The Way of Product with Caden Damiano

Caden Damiano

The Way of Product is your graduate school focused on developing a taste for what “great products” look like. Conversations are two professionals talking shop about positioning, segmentation, excellent product design, and most importantly, taste. www.wayofproduct.com

  1. #156 How to Inspire, Align, and Amplify Innovative Teams w/ Keith Lucas, former CPO/CTO at Roblox

    21 JAN

    #156 How to Inspire, Align, and Amplify Innovative Teams w/ Keith Lucas, former CPO/CTO at Roblox

    Today’s guest is Keith Lucas—startup advisor, former CPO/CTO at Roblox and COO at Instrumental, and author of “Impact: How to Inspire, Align, and Amplify Innovative Teams” He builds engines of innovation inside entrepreneurial teams by aligning mission, values, and execution. Expect a principled, no‑BS playbook for hiring and developing “mission athletes,” creating aligned autonomy (not micromanagement), and turning taste and judgment into repeatable team performance. * Why he’s here: He’s scaled product and engineering orgs, then distilled those lessons into a clear operating system leaders can actually use. * What you’ll learn: The five non‑negotiables for hiring and promotion; how to design success criteria people can live by; the single interview question that reveals intrinsic motivation. * How to apply: Tighten your alignment stack (vision → mission → values → strategy → goals), run explicit feedback loops, and coach decisively when performance falters. Links Host Links * LinkedIn: Linkedin.com ↗ * Personal website: www.cadendamiano.com ↗ Show Links * Apple Podcasts↗ * Spotify↗ * www.wayofproduct.com ↗ Guest Links * Get the book: Impact: How to Inspire, Align, and Amplify Innovative Teams ↗ * Keith Lucas — LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kvlucas ↗ * Keith Lucas — Website: https://keithvlucas.com ↗ Timestamps: 01:17 Keith’s Career Journey at Robolox and what he is doing now01:51 The Concept of Influence02:09 Purpose and Its Importance03:29 Building a Team with Shared Beliefs07:57 The Role of Values in Team Success11:17 Realized Culture vs. Codified Culture15:57 Hiring for Innovation and Alignment22:27 Navigating Career Development40:58 Final Thoughts and Advice42:12 Conclusion and Sign Off Innovative teams do not stumble into great products They intentionally build engines of innovation in how they hire, promote, and operate day to day. Keith Lucas has seen both well run and badly run startups, and the pattern he cares about is deceptively simple: Purpose-driven companies that adopt a long-term, institution-building mindset have a structural edge over those optimized for short-term financial wins.​ When Keith thinks about building entrepreneurial teams, he looks for five “non-negotiables”: * Can this person elevate the team’s ability to create, innovate, or solve problems? * Do they align with the values? Do they want the same long term outcomes? * Do they believe in the mission? * Can they live with the team’s non-negotiable principles? * Do they meet the minimum standards of mastery and autonomy? Teams that take those standards seriously quickly surface who needs too much handholding or who does not care enough about quality, because the realized culture will not support them.​ Here’s a practical nugget you can take from this episode today (though I recommend you listen to the whole thing, it’s one of the best episodes on leadership) His favorite hiring and team staffing question for sussing out these non-negotiables is something I am going to steal: When you have a free moment at work, where does your mind go? The answer exposes intrinsic motivation, and great leaders use that signal to dial in roles so that enthusiasm, skill, and impact line up instead of grinding against each other.​ Underneath all of this is a simple thesis: if you want an engine of innovation, you need people who behave like mission athletes—mission driven, performance oriented, continuously growing, and elevating their peers—and you need to give them aligned autonomy instead of micromanaged checklists. This episode is for builders who care about creating something enduring rather than chasing short-term wins, and who are willing to design their hiring, culture, and leadership practices to match that ambition.​ This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.wayofproduct.com

    43 min
  2. #155 Building Traction in the Age of AI + How New Design Tools are Revolutionizing Hardware Development w/ Matthias Wagner Founder/CEO of Flux.ai

    19 JAN

    #155 Building Traction in the Age of AI + How New Design Tools are Revolutionizing Hardware Development w/ Matthias Wagner Founder/CEO of Flux.ai

