Reconstructing Inclusion Podcast

Amri B. Johnson

The Reconstructing Inclusion Podcast goes far beyond what the host, Amri B. Johnson, considers redundant, how-to diversity, equity, and inclusion dialogues. He aims to create a space to speak the truth and examine context in DEI. This means creating a path forward for everyone to rethink and recognize the benefits of inclusion individually and collectively. Reconstructing in this sense is about creating organizational systems and networks where everyone belongs. reconstructinginclusion.substack.com

  1. 14 Aug

    Reconstructing Inclusion S3E13: Gamiel Yafai on Why Most Diversity and Inclusion Programs Were Never Built to Last

    Welcome to Season Three of Reconstructing Inclusion! Gamiel Yafai: Why Most Diversity and Inclusion Programs Were Never Built to Last "After 25 years running diversity maturity audits, Gamiel Yafai has learned that most organizations think they've embedded inclusion. They've barely gotten past awareness." In this episode, Amri Johnson sits down with EDI consultancy founder, Gamiel Yafai MBE to unpack why so much diversity and inclusion work stalls before it ever takes root, what real embedding looks like versus what only appears to be embedded, and what the rise of Reform means for practitioners on both sides of the Atlantic. Episode Timestamps: [00:02:00] - Gamiel introduces himself and his path into the diversity and inclusion space [00:05:00] - The teacher who shaped how Gamiel sees the world, and why polished shoes mattered [00:07:00] - Growing up across Scottish, Irish, Yemeni, Indian, Muslim, and Christian heritage in Birmingham [00:12:00] - Two and a half years in a Yemeni village, and the community that ran on shared crops [00:23:00] - Why organizations rate themselves at maturity level four and audit at level two [00:27:00] - The missing foundations behind most stalled diversity and inclusion strategies [00:33:00] - How a profitable, inclusive culture can still be dangerously homogeneous [00:37:00] - Evolution versus revolution: reading the rise of Reform through 25 years of history [00:44:00] - Advice for practitioners watching their roles and budgets disappear [00:48:00] - Why 85% of organizational change comes down to human behavior Standout Quotes: "I actually see the biggest gift I've ever been given is my heritage." [00:08:00] "You could say the awareness has improved. However, the embedding is still way off." [00:23:00] "I've always seen the work that we do around diversity and inclusion as being evolutionary. We evolve. However, we are going to see revolutions." [00:37:00] "The work that we do is simple. I genuinely believe it's simple. People complicate it." [00:49:00] Guest: Gamiel Yafai, CEO of Diversity Marketplace Connect with Gamiel Yafai: https://www.linkedin.com/in/linkedingamielyafai/ If this episode resonated with you, subscribe, leave a review, and share it with someone in your organization who needs to hear it. Let's Connect: https://inclusionwins.com/ https://reconstructinginclusion.substack.com/ ➡️ Subscribe to Reconstructing Inclusion for more unfiltered conversations about the future of diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI) This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit reconstructinginclusion.substack.com/subscribe

    Reconstructing Inclusion S3E13: Gamiel Yafai on Why Most Diversity and Inclusion Programs Were Never Built to Last

  2. 24 Jul

    Reconstructing Inclusion S3E12: Tracing Mattering Through Reconstructing Inclusion

