Two by Two

The Two by Two podcast is a premium business podcast from The Ken that investigates, discusses and breaks down the most important business stories around you. Hosted from The Ken's newsroom by business journalists Rohin Dharmakumar and Praveen Gopal Krishnan, Two by Two will feature guests and experts from across the industry and academia to talk about issues no one else is talking about.

  1. 2 Jul

    India’s biggest companies can afford to build frontier AI. So why won’t they?

    Three things happened in eleven days.  The US ordered Anthropic to cut off its most powerful models for foreign users.  HCL Tech put $150 million into Sarvam.  And Mukesh Ambani told Reliance shareholders that India cannot keep renting its intelligence.  Everyone agrees India needs sovereign AI. And yet, almost nobody agrees on who should pay for it. Most of the money that is moving into AI goes into data centres, the safest layer, not the models themselves. Praveen Gopal Krishnan makes the argument that corporate India has to build and fund the country's foundation models because the state can't do so at scale and the market hasn't chosen to. In this episode, he poses this argument to two guests — one a public policy expert, and the other an AI investor, builder and entrepreneur.  Nitin Pai is co-founder and director of Takshashila Institution, India's largest independent public policy school. Manav Garg built Eka Software from India and sold it to a US private equity firm, co-founded Together Fund and AI Bhumi, and is now executive chairman at Emergent — an Indian AI company whose product runs entirely on foundation models it doesn't own.  Both Nitin and Manav push back from two different directions and describe the incentives that keep conglomerates out of anything that doesn't compound quarter over quarter, and why the unit that matters isn't the company but the builder willing to take the risk inside it.

    India’s biggest companies can afford to build frontier AI. So why won’t they?
  2. 25 Jun

    The Meta–Cred–Kunal Shah deal, stripped to its fewest assumptions

    In the 48 hours since Meta announced it was putting $900 million into Cred and taking Kunal Shah to run WhatsApp globally, you've probably read a dozen confident explanations of what it all means. Praveen and Rohin don't have one. That's the point of this episode. Because the people who actually know aren't talking, investors have liquidation preferences to protect. Operators have relationships on both sides. Insiders have NDAs.  So instead of adding a 13th theory, this episode refuses to start with one. The only tool is Occam's Razor: when explanations compete, take the one that needs the fewest new assumptions, and make the grander stories earn their place. And Praveen and Rohin come into this episode, both having done their own reporting first calls to investors, operators, and ex-Cred and ex-Meta people — and try to figure out the most commonsensical answer to the calculation between Meta, Cred and Kunal Shah. Then they work through their questions, one at a time: What is Meta actually paying for? The headline says an investment in Cred. But strip away the press-release language and ask what the $900 million is really doing — buying a fast-growing fintech, or buying one founder and giving his backers a graceful exit? Is this about Indian payments? The dominant read is that Meta has finally woken up to UPI. But WhatsApp already has the licences, Cred has almost no UPI share, and even the market leaders can't monetise it. So is India the prize here, or are we just assuming it because we're sitting in it? What happens to Cred now? Kunal Shah stays a shareholder, but he's no longer driving it. Once the founder who gave the company its aura — and its valuation — steps away, what's left? A profitable, regulated, lending-first fintech spoken of in the same breath as everyone else?  Why would Kunal Shah take this job?  And finally, who actually wins and loses from this deal? Every answer gets tested and countered. Then, at the very end, they break their own rule and tell you exactly what they think.  References * The Ken — “Where is Kunal Shah? Ask most Cred employees” (July 2024) — https://the-ken.com/story/where-is-kunal-shah-ask-most-cred-employees/ * The Ken — Two by Two: Why Stripe could not become the Stripe of India: https://the-ken.com/podcasts/two-by-two/why-couldnt-stripe-become-the-stripe-of-india/  * Bloomberg — https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2026-06-23/meta-s-cox-sought-shah-s-whatsapp-advice-then-made-him-leader

