Two by Two

The Ken

The Two by Two podcast is a premium business podcast from The Ken that investigates, discusses and breaks down the most important business stories around you. Hosted from The Ken's newsroom by business journalists Rohin Dharmakumar and Praveen Gopal Krishnan, Two by Two will feature guests and experts from across the industry and academia to talk about issues no one else is talking about.

  1. What Peak XV's partner exodus says about VC economics

    26 FEB

    What Peak XV's partner exodus says about VC economics

    Quick question: Would you give someone your money for ten years if they promised you'd get back roughly what an FD would give you? And they'd also take 2% of your money every single year, no matter what happens, plus 20% of any profits at the end. You'd laugh them out of the room, right? Well, that's venture capital. Peak XV lost three of its partners. Ashish Agarwal who backed Groww, Ishan Mittal who invested in Razorpay and Tejasvi Sharma who bet on Cred. These guys crushed it and they still walked out over "disagreements on economics and payouts." That's when we realized: this isn't a Peak XV problem but a VC industry problem that nobody wants to admit. So we brought in Mayank Bansal, a hedge fund manager who pulled the actual numbers: Crisil data, Peak XV's fund performance, small cap index returns, FDs. All of it. Joining us is also Arundhati Ramanathan, deputy editor at The Ken, who's been tracking these partner exits closely. Mayank's take? "What is happening in the VC industry currently is they are charging the profit shares of that Medallion fund while returning less than index funds, which is blasphemous." Most Indian VC funds are charging 36% profit share to deliver 12% returns while a small cap index fund gave 13.35% over the same period which you can withdraw anytime. So why do the smartest investors in the world keep putting money into this? Why does two and twenty still exist? Fair warning, this episode is number-heavy. We've linked the reports in the show notes so you can follow along. But the punchline is simple: venture capital in India might just be an overpriced underperforming asset class nobody's willing to admit is broken. Listen to find out why the exits are just beginning.____ Additional resources:1. Accel India's fund returns (Newcomer, paywalled) 2. Crisil's AIF Benchmarks Report 3. Indian VCs’ boss wants them to take a pay cut by Arundhati Ramanathan 4. India's VCs are getting disrupted… by India's tax-payers by Praveen Gopal Krishnan 5. The invisible whale that capsized India’s leaky options boats- Two by Two episode 51____ This episode was produced by Uddantika Kashyap. If you liked this episode, share it with your friends, family and colleagues. And if you have thoughts on the discussion, write to us at twobytwo@the-ken.com. 🚨The Ken's Zero Shot podcast is hosting a live event! This is a speculative yet realistic discussion built around one premise: what happens when AI agents take off in India? How will they rewire existing habits, business models and profit pools? Since nobody knows for sure, we won't pretend to have all the answers. Instead we are going to break the narrative. Click here for details.

    1hr 20min
  2. What a global investor really thinks about India's next decade

    19 FEB

    What a global investor really thinks about India's next decade

    If you are in your 20s or 30s in India right now, things probably feel a little weird. The headlines say the country is a rocket ship, but your reality might be hiring freezes and stagnant salaries. To understand why, we sat down with someone who actually moves the money. Since the 1990s, Rohit Chopra, portfolio manager/analyst at Lazard Asset Management, has managed billions of dollars across emerging markets: from Brazil to Korea to China and India. He doesn't look at the Indian market with pride or pessimism but with one question: is this the best place on Earth for his clients' money right now? In this episode of Two by Two, Rahel Philipose and Rohin Dharmakumar dig into Rohit’s playbook. They discuss how he identifies "the Holy Grail" of businesses, why capital has been leaving India recently, and which sectors will actually define the next decade.  If you have ever wanted to sit across from a global fund manager and get the uncomfortable truth about where India really stands, this is the conversation you’ve been waiting for.______ This episode was produced by Uddantika Kashyap and mixed and mastered by Rajiv CN, our resident sound engineer. If you liked this episode, share it with your friends, family and colleagues. And if you have thoughts on the discussion, write to us at twobytwo@the-ken.com. 🚨The Ken's Zero Shot podcast is hosting a live event! This is a speculative yet realistic discussion built around one premise: what happens when AI agents take off in India? How will they rewire existing habits, business models and profit pools? Since nobody knows for sure, we won't pretend to have all the answers. Instead we are going to break the narrative. Click here for details.

