The John Poelstra Show

John Poelstra
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  1. 04/22/2025

    133: How to Handle a Demanding Boss Without Burning Out

    A previous client asks for help navigating their own burn out while dealing with a demanding boss. Here’s my advice on managing stress, dealing with demanding bosses, and finding sustainable ways to recharge. I look at the importance of questioning assumptions, setting boundaries, and experimenting with new approaches to reclaim control over one’s work-life balance. Considerations You can’t keep pumping air into the metaphorical balloon; it will eventually pop Does constant pressure need to be “managed?” Stop comparing your limits to others; everyone has different constraints Saying no is a powerful tool for reducing stress and workload Team agreements can clarify communication norms and reduce ambiguity Test small changes like turning off your phone for short periods to gauge the impact Meditation isn’t a one-size-fits-all solution; explore other recharging methods Write down all of the assumptions you have about your situation and question their validity Experiment with scenarios that challenge your fears (e.g., being unavailable and seeing what happens) Ask yourself what your current situation is doing to your body, soul, and relationships Consider whether your job aligns with what you want in life long-term Challenge the belief that you must always be available or risk losing your job Agreements are better than expectations—collaborate with others on clear terms Test turning off Slack or disabling presence indicators to reduce pressure Sustainable productivity requires intentional boundaries, not cheat codes Physical symptoms of stress often signal deeper issues; don’t ignore them If nothing changes in your current situation, consider the long-term consequences on your health and happiness Reach out for help or coaching if you’re stuck—there’s always something new to try ## Related Episodes – [Plugging Time Leaks to Honor Commitments (117)](https://johnpoelstra.com/time-leaks-commitment-117/) — plugging time leaks – [Reflections on the Book Peak Performance (28)](https://johnpoelstra.com/peak-performance-book-028/) — stress, rest and avoiding burnout – [Exploring The Coaching Habit with Ken Dreyer (99)](https://johnpoelstra.com/coaching-habit-ken-dreyer-99/) — agreements versus expectations Credits Hallon by Christian Bjoerklund Cold Funk by Kevin MacLeod Photo by Bernard Hermant on Unsplash All songs licensed under Creative Commons ## Transcript *This transcript was created automatically and may contain small errors.* The context of today’s topic is brought to us by a former client. By the way, I love hearing from former clients. It never happens too much, ever. So if you are one of those former clients, coachees, whatever you want to call yourself, and you’re kind of Kind of itching to send me an update or ask me a question or whatever. There’s no way that you can impose or inconvenience me if that’s your story. It’s impossible. So feel free to reach out. If you have my email address, email me. If you don’t have my email address, message me on LinkedIn. I prefer email to LinkedIn, but whatever you got, use it. I would love to hear from you. I love hearing from people because they are often in situations that I also find myself in, which is I think that I have 2 bad choices. And what I continue to see over and over and over and over again, the people that I coach and being coached myself, is when I think there’s only 2 bad choices, I usually have like a 3rd and a 4th choice. And so that’s kind of what we’re playing with here today. So this person reached out to share some great news in a text message, and we went back and forth a little bit and I think they had mentioned my podcast or something. And as I often do with people, I said, hey, do you have anything that would be useful to talk about on my podcast? Is there a question you would like me to answer? And I didn’t hear from them for a while. And I thought, oh, I guess they don’t have any questions. Okay. And then I got this wonderful email. And so we went back and forth on email in a little more detail. And I’m going to read some of their questions here. And then give my thoughts on them. So the context for this person is it’s the holidays. They’re expecting to get a break after a brutal year. They’re looking forward to a number of days off in a row where they can just recharge, relax, regroup, whatever the case might be. And instead of that happening, they had a number of unforeseen interruptions. They had someone that resigned from their position, and so they needed to get on the phone with their boss to sort that out, and any number of other things that popped up that they felt compelled to respond to. Background or context here too is this person’s boss is, sounds like very high energy, works at a very high level, works a number of hours, doesn’t take very much time off. And there is either an implicit or explicit expectation that this person work at the same level. So he has a feeling that he has to be as available and as on and as working as hard as his boss. And he’s starting to feel like maybe that’s not sustainable. So he sent me roughly some questions and then I went back to him and said, okay, Can you distill this down into exactly what your questions are? And if you had any conversations, coaching conversations with me, you know that I often will say, okay, so you’ve shared a lot of things here. What is the question? And so they wrote me back with 5 specific questions that I will answer to the best of my ability here. Now, before I answer the questions, a very important disclaimer. I coach people in these environments a lot. I have been in similar, but maybe not to the same degree, high-intensity environments as this. I was earlier in my career, and I have consciously opted out of these environments and no longer work in them by my own choice. And I feel like that’s important to say so that if you hear my answers here as lacking compassion or real-world possibility, I believe it is. And I respect the fact that everyone’s circumstances are different and we each make our own choices. And prioritize things differently. So the first question here is, with modern technology meaning we are contactable far outside the 8 to 5 every day, including weekends and vacations, combined with an instant lifestyle that society has developed into, how on earth can we manage this constant pressure? What comes to me here is the image of a balloon. Or a steel cylinder, some type of closed system that you could pump air into. And it seems to me that at a certain point, you can only put so much— well, we’ll just use the example of a balloon. You can only put so much air into a balloon before it pops. So in some ways, I read this question as How do we keep putting air in a balloon and the balloon not pop? And my response to this is, well, there’s an assumption that we must continue to put air into the balloon. And I would question that. I would also question the viability or the possibility of a balloon that can take an infinite amount of air without popping. I don’t think it’s possible. So the first thing around this question that I would be questioning is, do you have to manage the constant pressure? Can it even be managed? Or are you trying to manage something that can’t be managed? Second question. When we feel stressed, we feel overwhelmed with the volume of issues that need to be addressed in addition to prioritizing What other effective techniques can be employed to deal with getting through it? Is there anything that can start to close the tap rather than just deal with an ever-increasing set of demanding tasks? And I would say, again, sitting on the outside, there’s probably an opportunity to say no to certain things that maybe is not being exercised. Maybe. Because as the last part of this sentence says, is there anything that can start to close the tap rather than just deal with an ever-increasing set of demands and tasks? I’m potentially reading into this, but the assumption that you can just deal with an ever-increasing set of demands and tasks infinitely, I’ve never seen that work. There are constraints. We all have limitations. Now, I’ve worked with people in investment banking that work hours and travel to a degree that I cannot fathom. That would not work for me. I just don’t get it. And yet they do it. I think each person’s constraints and limits are different. Perhaps the first false step here is comparing our own constraints to someone else’s and using that as the measure. That might be one place to look. But when I think about this question, I just say, if we’re thinking of a balloon that can only hold so much air, yes, at a certain point, you have to stop putting air in the balloon. The third question here is dealing with a frenzied boss without being career limiting or simply leaving the role. How can we manage up When someone expects the same level of activity from their team that they show themselves. I would come at this one a couple of different ways. One, I would come at it from the question of, how do we know this is true? Has this person sat down with their boss and said, hey, I noticed you never take any vacations. I noticed that you work 12 to 14 hours a day. Do you have the same level of expectation from all the people that work for you? Now, I’ve also worked in situations and for people where having this conversation would be a major career-limiting move. I’m imagining— I was never in investment banking. I was in public accounting. Banking and those environments could be somewhat intense, but not to the same level of investment banking. Yes. Could you sit down with your boss in an investment banking situation and say, these 80- to 100-hour work weeks, I noticed that you’re working that much. Do I have to? Yeah, that would probably be the end of that situation. I get that.