    Welcome to Season Three of Reconstructing Inclusion! "What I didn't know while I was writing Reconstructing Inclusion is that the thing I was chasing had a name. That name is mattering." In this solo episode, Amri Johnson traces the concept of mattering backward through his book Reconstructing Inclusion, revealing that the argument he was always building was pointing toward mattering, long before he had language for it. From the critique of ceremonial DEI, to the social capital chapter, to a story about a pastor named Reverend John T. Olds, Amri shows how mattering was threaded through every chapter he wrote. He then makes the case for why mattering is not simply the next evolution of inclusion work, but the specific strategic variable organizations are missing right now in the age of AI disruption, geopolitical complexity, and eroding institutional trust. [00:05:00] - Reading from Reconstructing Inclusion: "death by a thousand platitudes" [00:07:00] - Deconstructing meritocracy and the system that routes significance through channels most can't access 00:10:0[0] - "Overstanding Exclusion" chapter and what anti-mattering actually is [00:12:00] - William James (1890) and the neuroscience of social exclusion [00:14:00] - The Social Capital chapter and the one sentence about mattering [00:19:00] - Why mattering is a strategic imperative now [00:22:00] - The data: 30% of employees feel invisible, 65% underappreciated, 82% lonely [00:25:00] - What the mattering infrastructure actually looks like [00:26:00] - Three leader behaviors: see and hear people, affirm significance, scale organizationally [00:30:00] - Organizational design as a mattering system [00:31:00] - The Mattering and Performance Audit: a diagnostic, not a DEI program "When AI handles an increasing share of execution, what gives people significance? What gives people meaning? What tells someone their presence in the organization creates something that would not exist without them?" [00:19:00] "The organizations that navigate this moment well won't just have better AI strategies or better geopolitical risk frameworks. They will have built the conditions where people believe their presence is significant enough to bring their full capacity to the problem." [00:25:00] If this episode resonated, the Mattering and Performance Audit is where the diagnostic work begins. Find out where trust, contribution, and significance are cracking before it shows up in your organization. Explore the audit: https://www.inclusionwins.com/mattering-and-performance-audit #Inclusion #Mattering #Leadership #Diversity #FutureofWork #AI #Belonging #DEI #ERGs #Trust ____________ Let's Connect: https://inclusionwins.com/ https://reconstructinginclusion.substack.com/ ➡️ Subscribe to Reconstructing Inclusion for more unfiltered conversations about the future of diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI) This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit reconstructinginclusion.substack.com/subscribe

    Reconstructing Inclusion S3E12: Tracing Mattering Through Reconstructing Inclusion

  3. 10 Jul

    Reconstructing Inclusion S3E11: You've Been Leading With the Box: Fred Falker on Seeing People First

    Welcome to Season Three of Reconstructing Inclusion! We're not divided by differences. We're separated by distance. Fred Falker joins Amri to unpack the distance paradigm and why most inclusion work has been solving the wrong problem entirely. Fred Falker is President of Falker Consulting Group, Inc. and former Director of Workforce Development for the Saint Louis Zoo. With more than 30 years as an organizational development consultant, he has spent the past twenty-five years developing a fundamentally new approach to diversity, equity, and inclusion that goes beyond anti-racism and unconscious bias training. Instead of focusing on differences between people, Fred focuses on the distance between them and the behaviors that drive genuine connection and belonging. In this episode, Amri and Fred explore: Why we've been putting the box before the person in inclusion work [00:13:00] How the distance paradigm reframes every conflict throughout history [00:18:00] What mattering actually means and why it's the foundation of belonging [00:43:00] The specific conditions that make people feel they matter at work [00:47:00] Real inclusion work requires connection, not judgment [01:15:00] Why the field stopped questioning itself and what transformation actually requires [01:07:00] What stands out in this conversation is how Fred bridges organizational reality with human truth. He doesn't speak in diversity frameworks or awareness metrics. He speaks in halfway houses, jazz ensembles, and the cost of being seen as an object instead of a person. And somehow, it all connects to why mattering is the only thing that actually builds belonging. Guest: Fred Falker, President of Falker Consulting Group, Inc. Connect with Fred Falker: https://www.linkedin.com/in/fredfalker/ If this episode resonated with you, subscribe, leave a review, and share it with someone in your organization who needs to hear it. Let's Connect: https://inclusionwins.com/ https://reconstructinginclusion.substack.com/ ➡️ Subscribe to Reconstructing Inclusion for more unfiltered conversations about the future of diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI) This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit reconstructinginclusion.substack.com/subscribe

    Reconstructing Inclusion S3E11: You've Been Leading With the Box: Fred Falker on Seeing People First

  4. 12 Jun

    Reconstructing Inclusion S3E10: The Brain Science Behind Why Belonging Matters More Than Diversity Numbers