    The Meta–Cred–Kunal Shah deal, stripped to its fewest assumptions
  3. 18 Jun

    Agents changed everything about hiring except the outcome

    The newest way to build a new AI product is to say, “X is broken, and we fixed it using AI”. Well, hiring was probably broken, but AI didn’t change the outcome. Instead, it made it into an arms race where candidates are sold AI tools which help them apply to companies and roles en masse in an automated way. On the other side, recruiters who have increasingly gotten tired of the same AI-generated answers, resumes and artefacts that have been generated by AI have resorted to deploying AI systems to filter out candidates and get what they are looking for. And AI companies sit on both sides of the transaction, billing tokens while hiring outcomes come back to exactly where they were. The answer to fix hiring isn’t in deploying AI better, but in creating processes that abandon it altogether, or at the very least use it sparingly. Hiring needs to be more like a “love-marriage” with the candidate working with you as a live-in relationship. Instead, agents have made it more like an “arranged marriage”, where candidates have agents who create their profile, and agents who evaluate other profiles, before humans even meet each other. Instead of relatives and parents, the machines are doing the role and getting paid for it. Praveen takes this position and argues it against two founders who have gone all-in on incorporating machines and agents to "solve" for hiring. On the company side, Aakash Dharmadhikari, Co-founder of Realfast.ai, has adopted the approach where every candidate must spin up an agent and apply using it on their MCP for all technical and non-technical roles. On the candidate side, Saumil Tripathi, CEO of Grapevine, has created an agentic product called TAL, which helps candidates match and apply for jobs en masse. In this episode, both of these founders defend their approaches and argue that they have, in fact, solved hiring in their own ways, with better outcomes for companies and candidates. Guests: Aakash Dharmadhikari, Co-founder, Realfast.ai · Saumil Tripathi, CEO, Grapevine

    Agents changed everything about hiring except the outcome
  4. 11 Jun

    ‘Free the rupee. Let it go’—How to save the market from investors

    Everything around the Indian economy looks shaky, i.e., a months-long conflict, a sliding rupee, and a government telling people to stop buying gold. Except for one important caveat: India’s market continues to hold on. The Sensex and Nifty have barely moved.  The reason why that seems to be happening is pretty simple — every month, Indian households pour ₹31,000 crore into equity through SIP (Systematic Investment Plans), and that steady flow is exactly the liquidity foreign investors are using to sell down and leave without crashing anything. So the rupee slides, the RBI burns reserves to slow the fall, and the saver gets squeezed from both ends. Eventually, they are told to stay in the market and to stop buying gold.  Essentially, the Indian saver is not just holding the market up - they may be funding the exit. Praveen puts that thesis to two of the sharpest minds in Indian markets, and they spend the next ninety minutes taking it apart. Anupam Manur argues that foreigners are leaving for real, structural reasons and puts forward a “triple loss” argument, which says that propping up an overvalued market is the way because the Indian saver has nowhere else to go. Deepak Shenoy, on the other hand, argues we're worried about the wrong thing entirely: foreigners still hold most of their money here, we've seen this exact exit before, and the SIP saver isn't going anywhere. Where they land together is stranger than where they started, with specific fixes and policy changes that they’d do in this current situation. The most provocative one is the one that Deepak puts across - "Free the rupee. Let it go. It'll come back." This episode is a conversation about who really owns the Indian market, whether the SIP saver is a floor, and what India would actually have to do to break the loop. Guests Anupam Manur — Professor of Economics, Takshashila InstitutionDeepak Shenoy — Founder & CEO, Capitalmind References Anupam's piece: Taxing Mobile Capital and the Limits of Domestic Absorption (Takshashila)Deepak on X: @DeepakShenoy

    ‘Free the rupee. Let it go’—How to save the market from investors
  5. 25/12/2025

    2025 Year-end special

    2025 is done. Forty-eight episodes. Hundreds of guests. Endless banter between Rohin and Praveen. This year, Two by Two covered stories from Bengaluru to the world including business, tech, and everything in between. We didn't just stick to the usual. We asked about people, trends, and the things others weren't paying attention to. We brought on guests who didn't rehearse their answers and tried to make sense of things as they happened. Some episodes turned out to be prescient. Some were messy. Some sparked arguments in our inbox. All of them tried to do what we set out to do: spot hidden connections, ask unasked questions, and figure out what's really going on. This final episode is Rohin looking back at six moments from the year with clips from conversations that stood out. Between each one, he adds context and some behind-the-scenes perspective on why it mattered. Here are the episodes featured: Episode 26: Zomato, Swiggy, and the rise of the 10-minute "dark" caféEpisode 31: Airtel fights spammers. And Truecaller's business modelEpisode 47: Who broke Bengaluru, and how do we fix our cities?Episode 50: In an AI age, India does not have an open source strategyEpisode 51: The invisible whale that capsized India's leaky options boatsEpisode 66: What will bring ambition back from the dead?To everyone who listened, argued with us, sent guest suggestions, or just stuck around, thank you. Next year, we're coming back with everything that makes Two by Two what it is, but bigger and better. Maybe even a few surprises. Stay tuned. There won't be an episode next Thursday. We will return on January 8th, 2026. See you in the new year.________ This episode was produced by Uddantika Kashyap and mixed and mastered by Rajiv CN, our resident sound engineer. If you liked this episode of Two by Two, please share it with your friends, family and colleagues who would be interested in listening. If you have suggestions for guests, episodes or even changes we could make. Please write to us at twobytwo@the-ken.com or comment below.