  2. 03/22/2025

    132: Not Your Mother’s Library with Sarah Johnson

    Sarah Johnson is a library science educator and social worker. She joins me to explain the evolving role of public libraries in modern society. Sarah highlights how libraries have transformed from quiet book repositories into vibrant community hubs addressing diverse needs, from providing Wi-Fi and e-resources to offering social services like legal aid, health information, and even showers for unhoused individuals. Sarah explains that libraries are often the last free public spaces where people can gather without needing to spend money, making them essential yet increasingly complex environments. Sarah also shares her unique career path from social work and massage therapy to academic librarianship, emphasizing how her passion for learning and community service shaped her journey. She discusses the concept of “library social work,” which integrates social work principles into library operations to address challenges like homelessness, mental health crises, and safety concerns in public libraries. Through examples like San Francisco’s pioneering library social worker program, she illustrates how libraries can partner with community organizations to better serve patrons while supporting overburdened staff. Highlights Libraries have evolved into community hubs providing far more than books Public libraries often serve as the last free public spaces accessible to everyone Many librarians lack formal training in handling social issues like homelessness or mental health crises Academic librarians typically require advanced degrees, unlike many public library staff Public libraries provide critical resources like Wi-Fi, job search tools, and legal aid E-book usage has surged, keeping libraries relevant in the digital age Serendipitous browsing—discovering books by walking the stacks—is a unique joy that digital catalogs struggle to replicate Libraries play vital roles during crises, such as providing resources during natural disasters or pandemics Social workers in libraries help connect patrons with external services rather than solving systemic issues alone San Francisco was the first U.S. city to hire a full-time library social worker in 2009 Library staff often experience burnout due to increasing demands and insufficient training Trauma-informed care and de-escalation strategies are becoming essential skills for librarians Children’s librarians emphasize physical books over e-books for developmental benefits Libraries often partner with local organizations to offer tailored programs based on community needs COVID-19 exacerbated challenges in public libraries, increasing chaos in some urban branches Libraries are increasingly vibrant but face safety concerns due to their open-door policies Modern libraries cater to diverse populations through multilingual resources and inclusive programming Book banning controversies highlight the ongoing cultural significance of libraries Peer navigator programs offer an alternative model for addressing patron needs without relying solely on social workers Many communities invest heavily in renovating library facilities, reflecting their continued relevance Academic librarianship allows professionals to combine teaching, research, and direct student engagement Libraries must balance being welcoming spaces with ensuring safety for all patrons Advocacy for library funding and leadership is crucial for maintaining thriving public spaces Librarians Face a Crisis of Violence and Abuse (NY Times) Follow More of Sarah Johnson’s Work Substack Author of Creating a Person-Centered Library: Best Practices for Supporting High-Needs Patrons The Library Social Work Podcast Instagram LinkedIn Credits Hallon by Christian Bjoerklund Cold Funk by Kevin MacLeod All songs licensed under Creative Commons ## Transcript *This transcript was created automatically and may contain small errors.* **John:** Today I’m speaking with Sarah Johnson. Sarah came into my presence a few weeks ago. She was visiting my wife. They’ve been lifelong— not lifelong, but friends for a very long time. And she was in Portland for a conference for librarians, which I didn’t quite understand and was very interesting to me and caught my interest because libraries have an incredibly special place in my heart. Maybe we’ll get to that. So without any further ado, Sarah, thanks for joining me today. **Sarah:** You’re super welcome. Thanks for asking me. **John:** So what, what is a, what, what do librarians do at a conference and what, like, I’m so curious. **Sarah:** Well, this particular conference was a very small one. So it was for library educators. So professors that teach in a graduate school of library and information science. Just for comparison versus the mega conference of all librarian conferences is the American Library Association, which I’ve been to and I’ve heard garners about 20,000 to 25,000 attendees. That number might be off a little bit. So that’s all kinds of librarians, right? Public, archivists, academic, where the one that I was at was just for professors of library— people who are getting their master’s in library science. **John:** And why— I have a very— I don’t know. When I see the library, I see the person behind the reference desk, and they help me find things sometimes. What is there to— **Sarah:** Why do you need a master’s? **John:** Yeah. I was like, how can I ask this question without being offensive? **Sarah:** But **John:** what goes on behind that reference desk that most of us humans have no idea of? **Sarah:** Right. So another clarification is, so the librarian that you see at your local public library may not have a master’s in library science. I mean, to you, they’re all librarians. Yeah. But if we can break that down, you have your librarians that have got their MLS or MLIS, which is Master of Library Science or Master of Library and Information Science. And now some schools call it other things, but we’ll just say MLS. So, and those are the proper term for them would be librarians, right? So everyone else would be known as Library staff. So that could be someone that started out as a page, you know, shelving books, and now they’ve worked their way up to working at the reference desk, the circulation desk, they do programming, they may even be an administrator. But you are not required typically to have a degree in library science to work at a public library. Generally, you do need one to be a library director or an administrator, but those rules are kind of changing a little bit. So, however, when you go outside of public libraries, and most of my experience is in academic libraries, you tend to need a master’s in library science. And Yeah. Another step from that would be like the university that I was at in New York for many years, we were considered faculty. So, and that’s not true at all academic libraries, and I won’t go on and on about this, but there I needed 2 master’s degrees to even be on a tenure track. You get into archives, rare books, you know, you could be a corporate librarian. Generally, you need a master’s degree for that, but for your Everyday public library, you might not necessarily need one. It depends on the role that you’re in. So when you see that person behind the reference desk, they might not have a library degree, but they may need one. And I can get into what we study at library school. Now, keep in mind that I went to library school almost, I don’t know, 15, 16 years ago, so I don’t have my curriculum memorized, but I can speak generally about what you learn there. **John:** So what I heard an interesting distinction there, an academic library versus a public library. What’s the difference? **Sarah:** So an academic library, so you work in academia, so you work in an institution of higher education. So that would be at a 2 to 4 year university. So I was at Hunter College in New York City. I’ve also worked at a local community college here in Cincinnati. It’s also different— sorry, different from a school librarian. So your son at his high school, maybe he has a school librarian or, you know, someone that works at an elementary school. So there’s different facets, there’s different kind of tasks, responsibilities, programming that you might do at all those different types of libraries. **John:** What drew you into this? Because I know you’ve had— I think you were a massage therapist, you were a social worker. How did we get here? **Sarah:** Yeah, it was a long circuitous path. And so what drew me to it— so yes, I started out in social work and got my master’s in social work, worked in that field for a couple years, have since maintained my licensure. So I do my continuing education, and I’ll get more into this later, but I Yeah. I still interact with the world of social work a lot. Yes, I did a detour as a massage therapist, which is a whole separate story. It involved moving country and different places, and massage therapy was a great short-term profession that I had, but I knew that I wanted to kind of Yeah. —be in a professional line again, and I didn’t want to go back to being a practicing social worker. So I’ll try to keep this short, but basically I was going through a lot of soul-searching in my early 30s, and I was speaking with a friend who is an English professor, and I was just kind of venting about like, oh, I don’t know what I want to do. And she asked me what everybody was asking me at that time, like, what do you enjoy? And just kind of in this flood of frustration, I was like, you know what I like to do? I like to watch documentaries and I like to look at Wikipedia and I like to do— and I was just kind of saying these things that I kind of just do in my spare time. It wasn’t things that I enjoyed in a professional realm necessarily. And she just really calmly looked at me and she was like, oh, so th

