIIMPACT. That was twenty years ago. I ask him what’s been consistent across those two decades. What survives the hype cycles? “You still see the same problems no matter what the technology is,” he says. “You have to be hyper-focused on knowing that you’re solving someone’s problems.” The pattern is always the same. During the .com boom, companies added “.com” to their name and watched valuations spike. With crypto, the pattern repeated. Now with AI, he’s watching it again—companies pausing critical feature development to “just integrate AI,” only to discover nobody uses it. Then he tells me about a case study that stuck with me for days. One of his clients decided to pause all product development for eight months to integrate an AI chat feature. Microsoft was pushing Copilot. Salesforce was pushing Copilot. Everyone wanted one. So they built one. “Eight months later it’s integrated,” Makoto says. “We take a look at Pendo. We see a prompt, maybe two prompts during training. Nothing else after that.” I wait for him to continue. “So nobody’s using this. And this is exactly why you test.” The features users had been asking for? On the back burner for eight months. The competitors who kept building those features? Now ahead. Eight months of “innovation” became eight months of falling behind. “It’s another Clippy right now,” he says, and something in his voice suggests he’s said this before. “People are falling off after using it once or twice. They’re like, I don’t need to use this. I’m gonna go back to what I’m familiar with.” I bring up the instinct to chase technology—how hard it is to tell a board you’re focused on fundamentals when they’re asking about AI strategy. Makoto has a metaphor for this. “It’s like telling a kid it’s cold outside, wear a jacket. They don’t wanna wear the jacket.” He pauses. “Then they get sick.” He says when his team goes into consulting gigs, a lot of these companies are the kid who doesn’t want to wear the jacket. You tell them what’s good process, what’s good strategy. But they’re going to do it their way. “So we go in there. Of course, I bring the jacket. I tell ‘em to put it on after they’re cold.” There’s something resigned in how he says after. “Have you heard of the Peter Principle?” he asks. I shake my head. “You’re promoted to the point of incompetence.” He lets it sit. “You get somebody who’s a great developer and they’re promoted to manager, but they can’t manage people. So they stop there.” He’s seen product people say we don’t need to change anything, it’s working as it is. No innovation. Just following what competitors do because it’s the safe play. “If the salespeople heard about this, they’d be like, are you crazy?” The conversation turns to vibe coding—all those people on Twitter claiming software is cooked because they built something in five minutes. I tell him I’ve been using Claude Code, and it’s incredible for setup, for gluing repositories together. But when things break, I don’t understand what I’m reading. “Yeah,” he says. “That’s UX.” Performance is UX. Security is UX. If your dev team creates tech debt and every button takes five seconds to load, that’s not a backend problem. That’s the experience. And with everyone vibe-coding everything, he says, you’re going to see privacy issues, security flaws. His cybersecurity clients are ready. “They’re licking their lips.” I ask him what he does when the AI hype gets overwhelming—all the noise about automation, about making a hundred thousand dollars a week. “I just took a step back,” he says. “This is the bubble that people are going after. Don’t pay attention to that. Just stick with the fundamentals.” He tells me about his own experience with AI. He uses it for crunching data sets, for research, for brainstorming. But he sees the hallucinations. He questions the outputs. “Don’t use it as the end-all, be-all.” Near the end, I ask what hasn’t been said. “If you want to innovate, you can’t be scared about utilizing the right resources in the right way,” he says. “Because now if you don’t, it’s going to be detrimental to your company.” He pauses. “Don’t rely so much on technology. Always fall back on the right processes. If your product interfaces with users—like most of them do—be super hyper-focused on the user experience. Even if you have board members pushing your CEOs and your leaders into a certain direction, you have to get them to understand: are you solving a user’s pain point or not?” If you’re not, he says, then who knows what you’re building toward. I’ve been thinking about this conversation since we hung up. The technology changes, but the failure mode doesn’t. .com boom. Crypto. Now AI. Same mistakes, faster. The companies that survive these cycles aren’t the ones chasing features. They’re the ones who remember what the moat actually is. It’s not the AI. It’s how easy you make it for humans to accomplish what they came to do. The Way of Product w/ Caden Damiano is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber. Get full access to The Way of Product w/ Caden Damiano at www.wayofproduct.com/subscribe