    58 min
  3. Ranking TCS, Infosys, Wipro, HCL: Who thrives and who survives in the AI era?

    12 FEB

    Ranking TCS, Infosys, Wipro, HCL: Who thrives and who survives in the AI era?

    Last week, nearly ₹2 lakh crore vanished from Indian IT stocks in just four days. A big reason was Anthropic's new product, Claude Cowork. Suddenly investors were confronted with an unsettling reality: what if the work Indian IT has long depended on is now the easiest to automate? For almost 20 years, India's IT giants have been unstoppable compounding machines. They built empires worth hundreds of billions of dollars by doing one thing very well: renting out smart people by the hour to write code and run technology for Western clients. But when code starts to write itself, what happens to these companies? Conversations about IT services usually lump all these firms together, as if they are the same business with different logos.  In this episode, we break them apart. We ask a simple but uncomfortable question: in an AI-first world, who thrives and who gets left behind? We take five of the biggest IT services firms in India's orbit—TCS, Infosys, Wipro, HCL Tech and Cognizant—and rank them on who is best placed right now for what's coming next. Spoiler: the answer is not what the last 20 years of market-cap tables would suggest. To do this, we brought in two people who have lived this industry from the inside. Krishnakumar Natarajan co-founded Mindtree in 1999 and built it into a multi-billion dollar global IT services firm. He later chaired NASSCOM and now runs Mela Ventures, where he backs early-stage deep tech and enterprise startups. Vivek Kant spent over two decades in IT services across Tech Mahindra and Cognizant, then moved to the other side of the table as CTO at Bajaj Markets and as an advisor at Boston Consulting Group. He still codes 3-4 hours a day using AI. You can check out his blogs here. The board is set. The King, the Rook, the Knight, and the Bishop. The question is: who makes the first move?_________ This episode of Two by Two was produced by Uddantika Kashyap and mixed and mastered by Rajiv CN, our resident sound engineer.  If you liked this episode, share it with your friends and colleagues. And if you have thoughts on the discussion, write to us at twobytwo@the-ken.com. 🚨The Ken's Zero Shot podcast is hosting a live event! This is a speculative yet realistic discussion built around one premise: what happens when AI agents take off in India? How will they rewire existing habits, business models and profit pools? Since nobody knows for sure, we won't pretend to have all the answers. Instead we are going to break the narrative. Click here for details.

    1hr 18min
  4. Who is the entry-level software engineer now?

    5 FEB

    Who is the entry-level software engineer now?

    Software engineering as we knew it is over and the entry-level job has vanished. So what do you tell someone graduating today? This question splits even the experts. Arnav Gupta, Engineering Manager at Meta and co-founder of Coding Blocks, argues the knowledge must compress. He says that the future belongs to those who adapt fast and embrace the AI tools.Meanwhile Abhay Saraf, Director at Bushel Technologies and ex-Microsoft, pushes back hard. He believes you cannot build a calculator and stop teaching multiplication. The fundamentals matter more than ever, even if it takes longer to learn them. Together with co-hosts Praveen Gopal Krishnan and Rahel Philipose, they break down what skills actually matter now, why typing still beats voice coding, and whether engineering college should be two years or ten. The answers might surprise you._____ Similar episode:Episode 6 Is the golden era of the (software) engineer over? This episode of Two by Two was produced by Uddantika Kashyap and mixed and mastered by Rajiv CN, our resident sound engineer. If you liked this episode, share it with your friends and colleagues. And if you have thoughts on the discussion, write to us at twobytwo@the-ken.com. 🚨The Ken's Zero Shot podcast is hosting a live event! This is a speculative yet realistic discussion built around one premise: what happens when AI agents take off in India? How will they rewire existing habits, business models and profit pools? Since nobody knows for sure, we won't pretend to have all the answers. Instead we are going to break the narrative. Click here for details.

    1hr 20min
  5. PhonePe dominates payments but loses money. Now what?

    29 JAN

    PhonePe dominates payments but loses money. Now what?