  3. 12/06/2024

    131: Career Coaching Isn’t a Crystal Ball with Tammi Scott

    Tammi Scott joins me to discusses career coaching. Tammi explains that she and her business partner, Elisa, are launching Empowered Careers Group, LLC, which offers a comprehensive career coaching program. We explore various aspects of career coaching, including its definition, approach, and benefits. Tammi emphasizes that career coaching is not about providing a “crystal ball’ solution,” but rather a process of self-discovery and strategic planning. This conversation also touches on the role of AI in career coaching, the importance of networking, and the typical duration of coaching engagements. Tammi highlights the value of having a coach for accountability, support, and guidance through the ups and downs of career transitions. We also discuss the differences between career coaching and other forms of guidance, such as personal training or consulting. Tammi shares insights on resume writing, negotiation strategies, and the benefits of having a career coach. Our conversation challenges the common misconception that career coaches should provide immediate answers or specific job recommendations. Instead, Tammi describes career coaching as a facilitated journey of self-discovery, where clients explore their ideal work environment, values, and professional aspirations. While coaches can provide specific guidance on resumes and salary negotiations, the core work involves helping clients understand themselves better to make informed career decisions. Key Points Career coaching is not about getting quick answers but facilitating self-discovery Most effective career coaching engagements last 3-6 months Career coaches don’t provide magic solutions or guaranteed career paths The process involves creating a clear picture of your ideal work day Resume writing receives more direct guidance than other coaching areas AI tools can complement but not replace career coaching Career coaching involves accountability and consistent support Coaches help surface limiting beliefs and handle rejection Career coaching combines internal reflection with practical action steps Career coaches help clients understand their values and preferences The best career management is ongoing, not reactive Contact Tammi Scott TammiScott.com LinkedIn ## Related Episodes – [Improve Your Job Search with Email: Tammi Scott (127)](https://johnpoelstra.com/improve-job-search-email-tammi-scott-127/) — my first conversation with Tammi – [Searching for a Job in Today’s Market with Greg Sterling (123)](https://johnpoelstra.com/job-search-greg-sterling-123/) — Greg Sterling on today’s job market – [How I Came to Coaching and How it Works (82)](https://johnpoelstra.com/how-coaching-works-82/) — how coaching works Credits Hallon by Christian Bjoerklund Cold Funk by Kevin MacLeod All songs licensed under Creative Commons ## Transcript *This transcript was created automatically and may contain small errors.* **John:** Alright, today we’re talking to Tammi Scott once again. Tammi, thanks for joining me again. **Tammi:** It’s good to be here. **John:** So I reached out to Tammi again because of a few convergences, the first of which, if you haven’t listened to Tammi’s episode about, uh, sending— like, if you’re in the job search or you’re making a transition or something, if you have not done that and you’re entertaining the idea, or it sounded like a good idea but you haven’t quite done it. I have one person I’m working with right now, Tammi. They sent it out before they were ready. They had 8— they’ve set up 8 meetings, and one of the people they met with so far has referred them to 4 other people. **Tammi:** That’s really impressive. And just to give some more context for anybody who hasn’t listened to that episode yet, we’re talking about the like the networking email that goes out to your contact list, your people you know, and your family, your friends, colleagues, person at the grocery store, whoever. **John:** Yes, yes. And the context of this too is, oh, maybe I’m looking to do something new, or I’m transitioning jobs, or I’m unemployed, or whatever the case may be, and you’ve tried applying for 1,000 jobs on LinkedIn and nothing’s happening. And what was great about this one was I shared your episode. I shared an example of your email. They said, oh, I’m totally going to do this. And then you could see all the little like, well, I’m working on it, but you know, I need to get a little— because they’re in kind of this transition of I was doing one thing, I took a break, and now I’m going to start ramping up and looking for the next thing that’s maybe the same thing but different. And so they said, well, I need to get a little clearer. I need to get a little clearer before I send this out. And I said, well, I’m a real fan of starting as soon as you can. So what if this is just the first email? It’s just a warmup and you’re just saying hi for the first time in a long time and you just start there. **Tammi:** Yes. **John:** Okay. Okay. I’ll try that. And then when they came back and said, you’re not going to believe this, but 8 people, I don’t know if it was 8 people responded, Or 8? Well, I know they, they have 8 meetings on their calendar to meet with 8 different people as a result of sending this email without even being completely clear about what they want to do next, even though they’re getting clearer anyway. So, yeah. **Tammi:** That’s awesome. That’s awesome. I love those stories. **John:** Yes. So today I wanted to talk to you because I keep coming across this notion of career coaching And you and I had— I had been wondering when I was going to get the latest installment of your email because I hadn’t seen it in a while. And all of a sudden it said you said that you were doing a new business— or not a new business, you’ve been coaching forever— but you were doing something around career coaching. So I want you to tell people what that is, and then I have some questions about career coaching I wanted to get into. **Tammi:** Absolutely, yes. So As you know, I’ve been coaching for years, and my coaching continues to evolve as I do. And I’ve been doing executive coaching for quite a while. And then a friend of mine who was also a former work colleague, she’s an HR executive. So, the two of us, she had worked with a career coach who’s very well known in the industry, and he’s retired. And he developed this great system to take his clients through for 3 months, 6 months. And it’s a very complete system in terms of really diving into what is going, you know, for somebody to get more clear about what’s important to them, you know, and know themselves better so that he can help them in those next stages of their transition, you know, whatever their next career strategy is. And so we are actually gonna be— we’re in the process of working through the contract, but we’re acquiring that program and we’re gonna make it ours. And so we’re in the process of a pre-launch of our company called Career Potential Group, LLC. And our intention is to take that program make it ours and help a lot of clients in the area of career coaching, career strategy, career management. I mean, there’s a lot of— there’s so many— some people think, oh, I’ve got my job, I can just rest on that. It’s like, no, no, don’t rest on that. Most people change jobs every 2 to 3 years. There’s no resting on that. And that would be the— there are some exceptions, of course, But for most people, that’s not the case. So, don’t wanna just rest for 2 years and then all of a sudden be like, oh my gosh, I don’t know where to begin. **John:** So, what made me think of you as well was what I’m calling the career coach— career coaching crystal ball, which is any number of different ways someone might get referred to me. And I will ask them, you know, what can I help you with? Or sometimes I get a little bit of a kind of a pre-thing is that this is what this person’s And I recently had a situation where someone wanted some very specific guidance based on— they have several years of experience. They wanted very specific guidance as to what they should do next, where they should look, what would be a fit for them. And the more we talked over email before we had a first meeting, I always do a first few meetings with people before we really officially work together just to see if we’re a fit. And they opted out. And because as I started to say, well, you know, why don’t we— we could also look at your values. That could be a place we could look. And they said, you know what? I’ve already done a lot of that work. I don’t want to do that. I am looking for someone that will tell me what to do or where I should look. Because I had been very clear saying, I don’t give specific or explicit Career advice. So that got me to wondering, okay, coaching can be a very ambiguous term. It’s used in lots of different ways. There’s no official definition. But it got me to wondering, what is career coaching? How do you define it? Does career coaching— does— is there a crystal ball? Like, are there coaches? Are there people that look in a crystal ball or pull tarot cards or are like so experienced in life that they know every single career that’s possible out there, that you can just like meet with them, consult with them, and they will say, here’s what you should do. And you’ll— I don’t know if they give any guarantees they’d be happy or anything. But anyway, those are all the things that are kind of swimming around over here in terms of what can you— how can you help me clarify what this is, what you think of it, what you think is possible? This is a horrible question. I’m asking you like 55 questions here at once, so you can pick the one you like. And then to add on to all of this, I even took this to m