    41 min
  7. 9 FEB

    #157 Tom Shapland, PM at LiveKit: Unlock voice AI, navigate early-stage markets, and de-risk product bets

    Tom Shapland is the Product Manager at LiveKit. Rising to prominence in the 2010s by turning PhD research at the University of California, Davis into a commercial irrigation analytics company, he is now helping build an open source platform for multimodal, real-time voice and video agents used in production by developers across sectors. At LiveKit, whose open source stack launched in 2020 and underpins a cloud platform serving voice, video, and physical AI agents at global scale, he focuses on productizing ultra-low-latency infrastructure into practical tools for AI builders. Previously, as CEO at Canonical AI, he built “Mixpanel for Voice AI,” an analytics platform that mapped caller journeys across thousands of Voice AI calls to show where and why agents failed, enabling developers to systematically improve conversion and reliability. Between 2023 and 2025, Canonical AI processed large volumes of agent call transcripts and latency metrics, giving Voice AI teams a single interface to debug failure paths and unlock additional call volume from enterprise customers. His career highlights include founding and serving for 9 years as Co‑founder and CEO of Tule, a Y Combinator S14 company that commercialized UC Davis research into in‑field sensors that directly measure Actual Evapotranspiration (ETa) to guide irrigation decisions. From 2014 to 2023, Tule deployed research-based hardware and software across California specialty crops, with its sensors installed in commercial vineyards and orchards to quantify field‑scale water use and crop water stress, helping growers cut irrigation water use by material percentages while maintaining yields. In January 2023, CropX Technologies acquired Tule, adding its above‑canopy sensing technology to a global precision irrigation platform operating in more than 50 countries. Rising to prominence in the 2010s as an influential figure at the intersection of agricultural science and data infrastructure, he has since translated that domain expertise into Voice AI analytics and now into real‑time multimodal agent platforms. He remains closely connected to the Y Combinator alumni ecosystem, leveraging over a decade of founder experience—from PhD research commercialization to post‑acquisition leadership—to mentor teams building the next generation of agentic AI products. Listen on Apple Podcasts↗ and Spotify↗ The Most Dangerous Advantage a Founder Has Most people think that to start a company, you need experience. You want to know the pitfalls, the market dynamics, and exactly how the “game” is played. We vaunt experience as the ultimate shield against failure. But Tom Shapland, a decade-long founder turned Product Manager, fundamentally disagrees. He argues that the most important asset he had when starting his first company wasn’t his PhD or his technical expertise. It was his naivete. “The secret sauce I had is what every first-time founder has, and that is naivete,” Tom shared during our conversation. “You just don’t know how hard it’s gonna be. And you just think, oh, I can take on the world.” Here’s the thing: experience is often just a collection of reasons why something won’t work. When you’ve seen a dozen startups fail in a specific niche, you stop looking at that niche. When you know how hard it is to build a sales motion in a legacy industry like agriculture, you don’t even try. But the first-time founder doesn’t know better. They haven’t been burned by the reality of the 10-year grind, so they walk into the fire with a smile. Now, as a Product Manager at LiveKit—building the engine for the voice AI revolution—Tom brings a unique perspective. He *knows* how hard it is. He knows the luck involved. The challenge for the experienced operator is deliberately choosing to ignore those scars and find that same spirit of “delusional” confidence that made the first win possible. We often talk about “Product-Market Fit” as a destination. But looking at Tom’s journey with Tule, it’s clear that traction isn’t just a metric; it’s an unblocker. Before he had a product, he couldn’t find a co-founder. He couldn’t find investors. He couldn’t find employees. It was only when he stopped building and started pre-selling—getting farmers to sign up for a product that didn’t exist—that everything else fell into place. Traction unblocks the world. It’s the ultimate signal that your “side quest” is actually the main mission. As we move into a world where we can simply talk to our computers—where English is the new terminal—the role of the builder changes. Whether you’re a founder or a PM, the job is the same: have the clarity of thought and the naive courage to ask for what shouldn’t be possible yet. The Way of Product w/ Caden Damiano is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber. Get full access to The Way of Product w/ Caden Damiano at www.wayofproduct.com/subscribe

    40 min
  8. #156 How to Inspire, Align, and Amplify Innovative Teams w/ Keith Lucas, former CPO/CTO at Roblox