    Matthias Wagner asked an Apple engineer about managing the iPhone supply chain. “What software do you use?” “What software? Cubicles full of people. Each one has a phone and a list of numbers. They call suppliers all day, updating a shared spreadsheet. One person can edit at a time.” That’s the terrain. Not what the frameworks say. Not what the business models teach. The actual terrain. Summer 2019, Matthias left Facebook to build electronics in his Oakland workshop. Got frustrated immediately. The tools hadn’t evolved since the mid-nineties. No version control, no collaboration, no automation. Just paper processes ported to Windows. The map said hardware was hard because manufacturing was expensive and inaccessible. He tested it. Ordered any semiconductor in the world to his backyard. Unit quantity: one. Seven-day turnaround from China. A few hundred dollars. The supply chain had democratized completely. The design tools hadn’t budged. At Facebook, machine learning had transformed everything. Why not here? A friend told him, “Matthias, you’ve been complaining about this all summer. Do something about it.” That’s Flux.ai. Making hardware design as accessible as software development. But here’s the pattern: most builders read the map and execute. Matthias walks the terrain and observes. The anecdotes don’t match the data. The frameworks don’t capture the friction. The best practices miss the opportunities. He doesn’t trust what frameworks say should be true. He tests what is actually true. Sources information directly. Builds messy models. Notices the friction everyone accepts as baseline. The map said hardware required massive capital and factory connections. The terrain showed the real constraint was tools nobody had fixed in thirty years. That gap between map and terrain? That’s where opportunities hide. Most product strategy happens in conference rooms. You fill out canvases and positioning statements. Run the plays from the playbook. But you’re optimizing against a map, not reality. The reality is cubicles and phone calls managing materials for the iPhone. The reality is CAD software that looks identical to 1995. The reality is sourcing spreadsheets with single-user edit locks in 2025. These aren’t exceptions. This is how things actually work. You can’t spot that from the map. You have to walk the terrain. Get your hands dirty. Build something yourself. Ask the engineer doing the work how they actually do it. Test your assumptions with first-hand experience. That’s how you develop real product sense. That’s how you see opportunities others miss by trusting frameworks that describe a world that doesn’t exist. The map is where you start. The terrain is where you build. Listen on Apple Podcasts ↗ or Spotify ↗ Guest: Matthias Wagner * LinkedIn: Matthias Wagner ↗ * Company: Flux.ai ↗ This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.wayofproduct.com

    47 min
  3. #154 Tactics for Product Launch Success & The Hidden Secrets of Making Products that "Just Work" w/ Dan De Mars, Head of Product at Current Backyard

    12 JAN

    #154 Tactics for Product Launch Success & The Hidden Secrets of Making Products that "Just Work" w/ Dan De Mars, Head of Product at Current Backyard

    Most teams aren’t doing the work to make a product launch successful. They’re pontificating in conference rooms. Debating specs. Trying to intellectually arrive at the right answer. The work looks different. The work looks different. Like Steve Jobs said, “There’s just a tremendous amount of craftsmanship in between a great idea and a great product… Designing a product is keeping 5,000 things in your brain and fitting them all together in new and different ways… And it’s that process that is the magic.” It looks like Dan De Mars and his team at Current Backyard are cooking 500 pizzas in two weeks. Prototyping. Testing with real data. Seeing if they can actually deliver before promising anything to the public. Crust thickness. Topping load. Heat curves. App guidance. Mouthfeel. Every variable they could isolate became another run, another data point, another step toward something that felt right—not just something that looked good in a deck. This is what intentional design actually looks like. Dan, head of product at Current Backyard ↗, doesn’t believe in perfection out of the gate. He believes in creating the conditions where a team can learn fast, fail often, and use their collective taste to sort signal from noise. The result? An electric pizza oven that lets a first-timer cook restaurant-quality pizza without the friction, the learning curve, or the open flame. But the insight goes beyond pizza ovens. Great products feel inevitable from the outside because teams did unreasonable amounts of work on the inside. They ran tight feedback loops. They invited more eyes. They treated taste as a filter over hundreds of experiments, not a single flash of genius. Dan also talks about designing for “limited grillers”—urban dwellers constrained by space, fire restrictions, or time—who still want great food without the heroics. It’s a masterclass in finding underserved segments and building for real constraints. If you’ve ever wondered how “it just works” products come together, this conversation is the blueprint. Listen on Apple Podcasts ↗ or Spotify ↗ Links Dan De Mars on Linkedin ↗ Current Backyard ↗ 00:00 The Essence of Design 01:17 The Journey of a Designer 02:17 Philosophy of Design 03:25 Unlearning and Relearning 09:44 Innovating Outdoor Cooking 18:41 Targeting the Modern Cook 25:56 Innovative Launches and Product Expansion 26:52 Competing with Convenience: The Pizza Oven 28:26 Designing for User Experience 31:05 Prototyping and Iteration Process 34:31 Balancing Functionality and Aesthetics 44:29 Final Thoughts and Future Directions This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.wayofproduct.com

    48 min
  4. #153 Exec's Guide to Streamlining AI Integration: Unlocking Speed and Innovation in Business w/ David Trier, VP of Product at ModelOp