  4. 09/08/2024

    130: Katherine Krupka’s Path from Diplomacy to Healing

    Katherine Krupka shares her unconventional journey from the Russian Embassy to energy healing. She’s an energy healer, interfaith minister, coach and Executive Director of the Energy Medicine Professional Association. Our conversation reveals Katherine’s fascinating background, including her adventures working at the embassy in Moscow during the fall of the Berlin Wall, her involvement in privatization efforts with the World Bank and consulting projects with oligarchs in Russia. Katherine shares how her rock bottom moments led her to exploration of raw food, naturopathy, yoga, and meditation. She provides insights into how how healing works and how she helps clients. As a life-long learner, she’s presently focused on a deep study of human consciousness. Learn More About Katherine Krupka Website LinkedIn Credits Hallon by Christian Bjoerklund Cold Funk by Kevin MacLeod All songs licensed under Creative Commons ## Transcript *This transcript was created automatically and may contain small errors.* **John:** Alright. Today I’m talking to Katherine Krupka. We met at a conference in 2018. It was Rick Tamlyn’s Bigger Game Conference, I believe. And there are so many things about Katherine that are fascinating to me that we— I don’t even know where to start. So. Thanks for joining me today, Catherine. **Katherine:** It’s a pleasure. I’m really excited. **John:** When we met in 2018, it was— I can still remember it. We were standing in the little like dessert area of this happy hour thing, and I had forced myself— I always force myself to go to those things for 15, 20 minutes. I have to show up and meet whoever’s there, and then I can go back to my room and do my thing. **Katherine:** I’m the same way. So it was meant to be. **John:** And so it was Catherine and this other lady named Lisa. I don’t know. I can see her last name in my mind, but I don’t know how to say it. Did you know her before or did you? **Katherine:** No. **John:** Okay. So we’re standing there. Somehow we get to talking about stuff and Catherine starts talking about her energy work. And I’m like, whoa, I don’t know what this energy stuff is. This is kind of— she’s talking about like clearing this space where she shares with this other practitioner. And I’m like, oh, this is even weirder, but okay. And then somehow we started talking about meditation and it was hilarious that you’re my first meditation teacher. So, so, so, so you and Lisa were talking about meditation and I’m like, okay, well, I’m open to trying this. What would I, what would I do? And it was so, I still remember it. You were standing there and you’re like, you’re like, okay, let me sense into this. And you’re like, Okay. 8 minutes. I think 8 minutes would be— I was like, wow, this lady is like, I don’t know what she’s tuned into, but she’s like connected to something here. She’s like, 8 minutes. I think 8 minutes. Yeah. I’m like, what about 10? You’re like, well, 10 would be better, but 8. I think you said 2 times a day. And I don’t know, the rest was history. I ended up doing it for, I don’t know, some unbroken streak of time. So. That’s like the longest intro ever as to how I met you. But tell people, who’s Catherine? What’s Catherine up to in the world? **Katherine:** Well, that’s a tough question. I do work with people doing a variety of what might be called energy work and coaching together. And I always sort of joke that there are 3 of us in the session. There’s me, there’s the client, and there’s their highest wisdom, their all-knowing self. And one of the things we really do in our work together is go through all the stuff we get to do to really get them a nice solid connection to that higher wisdom. And And, you know, I’ll play with it also and help them really live from there, right? Where, you know, the normal thinking stuff and all the stuff we do is, of course, always there. But to get greater access, greater, a greater sense of identification and therefore like default mode, right? At that wiser, higher, whatever word you want to use, level, that point of access. And And then we’re creating from there, right? And, you know, I actually hit— I come from the corporate world and diplomacy and the corporate world. And, you know, I got into all this stuff for my own healing, honestly, right? I, you know, hit rock bottom myself, which is how most people get into this kind of work, right? Is we have our own crisis. And And so I, I really sort of hid it, you know, it’s like, oh, look, I’m just an executive coach. Oh, look, I’m a naturopath. Oh, look, I’m, you know, I, oh yeah, I teach some yoga. Oh yeah, I, you know, do some meditation, but I really, I kept it hidden for a very long time. I mean, I still do, honestly, actually, just to be completely, completely honest. Not anymore. I still, right? I’m sort of coming out as woo here on this podcast and Because I, you know, it’s easy to think, oh, you know, all these people in my previous world, all the, you know, business executives, the government leaders, all these sort of people would think I’m just a nutcase, right? I would not be taken seriously. I couldn’t get a meeting with anybody. No one would want to speak to me. But what I’m finding, partly on my own, but even more through other people, a woman I know does intuition training and she’s She’s working with CEOs. She’s like out there. And I think people are getting that this is like a new cutting edge, right? Like in the ’80s it was exercise and you’ll, you’ll do better, you’ll perform better in your work. Remember that, right? It was just sort of coming into conscious, like exercise would actually help your business or help your performance. And then it was like, oh, if you eat the right foods, oh, if you do this, if you do this. And I think we’re at the point finally where people are recognizing that that next frontier, I don’t know if you want to call it that, is the inner. You know, it’s the inner stuff that we, that we get to play with and the vast resources that exist for us, um, when we tap deeper internally rather than looking externally. **John:** Now you’re also an interfaith minister, is that right? **Katherine:** Yes, I am. **John:** And you also run a couple of associations. So what else, what else do you do that we don’t know about? **Katherine:** So I get bored easily, which is why I like to keep different parts of my brain active and different parts of my system engaged in, in different things. I still keep a wee little toe in international consulting, business consulting work. Uh, I do run a professional association for healers and coaches, and I am an interfaith minister, but I, I mean, I’ll do ceremonies, but that isn’t my focus. My focus with that really is as we are tuning deeper internally, for a lot of people that touches on the spiritual and can either bump up against old religious systems, right? The, you know, birth religion of origin type situation against which a lot of people have rebelled at some point in their lives or been injured in some way through their lives. So there’s a lot of repair, uh, and healing that gets to go on there in order for someone to access deeper spiritual potentials, clearer spirituality, not connected to religion necessarily, but that gets to happen in order for them to move forward spiritually. Or people recognize that they’re on a spiritual path And it can be very helpful to bring in some of their own tradition into our exploration or into the practices that we might use for them. When I was in seminary, actually, it was very interesting because I was raised Catholic and like many rebelled completely and even was researching how do I get— how can I leave the church? And I realized the only way you can leave is to join another church, which I had no interest in doing, or to be excommunicated, which is not not easy to do. It’s not, it’s not easy to be excommunicated. So I thought, well, you know, I, I wanted to leave, but I couldn’t actually leave, which is kind of interesting, right? But if you’re, if you’re raised in something, and the Catholic Church is a perfect example because they’re so focused on ritual and, uh, you know, indoctrination and all of that, they’ve really got that down. If you wanted to learn how to do that, they’d be a great case study, actually. Uh, so I, you know, I rebelled, I left, as many people do. And in seminary, someone was talking, one of our, our teachers, uh, was talking about how there’s a great benefit in returning to your faith of origin. And we all just bristled, right? I mean, if you’re going to become an interfaith minister, you’re doing it because you’re not interested in any specific church or not, especially not the one you grew up in, right? Church or tradition, right? I mean, we have people of all faiths who were there. So, uh, so I really, I bristled, but then, but I also got it because that is already, it’s, it’s in there, you know, it’s in our muscle memory. You can say it’s in our DNA. It certainly is in our collective, uh, memory and those patterns that our system is working with. Uh, it’s, you know, it’s our parents, grandparents, great-grandparents, et cetera, et cetera. And it’s the culture. And if you grew up in a community of faith, then it’s just in the water that you were drinking. So no matter what the faith is, there is a benefit to going back to it and looking at it with fresh eyes. For me, that meant, you know, I don’t, I’m not interested in the institution of the church, but the teachings of the mystics are pretty amazing. I mean, there’s a lot there, right? And the early teachings of the faith are very, very powerful. And I don’t, I still don’t consider myself Catholic, but there’s an awful lot of richness there, right? If you, when

  5. 08/20/2024

    129: Fusing 40 Years of HR, Leadership Development and Life Lessons with Mark Rumbles