    Welcome to Season Three of Reconstructing Inclusion! Your brain doesn't process exclusion differently from physical pain. Dr. Steve L. Robbins joins Amri to unpack the neuroscience of belonging and why most inclusion work has been measuring the wrong thing. Dr. Steve L. Robbins is a communication scientist, social psychologist, and cognitive neuroscientist who has spent decades studying human behavior. He's worked with Coca-Cola, Disney, Microsoft, NASA, the NBA, and dozens of other organizations. But his entry into this work wasn't academic. It was personal. And this conversation reflects that depth. In this episode, Amri and Steve explore: Why the early diversity movement built itself around the wrong indicator of justice [00:11:00] How the brain reduces every dimension of diversity to one binary: insider or outsider [00:10:00] The neuroscience behind why social exclusion is processed as physical pain [00:21:00] The Ancient Brain vs. Modern Brain model and how it drives reactive behavior at work [00:27:00] The HERO Skills framework: Humility, Empathy, Reflection, and Open-Mindedness [00:29:00] Why reflection is the foundational skill for intentional leadership [00:31:00] The rainbow trout story and what it really means to prepare an environment for inclusion [00:16:00] How storytelling is an underused inclusion technology in organizations [00:38:00] What stands out in this conversation is how Steve bridges hard science with plain language. He doesn't speak in abstractions. He speaks in sports analogies, pond fish, and the cost of walking on eggshells. And somehow, it all lands. Guest: Dr. Steve L. Robbins Connect with Dr. Steve L. Robbins: https://www.slrobbins.com/ If this episode resonated with you, subscribe, leave a review, and share it with someone in your organization who needs to hear it. Let's Connect: https://inclusionwins.com/ https://reconstructinginclusion.substack.com/ ➡️ Subscribe to Reconstructing Inclusion for more unfiltered conversations about the future of diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI) This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit reconstructinginclusion.substack.com/subscribe

    Reconstructing Inclusion S3E10: The Brain Science Behind Why Belonging Matters More Than Diversity Numbers

  5. 8 May

    Reconstructing Inclusion S3E9: The AI-Inclusion Gap Rarely Talked About

    Welcome to Season Three of Reconstructing Inclusion! Who's shaping the logic of AI systems — and who gets quietly failed when they work exactly as designed, just not for them? That's the inclusion gap Amri Johnson and Peter Swimm dig into in this conversation. Peter Swimm is the founder and CEO of Toilville and has spent over 25 years in conversational AI, building systems for companies like Walmart, Chipotle, and Lowe's before leading generative AI work at Microsoft Copilot Studio. He's one of the sharpest voices in the industry on where AI gets inclusion right — and where it doesn't. In this episode, Amri and Peter explore why diverse voices in tech need more than a seat at the table — they need actual influence over how systems get built. They get into the "Devon Avenue" framework for thinking about inclusive design, the accountability gap that shows up when AI fails real people, and why AI companies may need us more than we need them. What you'll hear: Why AI hallucinations are less a technical problem and more a people gap The difference between diversity in hiring and diversity in decision-making What "who's responsible when the decision is wrong?" looks like in practice Why building for failure from day one is an inclusion issue, not just an engineering one The data leverage argument: what it means that AI companies need fresh human data to stay relevant About the Guest Peter Swimm is the founder and CEO of Toilville, a consultancy helping organizations use AI without losing the institutional knowledge and human expertise that make them effective. He co-founded Talkabot, the industry's first dedicated conversational AI conference, and got his start teaching Chicago communities how to use the internet at the public library in 1996. Peter is a vocal advocate for ethical, human-centered AI — arguing that truly inclusive AI requires diverse voices shaping systems from the start, not just auditing for bias after the fact. Find him at toilville.com. #Inclusion #AI #Algorithm #Leadership #OrganizationalDesign #Diversity #Technology #FutureofWork #ConversationalAI If this episode got you thinking, share it with someone working in tech, HR, or DEI who hasn't yet grappled with what AI means for their work. Subscribe so you never miss an episode of Reconstructing Inclusion. Let's Connect: https://inclusionwins.com/ https://reconstructinginclusion.substack.com/ ➡️ Subscribe to Reconstructing Inclusion for more unfiltered conversations about the future of diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI) This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit reconstructinginclusion.substack.com/subscribe

    Reconstructing Inclusion S3E9: The AI-Inclusion Gap Rarely Talked About

  6. 10 Apr

    Reconstructing Inclusion S3E8: Your People Belong. But Do They Know They Matter?