    PhonePe leads nearly half of India's UPI transactions, but as it gears up for a $1.3 billion IPO, a tough question looms: can a company built to defend its lead ever learn to make real profit? In this episode, Rohin Dharmakumar argues that PhonePe's dominance might actually be a strategic trap. With zero-margin transactions and shifting regulations, the next ten years cannot look like the last. To win, PhonePe must decide whether it's willing to risk its crown to become a bold market creator. Will it evolve into an aggressive disruptor like Zomato, or remain a safe, boring utility like PayPal? Joining co-hosts Rohin Dharmakumar and Praveen Gopal Krishnan is Arundhati Ramanathan, Deputy Editor at The Ken and resident fintech expert. Arundhati recently published a story on January 26 titled 'Should PhonePe be worth more than Paytm's $7.9B?' which dives deep into the company's valuation puzzle. We also introduce a new voice to the 2x2 team: Rahel Philipose joins as our third co-host to help unravel the cultural and strategic shifts required for PhonePe's survival. This episode of Two by Two was produced by Uddantika Kashyap mixed and mastered by Rajiv CN, our resident sound engineer. If you liked this episode, please share it with your friends and colleagues. And if you have thoughts on the discussion, write to us at twobytwo@the-ken.com. ----------Additional resources: - Platform ambitions: The story of how Ispirit lost its true north by Rohin Dharmakumar- The unlikely story of BHIM, the upsetter of plans by Arundhati Ramanathan- Naryana Health's Viren Shetty on learning 'how much insurance is about selling and how little about health' by Seema Singh- Two by Two episode 1: Will Flipkart become Phonepe before Phonepe becomes flipkart? 🚨The Ken's Zero Shot podcast is hosting a live event! This is a speculative yet realistic discussion built around one premise: what happens when AI agents take off in India? How will they rewire existing habits, business models and profit pools? Since nobody knows for sure, we won't pretend to have all the answers. Instead we are going to break the narrative. Click here for details.

    1hr 7min
  6. With Noice, Swiggy picks the 3rd path in quick commerce

    22 JAN

    With Noice, Swiggy picks the 3rd path in quick commerce

    Swiggy has launched Noice, a private label brand that's popping up across categories on Instamart. But is this a genuine brand-building play or just another experiment destined for Swiggy's product graveyard? In this episode, co-hosts Praveen Gopal Krishnan and Rohin Dharmakumar are joined by Sandeep Nair, co-founder of brand strategy consultancy David & Who and former Swiggy marketing director, and Mrunmayi Oke, SVP of Strategy at Zilo and former head of business at Dunzo. Together, they debate whether Noice is Swiggy's answer to Kirkland or closer to Amazon Solimo with ‘truck-style’ packaging. The conversation explores short-term performance metrics and long-term brand building, why most private labels fail, what makes retailers like Costco and Aldi succeed, and whether Swiggy has the organisational discipline to stick with this strategy. They also discuss the economics of private labels and what it takes to build a brand that consumers actually trust.____ This episode of Two by Two was produced by Uddantika Kashyap and mixed and mastered by Rajiv CN, our resident sound engineer. If you liked this episode, please share it with your friends and colleagues. And if you have thoughts on the discussion, write to us at twobytwo@the-ken.com.____ Additional reading: 1. Swiggy used to be a playground for innovation. Now, it’s a graveyard by Gaurav Bagur 2. Pepsi’s biggest bottler is pouring more cola to fight Reliance’s Campa by Aakriti Bhalla 3.  Two by Two episode 5- Swiggy needs to reclaim its past glory 4. Two by Two episode 26- Zomato, Swiggy, and the rise of the 10-minute "dark" cafe 5. Two by Two episode 45- Are we seeing the unbundling of quick commerce? 6. Two by Two episode 72- Can Urban Company avoid BigBasket’s fate? 🚨The Ken's Zero Shot podcast is hosting a live event! This is a speculative yet realistic discussion built around one premise: what happens when AI agents take off in India? How will they rewire existing habits, business models and profit pools? Since nobody knows for sure, we won't pretend to have all the answers. Instead we are going to break the narrative. Click here for details.