    Mark Rumbles reflects on his career of 40 years, what he’s learned in the leadership development space and what’s next for him. Mark recently retired after 40 years in HR and leadership development. Mark and I discuss his career journey, the concept of retirement, and insights gained from his extensive experience developing leaders. This conversation touches on various topics, including mentorship, career planning, motivation, and the challenges of leadership development. Mark shares his perspective on career transitions, emphasizing the importance of curiosity, relationship-building, and maintaining a flexible approach to one’s career path. He also discusses his current interests post-retirement, including exploring podcasting and working towards fostering more civil discourse in society. Throughout the conversation, Mark offers his insights on leadership, personal growth, and navigating career challenges. Key Takeaways Careers are more like arcs than rigid plans, requiring flexibility and adaptability Effective mentorship often develops organically through relationship-building Leadership development is about influencing factors that bring out internal motivation Follow the fear, energy, and incentives to understand and overcome challenges Retirement doesn’t mean stopping; it’s a transition to new opportunities and discoveries Relationship-building is crucial for career success and personal growth Curiosity is a key driver for personal and professional development The term “networking” can feel manipulative; focus on genuine relationship-building instead Leadership development is a fusion of various approaches and frameworks Behavior is a language that often speaks louder than words Self-reflection is crucial for aligning one’s words and actions Fear often stems from a desire to preserve one’s identity or self-image Motivation is complex and can’t be directly controlled by others Balance is essential in leadership, knowing when to debate and when to act Civil discourse and the ability to disagree respectfully are valuable skills Career transitions can involve multiple steps (e.g., full-time to part-time to retirement) Volunteering (e.g., joining a condo board) can be a way to stay engaged post-retirement The concept of “career” is often misunderstood and over-emphasized HR practices have shaped how people think about careers, sometimes unrealistically Podcasting can be an alternative to writing a book for sharing ideas and experiences Leadership development aims to bring out the best in people and help them bring out the best in others Understanding one’s “wiring” and sources of joy is crucial for career satisfaction Early career experiences, even if unenjoyable, can provide valuable foundations The balance between debating ideas and executing decisions is crucial in organizations Connect with Mark Rumbles LinkedIn ## Related Episodes – [How to Make Networking Humane (40)](https://johnpoelstra.com/humane-networking-040/) — making networking humane – [Career Coaching Isn’t a Crystal Ball with Tammi Scott (131)](https://johnpoelstra.com/career-coaching-crystal-ball-tammi-scott-131/) — career coaching with Tammi Scott – [Exploring The Coaching Habit with Ken Dreyer (99)](https://johnpoelstra.com/coaching-habit-ken-dreyer-99/) — coaching instead of advice when you’re a mentor Credits Hallon by Christian Bjoerklund Cold Funk by Kevin MacLeod All songs licensed under Creative Commons ## Transcript *This transcript was created automatically and may contain small errors.* **John:** Today, I’m talking to Mark Rumbles. Mark and I overlapped at Red Hat, and he was instrumental in introducing me to people in the wider coaching community at Red Hat, which was, I guess, sort of emerging at the time. Maybe we’ll get into that. Mark recently retired and we had the chance to catch up. And during that call, he asked me about podcasting, which is always a dangerous question because Usually when people ask me about podcasting, I say, well, why don’t we just do it? So it was a couple of days later when I was thinking about Mark and careers and retirement that I thought, oh, I got the perfect thing I want to talk to him about. So I asked him if he’d join me and he said he would. So, um, we’ll probably get into, well, I guess the thing that really caught my attention was, was a career and what is a career and all that kind of stuff. So we’ll get into that in a second. But anyway, thanks for joining me today, Mark. **Mark:** My pleasure, John. I appreciate the invitation. **John:** So who is Mark and what are you up to? **Mark:** Wow. Let’s start with a real big open-ended question. I’ll try to simplify. I’m retired, as you mentioned. I spent about 40 years in the general HR community within my work. But for the vast majority of my time, I focused on leadership development by choice and by opportunity. That was the opportunity that kept coming to me, was to dive deep into that field of leadership development. I recently made the decision that I’d done enough at that point in time in terms of a regular paid job, retired effective May 1st, and have been enjoying the last, uh, 6 weeks of figuring out what it is to be a retiree, though I don’t love that word. **John:** It’s fresh. **Mark:** Talk about that. It’s fresh. **John:** Let’s go there right away. What’s wrong with the word retiree? **Mark:** Now, so let me just say this. Anybody who uses that, I don’t have a problem with that. I think for me, it’s the, it’s the idea That you’re leaving something and stopping. And I don’t feel like I ever want to stop. I would say I am in this seasonal transition from being a full-time employee, even though I was a part-time employee before I left. That’s a— that’s another subject. So my transition was actually 2 transitions, full-time to a part-time, and then And part-time to this retirement phase. So, I think that that’s where I’m coming from, that I never want to stop learning. That’s why when this invitation came from you, I jumped on it because I have something to learn and maybe people have a few things to learn from me. And I’ve learned a lot from you. **John:** So, 40 years of leadership development. How did it begin? How did it evolve? And I have so many questions about this. **Mark:** Well, again, just for the sake of our listeners, I’ll do sort of the executive version. But I always knew that I was interested in human behavior, specifically relationships among people and how to create and foster you know, positive relationships. So I majored in psychology, and then I went and did graduate studies in a couple of different areas. One was I got my master’s in human resource development. And so I think I always knew that that was something I wanted to do. And so I kind of fell into an HR My first job was actually in recruiting, which was in a state university system in Illinois. And so there really wasn’t much recruiting. There was just more interviewing going on at that point in time. So I don’t think I learned how to recruit anybody and was very fortunate to have a mentor who took an interest in me. And so I think that’s one thing that I would— maybe we talk about at some point too, the importance of a mentor. I didn’t really go out and search for that person. They sort of found me, and that was very helpful. And this individual was the head of HR for the University of Illinois. And he just, again, took sort of an interest in me as a young person starting off in this field. He orchestrated probably the first 2 or 3 moves for me within the HR arena. And I did some jobs that I hated, but I realized later that they were super important to building a foundation. But it wasn’t until the middle part of my career that I discovered there was this whole area of leadership development. The interest that I had at that point in time was I felt like that was the highest and greatest leverage point for me to have an influence within an organization, if I could have an opportunity to work with leaders within the organization. So, you know, there’s a lot more to that story, but that’s kind of the very broad arc. **John:** And what brought you to Red Hat? **Mark:** One of my other transitions was I left a full-time job to start my own company. And one thing you’ll learn about me is I maybe have a few gifts. One of them is not timing, because I started the same sort of gig that you’re doing now, but I started it in 2008, in the middle of the Great Recession. Not great timing, but I was just ready, and I had, I had sort of built a platform for that time in my life. And so I spent 5 years doing coaching, HR consulting, working in that arena under my own shingle, and did that for— I committed to doing that for 5 years. And during that time, the last year or so of that, I got connected with some people at Red Hat. And I started doing what I call kind of— it’s the equivalent of ghostwriting for somebody. But there was a bunch of leadership development going on at Red Hat. I knew somebody who was contracted to work with Red Hat, and they needed some help. And so I did a lot of work helping this individual with the project that she was hired for. And it became— more and more and more and more to the point where she said, Mark, I really feel like I need to tell Red Hat who I’m working with. And so, and this person, I don’t mind naming her, her name is Deborah Mangum, probably the world’s greatest coach that I’ve ever met. And so, she was very instrumental in introducing me to Red Hat. And at that point in time, I’d met my 5-year commitment. I was ready to go back and work with colleagues and rub shoulders with people. It can be a little bit lonely out there when you’re doing your own thing. And so one thing led to another. They offered me an opportunity, and I took it, and I stayed at