    2025 Year-end special
  6. 18/12/2025

    60 seconds for every 2025 episode

    As we try to wind down this year, Rohin and Praveen do something they’ve never done before: go through every single episode they recorded this year. All 48 of them. In 60 minutes. The rules were simple. Each host had 10 points to build their personal top 10 list for the year. No take-backs, and no pre-discussion. It was a completely live, vibe-based recording where they figured it out as they went. What follows is a rapid-fire sprint through the year. From Amazon India’s struggles to the electric car slowdown, from B-school placements to the rise of quick commerce dark stores, and from Razorpay versus Juspay to the chaos of concert infrastructure in India. They cover it all—the hits, the misses, the prescient calls, and the episodes they wish had gone differently. Along the way, they debate whether episodes were too speculative, too early, or just not memorable enough. By the end, they’re locked in a tight race with only five episodes left and one point each remaining. Because it wouldn't be Two by Two without a matrix, we plotted the results of their debate. Take a look at the graphic to see which episodes they both loved (the green zone) versus their personal favourites. It is chaotic, nostalgic, and a perfect preview of what 2025 looked like through the lens of Two by Two. ______ This episode was produced by Uddantika Kashyap and mixed and mastered by Rajiv CN, our resident sound engineer. With 48 episodes in the books, this is the perfect starting point for anyone looking to catch up on the defining business stories of 2025. If you liked this sprint through the year, please share it with someone who loves a good deep dive. Have your own "vibe-based" arguments about our list? We’re all ears. Reach out at twobytwo@the-ken.com or leave a comment.