    1hr 21min
  7. 2025 Year-end special

    25/12/2025

    2025 Year-end special

    2025 is done. Forty-eight episodes. Hundreds of guests. Endless banter between Rohin and Praveen. This year, Two by Two covered stories from Bengaluru to the world including business, tech, and everything in between. We didn't just stick to the usual. We asked about people, trends, and the things others weren't paying attention to. We brought on guests who didn't rehearse their answers and tried to make sense of things as they happened. Some episodes turned out to be prescient. Some were messy. Some sparked arguments in our inbox. All of them tried to do what we set out to do: spot hidden connections, ask unasked questions, and figure out what's really going on. This final episode is Rohin looking back at six moments from the year with clips from conversations that stood out. Between each one, he adds context and some behind-the-scenes perspective on why it mattered. Here are the episodes featured: Episode 26: Zomato, Swiggy, and the rise of the 10-minute "dark" caféEpisode 31: Airtel fights spammers. And Truecaller's business modelEpisode 47: Who broke Bengaluru, and how do we fix our cities?Episode 50: In an AI age, India does not have an open source strategyEpisode 51: The invisible whale that capsized India's leaky options boatsEpisode 66: What will bring ambition back from the dead?To everyone who listened, argued with us, sent guest suggestions, or just stuck around, thank you. Next year, we're coming back with everything that makes Two by Two what it is, but bigger and better. Maybe even a few surprises. Stay tuned. There won't be an episode next Thursday. We will return on January 8th, 2026. See you in the new year.________ This episode was produced by Uddantika Kashyap and mixed and mastered by Rajiv CN, our resident sound engineer. If you liked this episode of Two by Two, please share it with your friends, family and colleagues who would be interested in listening. If you have suggestions for guests, episodes or even changes we could make. Please write to us at twobytwo@the-ken.com or comment below. 🚨The Ken's Zero Shot podcast is hosting a live event! This is a speculative yet realistic discussion built around one premise: what happens when AI agents take off in India? How will they rewire existing habits, business models and profit pools? Since nobody knows for sure, we won't pretend to have all the answers. Instead we are going to break the narrative. Click here for details.

    55 min
  8. 60 seconds for every 2025 episode

    18/12/2025

    60 seconds for every 2025 episode

    As we try to wind down this year, Rohin and Praveen do something they’ve never done before: go through every single episode they recorded this year. All 48 of them. In 60 minutes. The rules were simple. Each host had 10 points to build their personal top 10 list for the year. No take-backs, and no pre-discussion. It was a completely live, vibe-based recording where they figured it out as they went. What follows is a rapid-fire sprint through the year. From Amazon India’s struggles to the electric car slowdown, from B-school placements to the rise of quick commerce dark stores, and from Razorpay versus Juspay to the chaos of concert infrastructure in India. They cover it all—the hits, the misses, the prescient calls, and the episodes they wish had gone differently. Along the way, they debate whether episodes were too speculative, too early, or just not memorable enough. By the end, they’re locked in a tight race with only five episodes left and one point each remaining. Because it wouldn't be Two by Two without a matrix, we plotted the results of their debate. Take a look at the graphic to see which episodes they both loved (the green zone) versus their personal favourites. It is chaotic, nostalgic, and a perfect preview of what 2025 looked like through the lens of Two by Two. ______ This episode was produced by Uddantika Kashyap and mixed and mastered by Rajiv CN, our resident sound engineer. With 48 episodes in the books, this is the perfect starting point for anyone looking to catch up on the defining business stories of 2025. If you liked this sprint through the year, please share it with someone who loves a good deep dive. Have your own "vibe-based" arguments about our list? We’re all ears. Reach out at twobytwo@the-ken.com or leave a comment. 🚨The Ken's Zero Shot podcast is hosting a live event! This is a speculative yet realistic discussion built around one premise: what happens when AI agents take off in India? How will they rewire existing habits, business models and profit pools? Since nobody knows for sure, we won't pretend to have all the answers. Instead we are going to break the narrative. Click here for details.