  6. 08/03/2024

    128: Demystifying AI with Doug Hunter

    Doug Hunter and I discuss artificial intelligence (AI), including how it works, its impact on various aspects of life and work and how to get started with it. Doug provides an overview of AI, distinguishing between classical AI and the more recent generative AI. Doug also explains how AI works on probabilities and patterns, and discusses its current capabilities and limitations. Our conversation covers the potential applications of AI in fields such as marketing, customer service, education, and coaching. Doug emphasizes the importance of understanding and adapting to AI technologies, while also highlighting some of the risks and ethical concerns. He suggests practical ways for individuals and businesses to start using AI tools and advises on how to approach AI integration strategically. Key Takeaways AI is changing lives in ways many don’t realize; those who don’t adapt risk being left behind Generative AI has democratized access to AI capabilities for the general public AI operates on probabilities and patterns, not true understanding or knowledge There are potential risks with AI, including hallucinations and copyright infringement AI can significantly enhance productivity in various fields, including marketing and customer service The nature of many jobs, including coaching, may change due to AI integration AI tutors could revolutionize education by providing personalized, 24/7 learning assistance Humans should remain “in the loop” when using AI, treating it like a smart intern rather than an infallible authority AI’s impact on jobs will be significant, but historical technological advances suggest adaptation is possible Learning to write effective prompts for AI will be a crucial skill in the future AI can help make educational outcomes more equitable by providing resources to underserved areas The concept of artificial general intelligence (AGI) and its potential implications are still theoretical AI models are rapidly improving, with multimodal capabilities becoming more common There are ongoing discussions about potential rights for AI systems AI can be used as a tool to overcome barriers to effectiveness in various professions Using AI effectively could allow professionals to take on more clients or work more efficiently AI’s ability to find patterns in complex data sets can lead to insights humans might miss The ethical implications of AI, including privacy concerns, are significant and ongoing AI may not be able to replicate human creativity and intuition fully Job postings in the future may require fluency in AI tools AI can be used for creative tasks, such as generating bedtime stories or unique images Understanding the limitations of AI is as important as knowing its capabilities AI could potentially replace some front-line customer service jobs while making remaining roles more complex Experimentation with AI tools is crucial for understanding their potential and limitations AI’s impact may be more profound and widespread than previous technological revolutions AI Resources Mentioned Perplexity (AI search tool) ChatGPT Google Gemini Claude (Anthropic’s model) DALL-E (image generation) Midjourney (image generation) Sora (video generation) Whisper and Claude for content repurposing (Christopher Penn) More About Doug Hunter LinkedIn PeakPointSolutions.pro   Credits Hallon by Christian Bjoerklund Cold Funk by Kevin MacLeod All songs licensed under Creative Commons ## Transcript *This transcript was created automatically and may contain small errors.* **John:** Today I’m talking to Doug Hunter about AI. Doug recently led an excellent webinar along with Mike Terry, who runs Core Digital Consulting. They gave a really good practical overview to AI, primarily focused on marketers. Now, I’m not really a marketer, but I’ve been on the sidelines of AI and not particularly interested in it. Until, I don’t know, maybe 6 months ago when I started playing around with Perplexity for doing web searches. And then I used Claude 2 to summarize some podcast episodes using a technique demonstrated by Christopher Penn. So I wanted to follow my curiosity today and I thought, why not talk to Doug, get a little bit more about this whole AI thing, his thoughts, his perspectives. And just a little background on Doug. Doug is currently the principal at Peak Solutions, a marketing and strategy consultancy in Portland, Oregon. Before that, he was Vice President of Marketing at Arjunta. Before that, he had held a number of senior roles at Lattice Semiconductor. And prior to that, he was a consultant at the Boston Consulting Group. Thanks for joining me today, Doug. **Doug:** Thanks, John. Thanks for having me on. **John:** So AI, what does it even mean? We— it’s like in the news everywhere. Everyone’s talking about AI. What is it? And yeah, why should I care? **Doug:** You should care because it’s changing your life and you don’t even know it. And if you don’t keep up, you’ll get left behind. Um, so what is this thing doing that to you? I— yeah, when you think about— we toss around the phrase AI and never really think about it in the same way I think we toss around the phrase IBM and never actually think what IBM means, or any one of the other acronyms that we have kicking around. Um, artificial intelligence is actually a really descriptive phrase, meaning, um, it’s artificial. It’s not real. It’s, it’s not a sentient human being that’s doing the thinking or showing the intelligence. It’s a machine. It’s a computer. It’s a computer doing things in a way that look or seem human. That, that, that’s a very philosophical description of it. On a very practical level, AI is really about probabilities. It’s calculating probabilities of this and probabilities of that. And AI is not new. AI has been around for 20, 30, 40 years, and it’s only recently come into kind of popular consciousness because of the rise of generative AI. So what I’ll call classical AI, you know, for example, back at Lattice, we had a web database of 400,000 visitors to our website where we had cookies on them and we had tracks of their behavior. And of the 400,000, only about 100,000 people were where they had given us their contact information and we knew what their market segment was, which was important because we were differentiating people’s experience based on what their marketing segment was. If you’re coming from the consumer industry, you’ll get shown different content than someone who’s coming from computing or industrial. But again, remember, we only had 100,000 out of the 400,000 people who we knew what their end market was. So for those other 300,000, we hired a firm to use AI, artificial intelligence, to calculate the probability of what market segment these other 300K were so we could assign a market segment to them even though, you know, we didn’t know for sure, but we knew what was most likely so we could tailor the experience so they’d likely have a better experience, be more likely to engage with us and buy. So that was something that I did with AI, geez, 10 years ago, 15 years ago, long before GenAI ever came around. And so AI was really the domain of people who were data scientists and worked with sophisticated algorithms behind closed doors. And, you know, it was just this kind of a secret black box. And to some extent it still is. But the difference is with GenAI, GenAI has democratized access to AI in the sense of you and I, if you have a phone or a computer, you have the ability to use and access AI and to do things that were never thought of as possible years and years ago. And so generative AI, again, as the name implies, is something that generates data. So for example, you talked about using Perplexity in your intro. You know, it generates an answer, it generates new data in answer to your query. But what’s interesting is it’s typically not new data. It’s old data that’s been presented in a new way to you. It’s been presented in a way that mirrors the query that you gave it. So in some sense, the AI is a very complex— think of it, you can almost think of it as like a complex Google search where instead of getting 126,278 results, you get one. And, you know, and you just have to trust that it’s telling you the truth, which given the hallucination rates of these things, you just don’t know. But it’s getting better and it’s enabling things that just weren’t possible just a year ago or even 3 years ago. **John:** So when you say generative AI, we’re talking ChatGPT, Perplexity Cloud 2, 3? **Doug:** Yeah, and you can think of some broad, broad swaths. So things like Perplexity, ChatGPT specialize on words. Um, things like DALL-E, Midjourney specialize on images. Something like Sora specializes on video. I think there’s something called Sonos maybe specializes in audio. So any, any way that a human interacts— visual, audio, written— they’re finding ways to use AI to generate additional content in that type of form. And what you’re also seeing is the rise of what’s called pure or native multimodal. So for example, there would be a model that would just do text, or a model that would just do image, or a model that would just do video. And then we get more sophisticated— I’m using air quotes here that your listeners can’t see— And what they— and what it does is the models initially were— it’s like a text model that calls a video model. And now they’re reaching the point where it’s one model that can do both text and video, and not just on the output, on the input as well. So in things like ChatGPT-4o, their latest iteration, you can upload a screenshot of a graph, and then you can use text to ask the model questions about the graph or to convert the graph into a data table. Or you can take an Excel spreadsheet and you can load it up and ask it to give you a graph on the outpu