    60 seconds for every 2025 episode
  7. 26/12/2024 ·  Bonus

    2024 Year-end special

    Welcome to the year-end special edition of Two by Two. We’ve released 22 episodes of Two by Two since our inaugural edition in July.  We’ve covered an incredible breadth of counterintuitive topics framed as, well, two by twos.  Would Flipkart become Phonepe before Phonepe became Flipkart? Did Delhi prick Bengaluru’s bubble? Is the golden era of the software engineer over? Why is health insurance broken? How will Ola and Uber avoid ‘death by a thousand cuts’? Why is Zepto behaving like a gold medallist? Can venture capitalists do no wrong? Dmart versus the challengers at the gates. AI and the impending disruption of Indian SaaS.  We’ve had incredible fun exploring these ideas with a bunch of really sharp, experienced and opinionated guests.  Finding guests who don’t hesitate to speak their minds and state unpopular truths has been one of the hardest things. Far, far tougher than finding interesting topics. We owe all our guests a huge thanks for trusting us. Far too many professionals and leaders prefer to stick to rehearsed and predictable talking points in public these days. We’d started Two by Two with the ambition to operate at the intersection of curiosity and synthesis. Each week, we said we’d spot the hidden connections and unasked questions. We’d identify the cast of players and their motivations.  We’d bring in incredible people to discuss these with. We’d try to answer simple yet fundamental questions like, what is going on, why is it happening, who gains and who loses, and where is all of this leading to? By always asking questions. Always connecting the dots. Always being unfiltered and uninhibited. We wanted Two by Two to be ‘your personal investigative brain’.  In 2025 we hope to make Two by Two even more interesting and unpredictable. Yes, at its core it will still be a weekly podcast. But I’m excited at the possibility of doing so much more by involving our subscribers, listeners and readers in these endeavours.  We want to make Two by Two ‘our collective investigative brain’.  And hosts Rohin Dharmakumar and Praveen Gopal Krishnan will continue to do so with a new episode every Thursday. To listen to all episodes of Two by Two, consider subscribing to The Ken’s Premium plan, which in addition to the podcast, will also get you access to our long-form stories, Premium newsletters and visual stories. If you just want access to Two by Two, you can do that as well on Apple Podcasts with a paid subscription. Two by Two is also a free weekly newsletter published every Friday. You can sign up for it here.   Listen to all Two by Two episodes here: 1. Will Flipkart become Phonepe before Phonepe becomes Flipkart? - https://the-ken.com/podcasts/two-by-two/will-flipkart-become-phonepe-before-phonepe-becomes-flipkart/ 2. Why has all the excitement and disruption gone out of startups? - https://the-ken.com/podcasts/two-by-two/why-has-all-the-excitement-and-disruption-gone-out-of-startups/ 3. Is Zepto a gold medallist or a bronze medallist? - https://the-ken.com/podcasts/two-by-two/is-zepto-a-gold-medalist-or-a-bronze-medalist/ 4. Delhi pricked the Bengaluru bubble -  https://the-ken.com/podcasts/two-by-two/delhi-pricked-the-bangalore-bubble/ 5. Swiggy needs to reclaim its past glory - https://the-ken.com/podcasts/two-by-two/swiggy-needs-to-reclaim-its-past-glory/ 6. Is the golden era of the (software) engineer over? - https://the-ken.com/podcasts/two-by-two/is-the-golden-era-of-the-software-engineer-over/ 7. Google Pay: Big. Successful. Vulnerable - https://the-ken.com/podcasts/two-by-two/google-pay-big-successful-vulnerable/ 8. Private coaching is eating away at schooling - https://the-ken.com/podcasts/two-by-two/private-coaching-is-eating-away-at-schooling/ 9. Why Stripe could not become the Stripe of India? - https://the-ken.com/podcasts/two-by-two/why-couldnt-stripe-become-the-stripe-of-india/ 10. Health insurance in India is ripe for disruption - https://the-ken.com/podcasts/two-by-two/health-insurance-is-ripe-for-disruption/ 11. Netflix and its last growth market - https://the-ken.com/podcasts/two-by-two/netflixs-last-growth-market/ 12. Ather Energy was a pioneer. Can it also be a leader? - https://the-ken.com/podcasts/two-by-two/ather-energy-was-a-pioneer-can-it-also-be-a-leader/ 13. Do we even need Product Managers? - https://the-ken.com/podcasts/two-by-two/do-we-even-need-product-managers/ 14. How will Ola and Uber avoid ‘death by a thousand cuts’? - https://the-ken.com/podcasts/two-by-two/how-will-ola-and-uber-avoid-death-by-a-thousand-cuts/ 15. The relentless rise of the government as a competitor - https://the-ken.com/podcasts/two-by-two/the-relentless-rise-of-the-government-as-a-competitor/ 16. What does the future hold for Ola Electric? - https://the-ken.com/podcasts/two-by-two/what-does-ola-electrics-future-hold/ 17. Can venture capitalists do no wrong? - https://the-ken.com/podcasts/two-by-two/can-venture-capitalists-do-no-wrong/ 18. Dmart versus the challengers at the gate - https://the-ken.com/podcasts/two-by-two/dmart-versus-the-challengers-at-the-gate/ 19. Marketing is eating itself from the inside - https://the-ken.com/podcasts/two-by-two/marketing-is-eating-i...

    2024 Year-end special
  8. 31/10/2024 ·  Bonus

    Happy Deepavali!

    Happy Deepavali, dear listeners! On account of Deepavali, the Two by Two team is also taking a small break. But don't worry; we'll be back with our regular programming next week. Until then, you can always listen to past episodes of Two by Two that you haven't gotten around to yet. If you're a Premium subscriber listening to this on The Ken’s mobile app or on Apple podcasts, you can just scroll down and listen to any of our episodes in their full, unedited form. On the other hand, if you aren’t a premium subscriber yet, you can listen to one of our older episodes which we’ve unlocked for you.  In fact, in the latest unlocked episode, we argue, debate, and discuss what Netflix needs to do to win in its last growth market — India. Netflix's last growth market. (Full republished episode for free users available on Spotify | Apple Podcasts | Amazon Music | Youtube) By the way, if you’re in the mood for something other than two-by-twos and business models, why don’t you head over to Daybreak, The Ken’s daily podcast? Just last week, our colleagues Snigdha and Rahel did an amazing episode where they spoke to multiple people to understand why women freeze their eggs. Successful women are freezing their eggs. And that's on men. (Spotify | Apple Podcasts | Amazon Music | YouTube Music) If you have suggestions for potential future episodes, we’re all ears. We’re also all ears if you have recommendations for interesting guests we can invite to the show—guests who know their stuff and aren’t afraid to speak their minds, even if it goes against conventional wisdom. Write to us at twobytwo@the-ken.com.

    Happy Deepavali!

About

The Two by Two podcast is a premium business podcast from The Ken that investigates, discusses and breaks down the most important business stories around you. Hosted from The Ken's newsroom by business journalists Rohin Dharmakumar and Praveen Gopal Krishnan, Two by Two will feature guests and experts from across the industry and academia to talk about issues no one else is talking about.

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