    5 JAN

    #153 Exec's Guide to Streamlining AI Integration: Unlocking Speed and Innovation in Business w/ David Trier, VP of Product at ModelOp

    Enterprises do not have an AI problem; they have an AI governance problem. In my recent conversation with David Trier, VP of product at ModelOp, he described the current state inside large organizations as “the Wild West of AI”—dozens of teams, hundreds of tools, and no shared way to get models safely into production. The reality is that many enterprises are staring at portfolios of 50 to 100 generative AI use cases, but only a handful ever make it into production, often taking six to 18 months to ship. What clicked for me in this episode was David’s analogy: ModelOp is essentially ServiceNow for AI. ServiceNow gave IT leaders a consistent, auditable way to turn messy tickets into reliable service management. ModelOp does the same for AI initiatives: it sits at the enterprise layer, orchestrating 10 to 12 teams and systems—data, security, legal, risk, compliance, infrastructure—so AI projects move through a repeatable playbook instead of one-off review cycles. David walked through a financial-services case where this approach cut time-to-production in half, turning 18‑month science projects into AI services that ship in weeks and generate business value before models degrade. For product leaders and CTOs, the takeaway is simple: if AI is a C‑suite–sized investment, it needs C‑suite–grade governance, not grassroots experimentation scattered across the org. If you are thinking about how to move from proof‑of‑concept chaos to an enterprise AI operating model, this episode is worth your time. Listen on Apple Podcasts ↗ or Spotify ↗ Mentions * ModelOp ↗ * David Trier ↗ This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.wayofproduct.com

    47 min
  5. 01/12/2025

    #152 How AI has redefined Intercom's product strategy, team dynamics & pricing w/ Brian Donohue, VP of Product at Intercom

    Show Notes: In the latest episode of the Way of Product Podcast, I had the pleasure of chatting with Brian Donohue, Vice President of Product at Intercom. Brian has been a critical player at Intercom for over 11 years, where he has navigated the company’s growth and transformation, especially in the ever-evolving world of AI integration. Brian shared his insights and experiences in transforming product development at Intercom, focusing on building a Fin AI agent that’s set to redefine customer support. With over two years dedicated solely to AI, Brian discussed the company’s journey from its early machine learning beginnings to embracing large language models. Connect with Brian on LinkedIn Listen to The Way of Product: Apple Podcasts or Spotify Actionable Takeaways✅ Embrace the uncertainty and potential of AI-driven product innovation. ✅ Aligning incentives through outcome-based pricing instead of traditional SaaS models. ✅ Balancing traditional product management structures with innovative AI development approaches. Time Stamps 04:15 AI Integration in Product Development07:40 Architectural and Product Thinking in AI11:05 Challenges and Innovations in AI Implementation18:00 Continuous Improvement and Reassessment24:50 Inherited Product Design Flaws31:35 Technical Rigor and Product Validation37:10 Evolving Product Management Practices42:15 The Role of AI in Modern Product Development49:20 Outcome-Based Pricing Explained55:00 AI Transformation and R&D Services59:30 Adapting Product Development to Customer Needs66:45 Final Thoughts and Future Outlook70:20 Connecting with Brian Donahue This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.wayofproduct.com

    49 min
  6. #150 Thriving with ADHD: Entrepreneurship for Neurodivergent Minds w/ Jaime Toyne, ADHD Coach @ Flowjo

    10/11/2025

    #150 Thriving with ADHD: Entrepreneurship for Neurodivergent Minds w/ Jaime Toyne, ADHD Coach @ Flowjo