  7. 07/08/2024

    127: Improve Your Job Search with Email: Tammi Scott

    Tammi Scott shares her unique approach to finding new job opportunities by emailing people she knows. Tammi and I were a money coaches together at Capital One. Tammi shares insights from her extensive coaching background, including her experience at Nordstrom selling shoes. She emphasizes the critical role of building and maintaining professional relationships during a job search. One of Tammi’s key strategies is sending regular email updates to her network, sharing her progress, goals, and offering mutual support. This approach not only keeps her connections informed but also fosters ongoing engagement. We also explore the importance of aligning personal values with career decisions and the benefits of combining traditional online job applications with proactive networking efforts. Key Insights Combining online applications with networking efforts improves job search results Understanding personal values helps in finding suitable job opportunities Career coaching can provide valuable insights and strategies for job seekers Regular practice and continuous learning are essential in careers and personal interests Offering mutual support in networking efforts creates goodwill Tracking networking efforts and job applications is important Previous work experiences, even in different fields, can provide transferable skills Providing an easy opt-out option in networking emails shows respect for recipients Balancing online job applications with in-person networking yields better results Curiosity and willingness to learn can lead to unexpected opportunities Sharing specific job interests and companies in networking emails facilitates connections Regular updates to your network keep you top-of-mind for opportunities Contact Tammi Scott TammiScott.com LinkedIn ## Related Episodes – [Career Coaching Isn’t a Crystal Ball with Tammi Scott (131)](https://johnpoelstra.com/career-coaching-crystal-ball-tammi-scott-131/) — Tammi back to talk about career coaching – [Avoiding Networking and Job Search Futility with Stephen Warley (125)](https://johnpoelstra.com/avoiding-networking-job-search-futility-stephen-warley-125/) — Stephen Warley on networking – [Searching for a Job in Today’s Market with Greg Sterling (123)](https://johnpoelstra.com/job-search-greg-sterling-123/) — Greg Sterling’s job search Credits Hallon by Christian Bjoerklund Cold Funk by Kevin MacLeod All songs licensed under Creative Commons ## Transcript *This transcript was created automatically and may contain small errors.* **John:** Alright, today I’m talking to Tammi Scott. Tammi and I met as money coaches at Capital One in— I think it was a long time ago, 2019 or so. So Tammi is, is currently doing— well, she’ll— I’ll let her explain in her own words— a sort of job search. And she sent me a newsletter the other day that totally caught my attention, and I wanted to talk to her about it because I thought that it could help other people that are looking for jobs. And we’ll probably get to that in a little bit. But before we do, Tammi, good to see you today. **Tammi:** Yeah, it’s good to see you too, John. And it was 2018 that we started with Capital One together. **John:** Whoa. **Tammi:** I know. **John:** And you were in Southern California. I was in— well, I still am in Oregon. And where do you find yourself today? **Tammi:** I find myself up in the Pacific Northwest, just north of you in Washington State. In the greater Seattle area. **John:** And tell— set a little background, like, who are you? What are you up to? Why did you send me this newsletter? **Tammi:** Oh, big questions that you’re asking. It’s great. Um, so yeah, so I’ve been, I’ve been coaching really since I finished my coaching certification back in 2005, but I knew nothing about building a coaching practice at that time. So I, I did my best and I just kept my foot in the— kept my one foot in the water in coaching and then went on to work at other jobs in corporate America and other nonprofit organizations over the many years. And then after Capital One, so that was focused more on money coaching, although, you know, it included a lot of their lives besides money, as you know. And I got into, I started doing more executive coaching. And I love executive coaching. I love working with leaders. And so that just morphed into doing a lot of collaborating with some other coaches, doing some training and like leadership training in a few different companies, pharmaceutical and also in the healthcare industry. And this year, I was thinking I really miss working with a team. So I thought, I think I want to get back to maybe a job as a coach, like as an internal in an organization. So I hired a career coach, somebody I know, and started on that exploration. And it’s been very— it’s a very revealing process. It’s been great. And the networking email that I sent you was part of the process of sending out an email that says, here’s what I’m up to. Here’s why you’re getting this email, because I trust you. You’re part of my support system. And then what I did as part of the email is is also include companies I’m applying to, what I’m up to, how can you help me, and then how can I help you? So it’s a very generative kind of an email to keep the energy of the whole process moving forward. **John:** So what was most revealing? **Tammi:** What was most— in terms of the— **John:** Well, you said you set out to work with this career coach, and the process has been very revealing. **Tammi:** Oh, yeah. So it really helps to start looking at, like, what do I value? Where am I at today? Because we all evolve, right, over our career process, like our whole career journey. I mean, you think about who we were at 20, 30, 40, depending on what age you’re at. I’m in the next decade. **John:** I was wondering if you were going to **Tammi:** say— Yes, I’m in the next decade. Yes. And so who I am today is very different than who I was even 5 years ago. And so this process has been helpful to uncover like, you know, what’s important to me, how, like what kind of workday, who do I wanna work with? What kind of culture do I see myself working in? Do I wanna have direct reports and be in that kind of leadership? Or do I want to be a solo inside of an organization? You know, all those questions. And it’s just been very clarifying. **John:** What’s something surprising you’ve learned? **Tammi:** I think what came to light in this process, and I don’t know if it was completely surprising, is how much I enjoy collaborating with others. And I think that’s what I most have missed in being in having my own coaching business. And even though So I have clients that I’m working with, and I certainly network with other coaches. And there’s something like for me that’s really fun about collaborating and creating together and generating something together. Like, I love that process. **John:** So when you trained as a coach in 2005, where— what type of collaborations were you doing then? **Tammi:** I don’t think I was doing any collaboration at that time. I mean, I finished the whole coaching certification process. I graduated, I got certified. Then I happened to be involved in some different groups of workshops that I did and participated in or volunteer work that I did. And so I would meet people and Then we would— there, maybe somebody was looking for coaching, or we would have a conversation. It led to, uh, having a, a coaching relationship together. Um, it was more at that time, it was more like, I hope I’m gonna get another client. But it— I didn’t have any— I didn’t have that, um, that structure To, or, or anything, any understanding of what it actually takes to build a coaching practice as a business. And so I, I thought if I keep going— when I was doing it back then, I thought if I keep going the way I’m going, I’m probably going to be, uh, on the, on the street pretty soon. **John:** Now I have in the back of my mind you worked at Nordstrom’s, is that right? **Tammi:** I did. **John:** And you loved that job for some reason. **Tammi:** I did. I— and this was after getting my coaching certification, so I think I started at Nordstrom maybe a few years later. I, I, I was only gonna go work at Nordstrom for a few months, but I thought, well, it’s commission, it’s a great company, I can sell shoes, I can make good— some good money while I’m figuring out what’s next. And I loved it so much, I ended up staying there for 5 and a half years. And I found that everything I’d learned in my coaching school— and I also did before that, I did a master’s in spiritual psychology— everything that I’d learned in, in both of those programs, I, I really— it helped me in relating to my customers at Nordstrom. And so I built up quite a customer following, I guess is one word way to put it. So I had quite a customer list that I would call on, you know, on this special occasion. And it was something about how I related to them and how I, that level of listening that I had with them that really enhanced our relationship, you know, them as my customer. And so that really was very fulfilling. And I also loved selling shoes. Like there was just something, you know, when I put a shoe on somebody and it has the right fit and the feel and the look that they’re looking for, it’s like the whole, it’s like their whole being lights up. You know, similar to a coaching experience. It’s like when something lands for somebody and they have this insight and you can see it in their whole being, then like, you know, that there’s a special note has been sounded. **John:** And you would see that fitting people for shoes? **Tammi:** I did. **John:** That’s so beautiful. **Tammi:** I did. And I also had a— this— an acceptance for people, women, And I don’t know

  8. 05/14/2024

    126: Out of the Job Hive, Into the Beehive: Nick Accordino’s Layoff to Apiary Tale