    55 min
  9. Deepavali Break

    23/10/2025

    Deepavali Break

    Two by Two

    1 min
  10. No Explainers, No Takeaways: One Year of Two by Two

    31/07/2025

    No Explainers, No Takeaways: One Year of Two by Two

    Join Rohin and Praveen as they celebrate the one-year anniversary of the 2x2 podcast, reflecting on 52 episodes of business and strategy discussions. This special ‘vibes’ episode looks back at their journey creating Two by Two, the evolution of the show, and future plans, deviating from their usual topic-focused format. Praveen shares key meta-narratives he picked from the past year, including a "desperation-driven convergence" where companies like Flipkart and Phonepe try to become each other. He also highlights themes such as the government shaping markets as a "competitor" or through "artificial constraints", and a "great career existential crisis" impacting roles from engineers to marketers. Other themes include the "destruction and retreat of big tech in India", the podcast's contrarian framing of topics, and a focus on India's "livability crisis", addressing issues like urban infrastructure and air pollution. We’d love to hear what you think about Two by Two as well. You can write to us at twobytwo@the-ken.com. 🚨The Ken's Zero Shot podcast is hosting a live event! This is a speculative yet realistic discussion built around one premise: what happens when AI agents take off in India? How will they rewire existing habits, business models and profit pools? Since nobody knows for sure, we won't pretend to have all the answers. Instead we are going to break the narrative. Click here for details.

    1hr 12min
  11. 2024 Year-end special

    26/12/2024 ·  BONUS

    2024 Year-end special

    Welcome to the year-end special edition of Two by Two. We’ve released 22 episodes of Two by Two since our inaugural edition in July.  We’ve covered an incredible breadth of counterintuitive topics framed as, well, two by twos.  Would Flipkart become Phonepe before Phonepe became Flipkart? Did Delhi prick Bengaluru’s bubble? Is the golden era of the software engineer over? Why is health insurance broken? How will Ola and Uber avoid ‘death by a thousand cuts’? Why is Zepto behaving like a gold medallist? Can venture capitalists do no wrong? Dmart versus the challengers at the gates. AI and the impending disruption of Indian SaaS.  We’ve had incredible fun exploring these ideas with a bunch of really sharp, experienced and opinionated guests.  Finding guests who don’t hesitate to speak their minds and state unpopular truths has been one of the hardest things. Far, far tougher than finding interesting topics. We owe all our guests a huge thanks for trusting us. Far too many professionals and leaders prefer to stick to rehearsed and predictable talking points in public these days. We’d started Two by Two with the ambition to operate at the intersection of curiosity and synthesis. Each week, we said we’d spot the hidden connections and unasked questions. We’d identify the cast of players and their motivations.  We’d bring in incredible people to discuss these with. We’d try to answer simple yet fundamental questions like, what is going on, why is it happening, who gains and who loses, and where is all of this leading to? By always asking questions. Always connecting the dots. Always being unfiltered and uninhibited. We wanted Two by Two to be ‘your personal investigative brain’.  In 2025 we hope to make Two by Two even more interesting and unpredictable. Yes, at its core it will still be a weekly podcast. But I’m excited at the possibility of doing so much more by involving our subscribers, listeners and readers in these endeavours.  We want to make Two by Two ‘our collective investigative brain’.  And hosts Rohin Dharmakumar and Praveen Gopal Krishnan will continue to do so with a new episode every Thursday. To listen to all episodes of Two by Two, consider subscribing to The Ken’s Premium plan, which in addition to the podcast, will also get you access to our long-form stories, Premium newsletters and visual stories. If you just want access to Two by Two, you can do that as well on Apple Podcasts with a paid subscription. Two by Two is also a free weekly newsletter published every Friday. You can sign up for it here.   Listen to all Two by Two episodes here: 1. Will Flipkart become Phonepe before Phonepe becomes Flipkart? - https://the-ken.com/podcasts/two-by-two/will-flipkart-become-phonepe-before-phonepe-becomes-flipkart/ 2. Why has all the excitement and disruption gone out of startups? - https://the-ken.com/podcasts/two-by-two/why-has-all-the-excitement-and-disruption-gone-out-of-startups/ 3. Is Zepto a gold medallist or a bronze medallist? - https://the-ken.com/podcasts/two-by-two/is-zepto-a-gold-medalist-or-a-bronze-medalist/ 4. Delhi pricked the Bengaluru bubble -  https://the-ken.com/podcasts/two-by-two/delhi-pricked-the-bangalore-bubble/ 5. Swiggy needs to reclaim its past glory - https://the-ken.com/podcasts/two-by-two/swiggy-needs-to-reclaim-its-past-glory/ 6. Is the golden era of the (software) engineer over? - https://the-ken.com/podcasts/two-by-two/is-the-golden-era-of-the-software-engineer-over/ 7. Google Pay: Big. Successful. Vulnerable - https://the-ken.com/podcasts/two-by-two/google-pay-big-successful-vulnerable/ 8. Private coaching is eating away at schooling - https://the-ken.com/podcasts/two-by-two/private-coaching-is-eating-away-at-schooling/ 9. Why Stripe could not become the Stripe of India? - https://the-ken.com/podcasts/two-by-two/why-couldnt-stripe-become-the-stripe-of-india/ 10. Health insurance in India is ripe for disruption - https://the-ken.com/podcasts/two-by-two/health-insurance-is-ripe-for-disruption/ 11. Netflix and its last growth market - https://the-ken.com/podcasts/two-by-two/netflixs-last-growth-market/ 12. Ather Energy was a pioneer. Can it also be a leader? - https://the-ken.com/podcasts/two-by-two/ather-energy-was-a-pioneer-can-it-also-be-a-leader/ 13. Do we even need Product Managers? - https://the-ken.com/podcasts/two-by-two/do-we-even-need-product-managers/ 14. How will Ola and Uber avoid ‘death by a thousand cuts’? - https://the-ken.com/podcasts/two-by-two/how-will-ola-and-uber-avoid-death-by-a-thousand-cuts/ 15. The relentless rise of the government as a competitor - https://the-ken.com/podcasts/two-by-two/the-relentless-rise-of-the-government-as-a-competitor/ 16. What does the future hold for Ola Electric? - https://the-ken.com/podcasts/two-by-two/what-does-ola-electrics-future-hold/ 17. Can venture capitalists do no wrong? - https://the-ken.com/podcasts/two-by-two/can-venture-capitalists-do-no-wrong/ 18. Dmart versus the challengers at the gate - https://the-ken.com/podcasts/two-by-two/dmart-versus-the-challengers-at-the-gate/ 19. Marketing is eating itself from the inside - https://the-ken.com/podcasts/two-by-two/marketing-is-eating-i...