    Welcome to Season Three of Reconstructing Inclusion! Most inclusion conversations focus on belonging. This episode makes the case that we've been stopping short. Belonging asks: Am I welcome here? Mattering asks: Am I consequential here? You can answer yes to the first and no to the second — and when that happens, something dims inside people that is hard to recover without intentional effort. Amri unpacks this distinction through a real story, research from organizational psychologists, and a practice you can use today. In this episode: 00:01:00 Introduction and why this conversation matters now 00:04:00 Belonging vs. mattering: the core distinction 00:06:00 Zach Mercurio's indispensability test 00:08:00 The grasp reflex: mattering as a survival instinct 00:10:00 The running faucet metaphor 00:15:00 Emotional intelligence as the infrastructure for mattering 00:17:00 The self-efficacy gap: awareness vs. agency 00:19:00 Cultural intelligence and making mattering portable 00:21:00 The EQ-CQ-mattering chain 00:23:00 The "If It Weren't for You" practice 🔥 Standout Quotes: “Most leaders I work with genuinely care about their people. But anti-mattering is rarely the result of one dramatic moment. It builds slowly, and by the time it shows up as silence or people going adrift or disengagement, the faucet has been running for a long time.” [00:11:48] “I’ve worked with highly self-aware people who couldn’t articulate their strengths clearly and consistently held back in high-stakes rooms. They just went silent, not because they lacked insight, but because they had stopped trusting that their contribution would change anything. The awareness was intact. The agency was not.” [00:17:46] #Inclusion #Leadership #Belonging #Diversity #Mattering #CulturalIntelligence #EmotionalIntelligence #CQ #EQ Resources Mentioned: Zach Mercurio’s work on mattering, including the “noticed, affirmed, and needed” framework Isaac Prilleltensky on mattering as feeling valued and adding value Gordon Flett’s research on anti-mattering Daniel Goleman’s emotional intelligence (EQ) framework Cultural intelligence (CQ) framework by Soon Ang, Linn Van Dyne, and David Livermore Let's Connect: https://inclusionwins.com/ https://reconstructinginclusion.substack.com/ ➡️ Subscribe to Reconstructing Inclusion for more unfiltered conversations about the future of diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI) This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit reconstructinginclusion.substack.com/subscribe

    Reconstructing Inclusion S3E8: Your People Belong. But Do They Know They Matter?

  7. 13 Mar

    Reconstructing Inclusion S3E7: Designing Inclusion from the Inside Out with Dr. Jennifer Sarrett