    21 JAN

    #156 How to Inspire, Align, and Amplify Innovative Teams w/ Keith Lucas, former CPO/CTO at Roblox

    Keith Lucas is a startup advisor specializing in product, growth, people, and culture who previously served as Chief Product Officer and Chief Technology Officer at Roblox, where he helped transform the platform into a global ecosystem for tens of millions of creators and players. Rising to prominence in the 2010s, he became known for building engines of innovation inside entrepreneurial teams, uniting long-term mission, values, and execution into a single operating system for high-output organizations. He is the author of Impact: How to Inspire, Align, and Amplify Innovative Teams, a 202-page playbook published in 2025 that codifies these practices for leaders across high-growth technology, gaming, and AI-driven companies. Previously, as Chief Product Officer and later Chief Technology Officer at Roblox, Lucas led the product and engineering organizations through one of the strongest multi-year growth runs in the company’s history, helping drive player and revenue expansion of roughly 300–400% year over year heading into 2016. He scaled the product organization from a single product manager and a small design and analytics group to a 30-person, data-driven team, while guiding engineering from bi-weekly releases to daily and weekly cadences across web and core client surfaces. During this period, he helped architect the platform’s shift to mobile-first growth, global game server distribution, and a more systematic approach to discovery and developer incentives, contributing to annual revenue that would later be reported in the billions of dollars as the company matured. His career highlights include serving as Chief Operating Officer at Instrumental, an AI-powered manufacturing intelligence company where he helped the business grow its customer base across consumer electronics, automotive, and medical devices as revenue expanded by an order of magnitude in the wake of its Intercept product launch. Over two decades in technology, he has held senior roles across engineering, operations, and business, from early-stage leadership at Roblox to advisory work with startups in AI, gaming, entertainment, and enterprise software, bringing a portfolio of experience that spans platform infrastructure, creator ecosystems, and go-to-market strategy. Lucas holds a Ph.D. in Aeronautics and Astronautics from Stanford University and a Master of Public Policy from the University of California, Berkeley, a combination that underpins his analytical approach to building enduring, institution-scale teams. As author of Impact: How to Inspire, Align, and Amplify Innovative Teams, he codifies a two-tier framework that helps leaders avoid stalled scaling, culture dilution, and loss of focus by treating culture as a system and leadership as a discipline. He now works directly with founders, CEOs, and executive teams as a trusted advisor, helping them design what he calls “engines of innovation” that can sustain compounding impact over decades rather than single funding cycles. Listen on Spotify Listen on Apple Podcasts Innovative teams do not stumble into great products They intentionally build engines of innovation in how they hire, promote, and operate day to day. Keith Lucas has seen both well run and badly run startups, and the pattern he cares about is deceptively simple: Purpose-driven companies that adopt a long-term, institution-building mindset have a structural edge over those optimized for short-term financial wins.​ When Keith thinks about building entrepreneurial teams, he looks for five “non-negotiables”: * Can this person elevate the team’s ability to create, innovate, or solve problems? * Do they align with the values? Do they want the same long term outcomes? * Do they believe in the mission? * Can they live with the team’s non-negotiable principles? * Do they meet the minimum standards of mastery and autonomy? Teams that take those standards seriously quickly surface who needs too much handholding or who does not care enough about quality, because the realized culture will not support them.​ Here’s a practical nugget you can take from this episode today (though I recommend you listen to the whole thing, it’s one of the best episodes on leadership) His favorite hiring and team staffing question for sussing out these non-negotiables is something I am going to steal: When you have a free moment at work, where does your mind go? The answer exposes intrinsic motivation, and great leaders use that signal to dial in roles so that enthusiasm, skill, and impact line up instead of grinding against each other.​ Underneath all of this is a simple thesis: if you want an engine of innovation, you need people who behave like mission athletes—mission driven, performance oriented, continuously growing, and elevating their peers—and you need to give them aligned autonomy instead of micromanaged checklists. This episode is for builders who care about creating something enduring rather than chasing short-term wins, and who are willing to design their hiring, culture, and leadership practices to match that ambition.​ Get full access to The Way of Product w/ Caden Damiano at www.wayofproduct.com/subscribe

    43 min

About

The Way of Product is your graduate school focused on developing a taste for what “great products” look like. Conversations are two professionals talking shop about positioning, segmentation, excellent product design, and most importantly, taste. www.wayofproduct.com