    This one myth, in my opinion, is the leading cause of burnout: Unless you aim for the highest role at a company, you’ve somehow failed. My next guest on The Way of Product Podcast, Jamie Toyne, challenges that idea. Jamie’s been there and done that. he’s been the CEO, sold the company, and travelled the world. The right fit might be coaching, consulting, or serving as the creative force behind someone else’s vision—like Jony Ive was to Steve Jobs. Following formulas that ignore your true nature leads to burnout and misalignment—success is not measured by title, but by how invigorating the work feels. Enzo Ferrari, James Dyson, Dietrich Mateschitz (Redbull), Jony Ive, didn’t optimize for careers that make a bunch of money, they did work they unlocked their talents, gave them energy to be creative during the hard times, and the structure their creative expression. If you are doing great work that aligns with your unique talents and values, the market will reward you, companies will fight to retain you, and people will want to invest or purchase what you build because you are involved. Turns out, great work is hard to come by, and putting someone who’s energy isn’t aligned with the work doesn’t lead to great work. This episode is for anyone who doesn’t feel like they are doing work that aligns with their wiring. I certainly benefited from the conversation. -CadenListen to The Way of Product: Apple Podcasts or Spotify In this episode, Jamie Toyne recounts his personal and professional journey with ADHD—from growing up in Australia, building a successful mergers and acquisitions firm in San Francisco, to starting an ADHD coaching career. Jamie experienced significant burnout, moved to Mexico, and later sold his business. He discusses the challenges and benefits of living with ADHD as a business leader, the importance of doing work that aligns with personal values, and how his coaching program helps people with ADHD perform better and prevent burnout. Jamie explores recent changes in how society understands ADHD, and what these shifts mean for modern workplaces. LinkedIn: https://au.linkedin.com/in/jamietoyne1 Free 1:1 ADHD Coaching Session: www.jamietoyne.com 00:30 Journey to San Francisco—and burnout 02:15 Life as a Digital Nomad 03:48 ADHD Diagnosis and Early Life 05:07 Tennis Career and Education 08:44 Entrepreneurial Challenges and Burnout 13:48 Balancing Ambition and Lifestyle 18:46 Reflecting on Business Structure and Superpowers 19:11 Dealing with Imposter Syndrome and Financial Decisions 20:35 Team Dynamics and Company Culture 22:50 Passion for Coaching and Exit Planning 26:50 ADHD and Leadership Challenges 33:14 Finding Flow and Realigning with Passion This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.wayofproduct.com

    41 min
  7. #149 How to Spot When the Data is Lying & The Most Effective Framework for Hypothesis-Driven Development w/ Kritarth Saurabh, VP of Product at Neat

    03/11/2025

    #149 How to Spot When the Data is Lying & The Most Effective Framework for Hypothesis-Driven Development w/ Kritarth Saurabh, VP of Product at Neat

    What happens when your biggest customer asks for a feature that seems perfectly rational—backed by data, supported by sales, and tied to six-figure deals? Kritarth Saurabh shares how Neat avoided the build trap by pausing to validate what customers actually needed versus what they requested. This conversation explores the difference between output-driven and outcome-driven roadmaps, and why the hardest word in product management isn’t “no”—it’s “wait.” Key Topics Discussed: * The Mural integration trap: How responding to customer feature requests can lead to becoming an integration factory * Output vs. outcome-driven roadmaps: Why shipping features fast matters less than scaling the right thing * The validation framework: Moving from idea to experiment to validated roadmap before building * Qualitative vs. quantitative data: When to trust customer anecdotes over usage metrics * Zero-to-one product development: Building without data in early-stage companies * Meeting equity and hybrid work: How Neat approaches designing for distributed teams * Simplicity in hardware: The phone camera principle and why accessibility beats perfection Key Quotes: “You gotta have the conviction to take a step back and say, look, what is the real outcome that I’m trying to drive here?” “If I had just spent maybe the next quarter validating this as an experiment...what they would’ve told me is they want App X, they want Figma, they want Y...This is not about just making the dollar signs with the mural. This is about the wider customer problem.” “The hardest word in product isn’t ‘no’—it’s ‘wait.’” “Often moving slow is a problem...but I think a bigger problem is not scaling the right thing.” Featured Story: The Mural Integration Decision: Kritarth details how a seemingly rational request for a Mural integration—backed by top-three usage data and tied to major deals—would have led Neat down the path of building an integration team that services infinite requests. By spending a quarter validating the underlying customer need, they discovered enterprises wanted workflow integration across their entire app ecosystem. This insight led to building an App Hub marketplace instead, creating a platform that scales exponentially rather than linearly. Resources Mentioned: * Book: Escaping the Build Trap by Melissa Perri * Neat’s App Hub marketplace * Product Kata framework About the Guest: Kritarth Saurabh is VP of Product Management at Neat, a video conferencing hardware company focused on simplicity and meeting equity. Before Neat, he spent years in consulting at Boston Consulting Group, Accenture, and Deloitte, working with Fortune 500 companies and startups on product development. He started his career as a software engineer and has experienced the full product lifecycle from ideation to sunsetting. Connect with Kritarth: https://www.linkedin.com/in/kritarthsaurabh/ About NeatNeat manufactures video conferencing devices designed to keep meetings simple and equitable, whether participants are in-office, remote, or hybrid. Their products include the Neat Board Pro, an all-in-one 65-inch integrated screen with camera and speaker capabilities. Subscribe: www.wayofproduct.com This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit www.wayofproduct.com

    43 min

About

The Way of Product is your graduate school focused on developing a taste for what “great products” look like. Conversations are two professionals talking shop about positioning, segmentation, excellent product design, and most importantly, taste. www.wayofproduct.com