    Welcome to Season Three of Reconstructing Inclusion! What if DEI was built the same way curb cuts were — designed for the most excluded and better for everyone as a result? In this episode, Amri Johnson sits down with Dr. Jennifer Sarrett, founder of Disruptive Inclusion, to explore why the inclusion field keeps falling short — and what a proactive, evidence-based alternative looks like. Dr. Jennifer Sarrett brings a rare combination of backgrounds: autism advocacy, bioethics, medical anthropology, and public health. Her methodology, Organizational Culture Design, draws from Universal Design principles to build workplaces where access and belonging are built in from the start — not bolted on after a crisis. 🔥 Standout Quotes: “How can we predict where there might be barriers to somebody or a type of person? And go ahead and design to increase accessibility that will funnel down or trickle down to increase accessibility for everybody. Without making it more difficult for anybody.” [00:08:00] “The efforts often aren’t embedded. So they’re training programs, one-off things that aren’t really tracked internally or actually turned into action. The field of DEI isn’t very good at explaining to those in power how it works for them as well.” [00:28:00] In This Episode: [00:02:00] Introducing Dr. Jennifer Sarrett and her background [00:08:00] Universal Design — what it is and why DEI needs it [00:13:00] Reactive vs. proactive inclusion — where the field has gone wrong [00:20:00] Social determinants vs. identity-category thinking [00:28:00] What DEI got wrong about communicating to those in power [00:35:00] Why research has to come before solutions About the Guest Dr. Jen Sarrett is the founder of Disruptive Inclusion, an organizational culture strategy firm. With a PhD in Interdisciplinary Studies, her work bridges systems thinking, social science, and public health to solve complex people challenges. She also publishes Science of High Performance, a weekly newsletter on culture design in health and science. Website: disruptiveinclusion.com Personal site: jennifersarrett.com LinkedIn: Jennifer Sarrett #Inclusion #DEI #Leadership #OrganizationalDesign #Diversity #Neurodivergence Let's Connect: https://inclusionwins.com/ https://reconstructinginclusion.substack.com/ ➡️ Subscribe to Reconstructing Inclusion for more unfiltered conversations about the future of diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI) This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit reconstructinginclusion.substack.com/subscribe

    Reconstructing Inclusion S3E7: Designing Inclusion from the Inside Out with Dr. Jennifer Sarrett

  8. 13 Feb

    Reconstructing Inclusion S3E6: Moving Beyond Legal Defenses to Build Capable Organizations

    Welcome to Season Three of Reconstructing Inclusion! In this solo episode, I break down why DEI didn't collapse because of courtroom battles or political backlash. It collapsed because the field stopped evolving. While we were busy seeking legal cover and worrying about what would hold up in court, something more consequential was happening inside organizations: sense-making was deteriorating, trust was thinning, and people increasingly felt replaceable. The question now isn't whether DEI was lawful. The question is whether we're willing to evolve the field or just repackage the last 40 years of work and call it progress. 🔥 Standout Quotes: "It's not the Trump administration that took down DEI in its entirety. The Trump administration came when it was politically expedient and then basically threw gasoline on a fire that was already burning." [00:11:00] "Inclusion at its core is about sense-making. About making sense of the world, of each other, of our teams, of our organization. Understanding that the organization is all working in concert to create the conditions for everyone to do their best work and for the organization to fulfill on its mission." [00:17:00] Resources Mentioned: Reconstructing Inclusion by Amri Johnson How Equality Wins by Kenji Yoshino and David Glasgow Lily Zheng’s “FAIR Framework” The Emergent Inclusion Framework In This Episode: [00:02:00] The damage that's already been done [00:05:00] When sense-making declines [00:08:00] Why we asked compliance to do the work of culture and capability [00:11:00] Trump administration threw gasoline on a fire that was already burning [00:13:00] How disagreement became treated as risk rather than data [00:16:00] Introducing Emergent Inclusion [00:17:00] The four questions [00:22:00] When inclusion works... [00:23:00] The choice: defensible or functional? #Inclusion #DEI #Leadership #OrganizationalDevelopment #Diversity #Trump Let's Connect: https://inclusionwins.com/ https://reconstructinginclusion.substack.com/ ➡️ Subscribe to Reconstructing Inclusion for more unfiltered conversations about the future of diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI) This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit reconstructinginclusion.substack.com/subscribe

    Reconstructing Inclusion S3E6: Moving Beyond Legal Defenses to Build Capable Organizations
See All (47)

Ratings & Reviews

5
out of 5
2 Ratings

About

The Reconstructing Inclusion Podcast goes far beyond what the host, Amri B. Johnson, considers redundant, how-to diversity, equity, and inclusion dialogues. He aims to create a space to speak the truth and examine context in DEI. This means creating a path forward for everyone to rethink and recognize the benefits of inclusion individually and collectively. Reconstructing in this sense is about creating organizational systems and networks where everyone belongs. reconstructinginclusion.substack.com

Information