    56 min
  12. Happy Deepavali!

    31/10/2024 ·  BONUS

    Happy Deepavali!

    Happy Deepavali, dear listeners! On account of Deepavali, the Two by Two team is also taking a small break. But don't worry; we'll be back with our regular programming next week. Until then, you can always listen to past episodes of Two by Two that you haven't gotten around to yet. If you're a Premium subscriber listening to this on The Ken’s mobile app or on Apple podcasts, you can just scroll down and listen to any of our episodes in their full, unedited form. On the other hand, if you aren’t a premium subscriber yet, you can listen to one of our older episodes which we’ve unlocked for you.  In fact, in the latest unlocked episode, we argue, debate, and discuss what Netflix needs to do to win in its last growth market — India. Netflix's last growth market. (Full republished episode for free users available on Spotify | Apple Podcasts | Amazon Music | Youtube) By the way, if you’re in the mood for something other than two-by-twos and business models, why don’t you head over to Daybreak, The Ken’s daily podcast? Just last week, our colleagues Snigdha and Rahel did an amazing episode where they spoke to multiple people to understand why women freeze their eggs. Successful women are freezing their eggs. And that's on men. (Spotify | Apple Podcasts | Amazon Music | YouTube Music) If you have suggestions for potential future episodes, we’re all ears. We’re also all ears if you have recommendations for interesting guests we can invite to the show—guests who know their stuff and aren’t afraid to speak their minds, even if it goes against conventional wisdom. Write to us at twobytwo@the-ken.com. 🚨The Ken's Zero Shot podcast is hosting a live event! This is a speculative yet realistic discussion built around one premise: what happens when AI agents take off in India? How will they rewire existing habits, business models and profit pools? Since nobody knows for sure, we won't pretend to have all the answers. Instead we are going to break the narrative. Click here for details.

    3 min
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Hosts & Guests

About

The Two by Two podcast is a premium business podcast from The Ken that investigates, discusses and breaks down the most important business stories around you. Hosted from The Ken's newsroom by business journalists Rohin Dharmakumar and Praveen Gopal Krishnan, Two by Two will feature guests and experts from across the industry and academia to talk about issues no one else is talking about.

Information

  • Channel
    The Ken
  • Creator
    The Ken
  • Years Active
    2024 - 2026
  • Episodes
    128
  • Rating
    Clean
  • Copyright
    © (c) 2024 The Ken
  • Show Website
    Two by Two

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