    Nick Accordino shares the emotional rollercoaster of being laid-off, searching for a new job, and landing a new fulfilling role. Key Takeaways Take conscious breaks from the job search process to recharge when needed. Look for opportunities aligned with your authentic values and passions. Focus your search locally to increase human connections. Craft targeted, personalized applications rather than generic submissions. Seek out volunteer experiences to reengage with your community. Be open to unconventional or surprising paths. Know when to pivot strategies if your current approach isn’t working. Job searching takes an intense emotional and mental toll. Not getting feedback from potential employers is demoralizing. Expect ups and downs – the process is a rollercoaster. Set a sustainable daily routine, likely only a few focused hours. Generic job boards yield a lot of noise and unhelpful opportunities. Losing your job can feel quietly disorienting at first. Take time to recenter on your identity outside work. Know your limits and don’t overcommit energy to any one opportunity. Even short breaks from routine tasks can provide perspective. Tap your local professional network for insights on roles. Look for transferable skills you can highlight for new paths. Combine personal interests with professional strengths. Small companies offer chances to wear multiple hats. Hands-on volunteering provides an engaging change of pace. Share your story and be open to others’ for mutual support. Get out of the house regularly to avoid isolation. Finding joy and flow in simple, repetitive work. Embrace serendipity when exploring options. Mentioned Bee Downtown website Bee Downtown Instagram Volunteer Match Other Title Possibilities Claude2 helped me with the title for this post. Here are the runner-ups which I thought were equally funny and creative. Stinging Insights: Nick Accordino on Life After Being Laid Off The Buzz on Bouncing Back: Nick Accordino’s Winding Path from Corporate to Bee Maven From Red Hat to Beehive: Nick Accordino’s Unexpected Career Pollination Corporate Refugee Finds Sweet Success with Bees: Nick Accordino’s Unlikely Pivot A New Honey Pot: Nick Accordino Rebuilds After a Layoff, One Bee at a Time The Birds, The Bees, and a Layoff: An Unconventional Metamorphosis for Nick Accordino Laid Off and Stung, But Not Down: Nick Accordino’s Apian Rebound From Pink Slip to Honey Dipper: How Nick Accordino Cultivated a Sweet New Career ## Related Episodes – [Searching for a Job in Today’s Market with Greg Sterling (123)](https://johnpoelstra.com/job-search-greg-sterling-123/) — Greg Sterling on searching after a layoff – [Avoiding Networking and Job Search Futility with Stephen Warley (125)](https://johnpoelstra.com/avoiding-networking-job-search-futility-stephen-warley-125/) — Stephen Warley on job search futility – [Career Coaching Isn’t a Crystal Ball with Tammi Scott (131)](https://johnpoelstra.com/career-coaching-crystal-ball-tammi-scott-131/) — Tammi Scott on career coaching Credits Hallon by Christian Bjoerklund Cold Funk by Kevin MacLeod All songs licensed under Creative Commons ## Transcript *This transcript was created automatically and may contain small errors.* **John:** Today I’m talking to Nick Accordino. Nick and I met at Red Hat a long time ago. Nick was working somewhere in finance and was trying to help me get some stuff done. And Nick helped me to bust the story that dealing with people in finance was difficult. Fast forward a few years, we ended up coaching together for about 6 months. And toward the end of that time, Nick found out that his job was disappearing. So we thought it’d be fun to have a conversation about what it’s like to get laid off, what that process is like, how Nick went through that process, and how he came out on the other side. So welcome, Nick. How are you doing today? **Nick:** Hey, John. Thanks for having me. I’m doing well. How are you? **John:** I’m well. So what’s going on these days? Where, where do you find yourself? **Nick:** Yeah, right now I find myself at a little company here in the Triangle, North Carolina called Bee Downtown. I’m working as a partnerships manager and working to basically connect companies that we work with to set up events and different types of like programming. And the whole business is we set up beehives at corporate campuses and then do lots of employee engagement. types of programming around that year-round. So that’s what I’m up to these days. Yeah. **John:** What’s in it for a company to have a beehive at their campus? **Nick:** I mean, besides for like the pure joy of having bees. Of getting stung? Yeah. Yeah. So there’s that. Yeah. So, I mean, these, these corporate campuses are typically pretty big, a lot of real estate, and they have these open spaces. And so there’s there’s, I guess, an environment ripe for bees, but also there’s employees who are looking for different ways to connect and do some team building and some bonding in different ways. And so it’s a way to not only utilize the physical space, but sort of use that as a jumping off point to bring people together, spark some connections, spark some joy. And really, it’s like this opportunity to sort of like learn a little bit of a lesson. from how bees work, teamwork principles, lots of biomimicry sort of lessons to be learned there and shared. **John:** So how involved does this get? I mean, and, you know, I know there’s like cooking classes and stuff. Like, do you like put on all the little white suits and the smoker thing and like take the beehives apart? **Nick:** We do that. **John:** Yeah. Really? **Nick:** We do tours. Yeah. So most of my teammates are beekeepers. And they lead those tours. And it’s really like very hands-on, very kinetic. And yeah, I mean, you’re in there learning kind of all different parts of a beehive, different types of bees. And then we have other sort of more hands-on programming that’s, I guess, less close to the bees, I guess I would say, but more like bee products. So beeswax, beeswax candles. different sort of honey-related honey tastings or honey camp as we call them. So there’s lots of, yeah, lots of different ways to go to, I guess, different directions to go in, but they’re all, it all starts with the bee and the power of sort of the hive mind or colony. Yeah. **John:** It sounds like the whole product lifecycle. **Nick:** Pretty much. Yeah, pretty much. I mean, they’re pretty integral to what us humans sort of rely on from a food Perspectives. Yeah. **John:** Now this is totally different than what you were doing before. If I recall correctly, you were like doing ServiceNow or something for Red Hat IT or something. **Nick:** Yeah, I’ve had a few different careers, I guess, before that, but this is completely different than what I was doing before. Yeah, that’s right. **John:** So it’s April 2023. You get the email, the text, the whatever that says, I’m guessing, come to a meeting of some sorts and you find out you don’t have a job. What happens next? **Nick:** It’s oddly quiet. I felt it was like an overwhelming sort of quietness, at least for me. I don’t know if it’s that intense sort of focus or attention that you put on that moment, but it all felt very quiet. I think for me, because we’ve been working together, it’s a lot of just recalling and sort of leaning into in that moment. Who am I? Like, what do I do? How am I supposed to act in this moment? Um, almost like finding your feet a little bit, but that’s, that’s how that first few hours or first day felt. Yeah. **John:** And then did you immediately like have to clean out your cube or whatever, or how did all that go? **Nick:** Uh, virtual cube, I guess. Yeah. We, we, we didn’t really have, um, At one point in time, Red Hat, I had a desk, like an assigned desk, but that was years before. So I didn’t, I don’t think I had anything at the office, just my at-home office. But yeah, so that felt a little bit funny. Like, yeah, I had my laptop and my, I guess, other work items, but those would soon be going back to Red Hat. So yeah. **John:** Yeah. And what was the process that you went through, like from— and let’s strike that. So from the time you got laid off in April, how long before you found new work? **Nick:** It was about 9 months. **John:** And what was that process like? **Nick:** It was at times a roller coaster. And at times a waiting game. There’s a lot of different things that happened in those 9 months. But yeah, I think for me, like, because I was— I knew I wanted to either— I guess I had multiple paths to go on, to sort of follow. I either wanted to continue on a path, do a bit of a tangent or something completely different. And I think in those 9 months, I tried a little bit of all the above. with varying degrees of success. But yeah, like over the course of those 9 months, I really tried a bunch of different things and really put myself out there and various forms of my resume and yeah, I guess my professional career at that point out there. **John:** What was the most unusual thing you did? **Nick:** The most unusual thing I did was probably I started volunteering at a local tourist office, tourism office. So I live in Durham and I’ve always taken an interest in just what’s happening around town, what’s new, what’s upcoming. And this organization, Discover Durham, is part of the tourism office for the city of Durham. I reached out to them and they had an opening on Tuesdays. And so for a good amount of time, I was there most Tuesday afternoons volunteering my time with people who are coming to visit our city here. That was probably the most out-there thing I did just because I don’t— I hadn’t worked in tourism before. And yeah, it But I really enjoyed that. It was like something that brought

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  • Creator
    John Poelstra
  • Years Active
    2016 - 2025
  • Episodes
    133
  • Rating
    Clean
  • Copyright
    Copyright © John Poelstra 2026
  • Show Website
    The John Poelstra Show